Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[Dushi]

I just checked my oxygen Channel schedule for tonight and it is on in 30 minutes! (Eastern time). For my area Comcast schedule is showing it at BOTH 7 p.m. and again at 9 p.m. tonight

PLEASE post about the show. I don't get it here

 

[heavenly2012]

I am waiting for the Oxygen series to start as well.

I am horrified if this is correct that people could not only bury someone, but dig them up later and cremate them. I'm interested to see how this pans out and I have hope and prayers the family can bring home something of her. Poor family going through this for 12 years I can't not imagin it.

 

[Bently]

Wow, I can't find Oxygen

is that the channel?

:seeya:

They may put it up free on their site. This has now previews.

http://www.oxygen.com/the-disappearance-of-natalee-holloway/videos

 

[NJ Lawyer]

I haven't been on this thread since a few days ago.. the above 2 items BBM, do you have link for your statements?

The information comes from a guy named Gabriel who is the person who told DH where he thought Natalie's (partial) remains could be found. Gabriel is the one who "befriended" John Ludwick (Joran's friend, even to this day) and according to Gabriel, John Ludwick gave Gabriel the location of the (partial) remains (the spot where DH ultimately went to and is claiming to have found human remains). According to Gabriel, John Ludwick told Gabriel that he (John) received $1,500 from Joran to dig up Natalie's remains and after that, they cremated the remains (which probably weren't all of them....they were relying on Ludwick's digging which probably wasn't thorough).

According to Gabriel, John Ludwick described the remains and said "There was two inches of black lard from the body... and her blond hair.”

If you Google that last quote, you can find the various sources for the statement. Terrible.

 

[LadyL]

(bbm)

wait ... are you saying you have experienced injustice in Aruba and personally know JVDS or are you speaking in a general sense

I am surprised to see the low volume of response to this story. Also, I don't think DH is doing this for publicity. He has always struck me as honorable. My guess is that he feels a great sense of injustice because of the corruption in Aruba. Unless a person has gone thru that (I have) you will never understand the need to shout from the rooftops. There are some things that can never be let go even though it would be more healthy to do so. I know what JVDS is. I have experienced it personally on a smaller scale. When people say why would JVDS say this or that to someone, there is no explaining what a socio/psychopath/pathological liar will do. It has been 2 years for me and I still can't wrap my brain around it. I hope it is Natalee and I think it is.

 

[Bently]

Dushi, I'll do more later... but something I didn't recall.

When he got the extortion money, and used it to go to Peru, and where VDS killed Stephanie, JOHN!!! the same John, went on Nancy Grace to support VDS after the murder.

SMH... This is the same guy that was besties with VDS supporting him on tv after the murder of Stephanie... the trip he was on with the extortion money for telling where the body was supposedly back in 2010

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm having a very difficult time copying a link on my phone but I'll tell you, you are correct that it was Natalie's father who had a judge declare her dead. You can google 'Natalie Holloway declared dead' and find the news articles.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk

 

[lonetraveler]

I just checked my oxygen Channel schedule for tonight and it is on in 30 minutes! (Eastern time). For my area Comcast schedule is showing it at BOTH 7 p.m. and again at 9 p.m. tonight

ETA: Andddddddd, it's running for the third time at 10 pm also. Three times in one night

Watching it now and feel so bad for Dave Holloway but admire his dedication to find his little girl's body and to seek justice for her.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk

 

[lonetraveler]

Gabriel told Dave Holloway information that Dave found out from the Kalpo brother's attorney that was not public knowledge. The exact place that Natalie and Joran were dropped off. There is also a video of John having a meltdown over Joran killing the girl in Peru saying she deserved being murdered by Joran because she "laid hands on Joran". Very disgusting to watch. John L. IMO, would definitely bury Natalie for his BFF Joran. He actually acts more like Joran's lover. This Oxygen feature is definitely worth watching and is very believable and trust me when I say I'm one of the most skeptical people alive.

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[NJ Lawyer]

Gabriel told Dave Holloway information that Dave found out from the Kalpo brother's attorney that was not public knowledge. The exact place that Natalie and Joran were dropped off. There is also a video of John having a meltdown over Joran killing the girl in Peru saying she deserved being murdered by Joran because she "laid hands on Joran". Very disgusting to watch. John L. IMO, would definitely bury Natalie for his BFF Joran. He actually acts more like Joran's lover. This Oxygen feature is definitely worth watching and is very believable and trust me when I say I'm one of the most skeptical people alive.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk

I've seen the footage (Nancy Grace show where John L. says the victim "provoked' Joran by asking him if "he was the one?") You know, it's one thing to see Joran so clearly missing a chip that not only does he kill 2 girls, but also toys with the victim's family (Beth). But to see the empathy/decency chip missing from SO MANY people involved in this case - that is the shocking part. Joran, yes. But also John L., who is on his FB page talking about how he's going to be on Oxygen soon and his "friends" are encouraging him to try and get a percentage of profit from the TV network (as if the $1,500 for digging poor Natalie up isn't enough??). And of course the Kalpo brothers - nobody stepping up to the plate. And all the profiteers who kept Dave and Beth in despair for many years. Shocking lack of empathy.

Here's the kicker -- even the Aruba Prosecutor's office is showing a sociopathic lack of empathy, too. One of the prosecutors said she heard Dave saying he found human remains but if that's true, "Removing human remains from Aruba would be illegal without authorization....If that happened, [our] ....office will consider criminal charges.” Really? No request that Dave give Aruba a chance to examine the remains despite the past issue, no expression of how tragic the whole incident has been, nothing. Just a threat to prosecute the victim's Father. Is there something in the water in Aruba that robs people of their humanity?

 

[Quiet Time]

They're showing Natalie on the ID channel also, on Directv...PST
It says 2017...I can't tell if it's new, or if I've seen it already.

 

[redheadedgal]

Am I remembering correctly that Natalee was declared dead a few years ago, but by only one parent against the wishes of the other? I'm sorry for not remembering the details. But I think it was Mr Holloway that did the declaring, and Beth was very unhappy about it. Please correct me if I'm wrong or have it turned around. The reason I bring this up is because I don't know if they really get along so well after all they've been through. And please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that as well. I am wrong quite frequently!

you are not wrong. i just really think IF this is natalee, they'd come together with that news. i could be wrong though...

 

[Rallibella]

Okay, just watched the first episode. It's clear why the prosecutor said "no human skeletal remains" and why Dave said that was a misstatement.

What he was told was that the body was dug up in 2010 by Joran and John, and taken to a cremation place. The body had been placed into a burlap bag, and when they found it, it was literally just sludge and bones. Gabriel led them to where the body was... he said it had been in such bad shape that there was likely still dna in the area due to the condition. Perhaps some skeletal material as well.

The police were shown in future clips basically saying none of this was true. However, Gabriel says that John told him the police were active in the coverup.

 

[lonetraveler]

I've seen the footage (Nancy Grace show where John L. says the victim "provoked' Joran by asking him if "he was the one?") You know, it's one thing to see Joran so clearly missing a chip that not only does he kill 2 girls, but also toys with the victim's family (Beth). But to see the empathy/decency chip missing from SO MANY people involved in this case - that is the shocking part. Joran, yes. But also John L., who is on his FB page talking about how he's going to be on Oxygen soon and his "friends" are encouraging him to try and get a percentage of profit from the TV network (as if the $1,500 for digging poor Natalie up isn't enough??). And of course the Kalpo brothers - nobody stepping up to the plate. And all the profiteers who kept Dave and Beth in despair for many years. Shocking lack of empathy.

Here's the kicker -- even the Aruba Prosecutor's office is showing a sociopathic lack of empathy, too. One of the prosecutors said she heard Dave saying he found human remains but if that's true, "Removing human remains from Aruba would be illegal without authorization....If that happened, [our] ....office will consider criminal charges.” Really? No request that Dave give Aruba a chance to examine the remains despite the past issue, no expression of how tragic the whole incident has been, nothing. Just a threat to prosecute the victim's Father. Is there something in the water in Aruba that robs people of their humanity?

Aruban officials have shown from the beginning of this case just how pathetic and useless they really are. Joran's father's position as a judge totally influenced the law enforcement officials. They are concerned about the removal of human remains by Dave Holloway but have not been concerned by Joran's involvement with doping Natalie and then covering up her death and disposal of her body. They aren't concerned with Joran and his father burying Natalie or John digging up her body and destroying evidence. Totally disgusting.

 

[Bently]

Meager attempt by me at some transcription/some paraphrasing/some the replay timed out at the end.


Starts with a snippet interview with John Ludwick on “March 26, 2017. Private investigator TJ Ward questions John Ludwick. Ludwick claims to have new information about the details of Natalee's remains. This information could finally provide the answers to questions the Holloway family has been asking for over 12 years. If confirmed, this could lead to a conviction and justice for Natalee”

“Today is Sunday, March 26, 2017. I'm here with John Ludwick, I'm a liscened private investigator, I've been hired by the Holloway family and have been working on this case for 12 years.
Q. How long have you known VDS?
A. Since 2010 when ? moved back to Aruba. (ED: but VDS was gone to Peru and killed Stephanie on May 30, 2010 – so he didn't know him for very long if they met in 2010)
Q. At what point in time did he ask you about doing something with the remains of Natalie Holloway?
A. It's not something I can pinpoint
Q. Listen to me John, ok, I know that you're not, ok, tell me the truth. Did you go by yourself? Did he go with you to dig the remains up? (ED: Yes, that is two questions at the same time, I rewound it THREE times... so answer that follows.. unsure of which question he is answering)
A. Yes
Q. Did you do something with the remains?
A. Yeah
Q. What did you do?
A. Ummm
Q Tell me the truth.
(John takes a drink of water, and places the glass of water loudly back on the table, squirms, looks up, sighs, and.....)

[Camera shot of interview now changes to Dave Holloway talking]

Dave talks about Natalie, and how the last time her saw her was with his current wife Robin and ex'wife Beth at her high school graduation. Shows Dave watching home movies from 1995 of Natalee. She studied so hard in school, had a scholorship, was going to be a medical doctor, and then 5 days later she was gone. The worst thing you can do is lose a child. I think about her every day. Sometime in Feb 2005 she asked him to pay ½ to go on trip to Aruba, they were booked at the Holiday Inn on the beach. He didn't realize that drinking age was 18.

The last night, when the club Carlos and Charlie's closed at one, her friends were going to go to another bar, Natalee got in the car with 3 local boys. One of the kids said Natalee, get outta the car. And I think that she thought that she was going back to the hotel. And that is the last piece of the storied verified to be true.

Next day at 11 am, friends were asking, where is Natalee as she misses her flight. He booked flight right away. The news media picked up on the story almost immediately. June 1 he arrived, and he headed to the nearest police station. Police said she would show up in a few days, that's what usually happens around here, she'll show up.

Deepak, Satish, and VDS were interviewed, and they said they took around the light house then took her to Holiday Inn. But the video shows she never showed up there. After he read the police reports, his concern was that those 3's couldn't get their stories straight. Any detective worth their salt would have broken these 3 kids.

Luckily the media stayed by our side. June 2 was a dune search and lots of posters handed out. The time I was there. Island is 19.6 miles x 6 miles. Only after 18 days they were arrested. The more mistakes, the more the media covered it. (showing media from that time...That gave them time to talk to VDS's dad and get their stories straight. ).

Numerous tips came in... folks talked about VDS missing sneaker when he came and was muddy. Tried to find the shoe. Another duct tape on July 17 found duct tape with blond hair by national park but proved not to be Natalee and was tested by FBI.

Police commissioner is God Father to VDS and best friends with his dad. It appeared to be a cover up from the beginning. Sep 3, 2005 they were let go.I was beaten down, there is nothing I can do about it. Over last 12 years we have followed up on leads, I cannot stop searching for Natalee. I started to have panic attacks, I thought I was going to have a heart attack. (ED: His pain is so evident)

Sep 2015 Dave got call unsolicited call from Gabe. I'm living with a guy that knows info, and knows where Natalee's remains are.

COMMERCIAL

 

[Bently]

COMMERCIAL - Part 2

Again, Dave talking. This new lead reminds me of old leads. We've got to follow all leads, and we do. Nov 22,2007 boat search, (FBI testing of clothing in crabtrap).. nov 2010 Jawbone...etc.

2010 DS (ED: Feb 10th 2017) dad died of heart attack on resort tennis court. The media started to question how this would affect the case. Since father protected his son, he was outta control, and soon after that contacted Beth atty in New York, and said for $250,000 said he would tell where the body was. He gave an agent, posing as a family representative, a location that later turned out to be false. He was indicted for extortion and wire fraud. ← Media Clips.

He used that money to fund his trip to Peru for 3 weeks, blew all his money, and 5 years to the day Natalee was killed he was back in the news that he had killed Stephany Flores.

[More media clips about how VDS confessed to Stephany … and Dave talks about Aruba had their shot to arrest him after the extortion]

After his father died, he hooked up with a guy named John as his main support. He even appeared on the Nancy Grace show defending VDS after he killed Stephany. [Shows clips of John saying he hope he gets out in ten years or less etc]

This guy Gabriel contacted me a few months back who said he knew a guy by the name of John, and he has some information that he knows where the remains of Natalee are. The fact that all the other leads were based on theories or speculation, this is first lead we have a person that states he knows someone directly involved with VDS and disposing of Natalees remains. And I thought, you know, maybe there is something to this. So I picked up the phone and I called TJ .

“My name is TJ Ward, and I'm a licensed private investigator here in the State of ? and I've been doing this for 36 years. In July of 2005, I commenced an investigation and was hired by the Holloway family to try to find their daughter, Natalee Holloway. [Old media clip...This is not a traffic ticket, this is a criminal investigation which will probably lead to murder...] and I haven't stopped working on it for 12 years now”.

…...................

Feb 7, 2017 Dave heads to Florida to meet Gabriel for the first time. Heading to Tampa .
Dave was contacted by Gabriel about John.

TJ believes what Gabriel said in an interview on May 29, 2016. In this interview, Gabriel says he knows John Ludwick, through another friend, that says he just bumped into him because I play a lot of poker. TJ asks Gabriel in this interview if he thinks John is being truthful, and he replies “It's 100%”

TJ says we started to gather information about John Ludwick, and we know he was in Aruba in 2010 as I've seen his passport. Gabriel wants to give closure to Dave and his family.

Dave talks about how he needs to continue searching and he just can't quit. How he has chased a lot of leads and how this is the most credible one.

… back to Feb 7 2017 Tampa Florida trip that Dave is taking to Tampa. TJ talks that Gabriel has gathered a lot of information. And TJ believes him, and says there is too much detail to not follow up. TJ shows John the May 29 interview with Gabriel

G. [referring to conversation with John] One day he goes, you know what, I want to get something off my chest. He goes have you ever seen me on tv? I go nope. Do you know the Natalee Holloway case and I said yes I do know. Do you know who this guy is, VDS? Nope. John told me he bumped into this guy VDS, and then they start hanging. Every single day, every single night. And one day he spilled the beans. He said that Natalee went to the beach with me, and He said she was foaming at the mouth, and he couldn't wake her up, and I tried and tried and tried as I was holding her and I called my dad, then him and his dad buried the body. And John goes what is going on.. and he goes I'll pay you $1,500 if you dig body up. I'm gonna take you, and we're gonna show you exactly where the body is at. He uncovered body in national forest, got cremated, and then in ocean. That is what John told me.

Dave talking...I don't know if I can handle if I find out this is all a hoax

Now back to Feb 8 2017 in Tampa where Dave meets with Gabriel

Gabriel says he's a father to 2 daughters and want to help.TJ wants to have Gabriel get evidence to turn over to the Aruba police

Gabriel knew John for 3 ½ -4 years before he opened up. I wasn't sure in the beginning but he told me more and more. He told me he went to Aruba cause he has an aunt living there. In Jan or Feb of 2010, he was walking into a store and bumped into VDS and he said “oh my God, I've seen you on tv blah blah blah I'd like to be your friend and then they started partying. So as VDS is getting more comfortable with him, he starts opening up to John.

He said night that she died“We got a ride to the hotel, walked to the beach on road by the Marriott, (not fisherman's hut)... he asked bartender for two drinks, two drinks and make it good. [Dave says I think he gave her GHB in an interjected shot] VDS says that as he was trying to kiss her, She was foaming in mouth, cause she was overdosing, and he panicked, he didn't even put her on her side or roll her over, she choked on her own vomit.

Dave asks if she died on her own, why did he try to cover it up if it was an accident. Gabriel says was scared. Dave mentions perhaps because of the GHB, and Gabriel says he did that with other girls. He called dad, dad was pissed. Dad went back to house and got burlap, doesn't fit, stomps on legs to crack her legs, and puts in burlap bag and folds her over and take in his car and takes to park, and covered with cactus. And dad says to not tell anyone. She died within 2 or three hours.

One day he says, look John they are going to find the body, I'll give you $1,500. He thought they were getting to close.. I'm going to write up a map . And was 3 eet down, and had decaying smell, I put the bag in my aunts car, and the bones were moldy and smelled, and 2 inches of black lard. And her long hair and bones were there. VDS had connections to morgue...and all the bones. J takes it and got cremated..goes back to VDS, and it was low tide and spread the ashes.

Gabriel says DNA should be DNA in aunts car carpet and where buried in national park.

Gabriel says it must be true as you cannot make this stuff up. You need to meet this guy as he … (lost a minute or two)

Q So you are 100% and no questions about it that what he says is true?
A. I'm 100%. There was police officials, there was judges, everybody who owns a little bit of the island had a part of this.
Q. So Deepak and Satish, the ones who were driving the car, any involvement on them
A. No
Q. What about police officers, did he name any names?
A. No, he says the police officers there are crooked. Very crooked. And he said they had to do a lot to cover it up, to save ?'s [ED. Sounded like Dennis' , but don't know that name so putting ?] dad. So whatever they had to do to help him, they did. But the mistake was, the ?bannister did, his dad said never tell, never tell nobody, but he told John.
Q. Let's just say this all rolls out as planned, and there is some DNA extracted. Then John goes to jail for a number of years. You think he'd ever retaliate against you or anyone else?
A. I know he would try to come after me. I'm going to do whatever I have to do to get this guy.
Gabriel said oh said if anyone ever backstabs me I will kill them. When this goes down, he'll hate me and when he gets out he'll hate me. But I'm ain't scared.

Inteview over...

 

[Bently]

PART 3 - (my Comcast rewind capabilities are ending, cannot capture end of show)

Dave says he is working up doubt that John thinks this in his mind, What concerns me is that he know information that is not known to the public. He knew that Natalee was dropped off by the road by the Marriot, not by the fishermans hut where everyone thinks she was located. So that leaves me very little doubt that he was involved in moving Natalee's remains. [EDeepak and satish lawyer said dropped off by road by the Marriott, and that is what Gabriel said. Dave said this is why he believes, but could D&S have told DS this?]
IN CAR
He has a lot more details than what Dave heard in other recordings. He talks to JT about drop off point. He tell JT about that only Dave and the lawyer knew about the road by the Marriot. [ED and Deepask and satish, and how did bartender at Marriott never get followed up]

Next shot has Dave in hotel room watching video that Gabriel gave him of John watching himself on Nancy Grace talking about his friendship with VDS. &#8230;..and how John talks about how he should p*ss on Stephany's grave for what she did to his friend.... <--- there was more, but captured in a post above.

Dave again talks about if John perhaps is making this up, but he says he has to get justice for Natalie. He thinks John will come after Gabriel.

They then do previews for the next weeks...

 

[Wondergirl]

Bently, thanks so much for taking all that time to transcribe part of the show.

It's much appreciated.

WG

 

[*Verdigris]

Bently, thanks so much for taking all that time to transcribe part of the show.

It's much appreciated.

WG

Especially appreciated by those of us in a country where we can't access the show at all... thank you Bently!

 

[Bently]

I've not followed this case for years, until this past week. I had a hard time catching up in the last few days due to the thread here. In the past 24 hours, I have watched the show, and then went and googled and read for 6 hours.

It is :moo: :cow: that this is AGAIN a farce and I just have such a heavy heavy heart that Dave is clinging on to so very many facets of society that are abusing his wanting an answer/his daughter's remains and or purposefully wanting the family to suffer..

By the last half of the broadcast, I didn't have in my heart the energy or interest to transcribe anymore.

To me, it is obvious that this is merely one more false lead.

It is a tragedy that VDS tentacles have reached out through others to destroy so many.

I have read about 20 articles in the last 24 hours, and wanted to post some here to justify my beliefs on how I came to this conclusion, but my heart is so very heavy at this time, and real life calls, that I decided I won't even take the time now to justify why I believe so.

My heart goes out to DH. He appear so very broken and I am raying: for him. I cannot imagine his pain and I cry for him. And :grouphug: to him, and Beth who has moved away in her life from being led to dark hopes.