Ask for foreign help?

[joeskidbeck]

The two strangulations: Is it possible that whoever is responsible was not sure that the first one was obvious enough? I'm sure I'm not saying that right. I mean that they may have strangled her with a piece of clothing (her red turtleneck, for example) and then realized that this really pointed to someone in the house, so they fashioned a ligature which killed two birds with one stone (no pun intended). After all, one glance at her with the ligature and most people would believe there had been a stranger in the house that night. For shock factor, the ligature was very effective indeed.
I do believe that the head injury occured upstairs (no idea which room) and the staging took place in the basement area. I don't see how the livor mortis would prevent this. She was still alive when she was strangled (from the back) and then placed in the wine cellar where she was wiped down, redressed, and the blanket was added from the clothes dryer. From this point on, she was on her back which agrees with livor mortis.
Whatever you believe about this case, way too much went on in that house that night for any intruder (much less more than one) to have been present.

 

[joeskidbeck]

UKGuy, sorry, I just realized that I didn't say that the first strangulation could have happened upstairs, then JB was carried downstairs immediately where the person then realized that the strangulation with the shirt just wouldn't do. I don't think enough time elapsed between the two strangulations that livor mortis would have already begun.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, sorry, I just realized that I didn't say that the first strangulation could have happened upstairs, then JB was carried downstairs immediately where the person then realized that the strangulation with the shirt just wouldn't do. I don't think enough time elapsed between the two strangulations that livor mortis would have already begun.

joeskidbeck,

No problem at all, one strangulation or three, what is important is that its likely that whomever staged the wine-cellar scenario assumed JonBenet was already dead, otherwise why bother with post-mortem staging? But as DeeDee249 recounts, with some conviction, livor mortis took place within a certain time frame, so unless you consider JonBenet's assailant to be blessed with prescience, her actual death took place within the wine-cellar, as the livor mortis suggests?


Head bash, or strangulation, sexual assault, or familial abuse impartial analysis susggests that the wine-cellar is a staged homicide location?


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

joeskidbeck,

No problem at all, one strangulation or three, what is important is that its likely that whomever staged the wine-cellar scenario assumed JonBenet was already dead, otherwise why bother with post-mortem staging? But as DeeDee249 recounts, with some conviction, livor mortis took place within a certain time frame, so unless you consider JonBenet's assailant to be blessed with prescience, her actual death took place within the wine-cellar, as the livor mortis suggests?


Head bash, or strangulation, sexual assault, or familial abuse impartial analysis susggests that the wine-cellar is a staged homicide location?


.

You (and DeeDee) are absolutely right! I stand corrected. Whatever happened, her death happened in the basement, no doubt. I am gonna have to slow down while reading. I am missing very important details!:waitasec:

 

[UKGuy]

You (and DeeDee) are absolutely right! I stand corrected. Whatever happened, her death happened in the basement, no doubt. I am gonna have to slow down while reading. I am missing very important details!:waitasec:

joeskidbeck,

I am missing very important details!

Nope, not really you already have the details, its simply that if you take into account a staging scenario then other theories become runners and riders, and JonBenet's death assumes other than a tabloid report?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

You (and DeeDee) are absolutely right! I stand corrected. Whatever happened, her death happened in the basement, no doubt. I am gonna have to slow down while reading. I am missing very important details!:waitasec:

Her death may or may not have occurred in the wineceller, but she had to have died within 15-20 minutes of being placed in that position- that is the approximate time for livor patterns to form.
There could have been two strangulations in two different areas, or a head bash in a different area, but my bet is on at least the final strangulation (I believe there was only one) taking place in the basement- outside the wineceller, where dried urine was found on the carpet. I see her placed on her stomach for the strangulation, with the garrote cord tied on her as she lay. She was already unconscious from the head bash, which I feel came first. There are two red ligature furrows, almost parallel. There was little movement up or down, as the coroner noted in the report. I think the cord was wrapped in that second furrow, but not tied as in the first. Kinda just looped around twice, but only one knot.
At her death, she voided her bladder, as usually happens. Then she was placed on her stomach on the blanket in the wineceller. If her death occured right outside the wineceller, there was plenty of time to put her in there before livor started. We don't really know at what point the size 12 panties were put on. They also had urine stains, so I think they were put on before he death. In my mind, whatever made her bleed from the vagina also caused the scream, which may have led to the head bash. I don't think the paintbrush caused the scream, or the injuries in the vagina would have been worse.

As for the paintbrush- I have no idea why it was broken in three pieces. Certainly it could have been used as a garrote handle intact. The only way I see it being broken is possibly the two ends were thinner, one having a brush and the other tapering to a narrow end. Still don't see why that would matter.
What baffles me is where the missing piece is. Was it inside her? Some think it was, and LE is keeping that secret, in case they ever have a REAL suspect in custody.
The missing piece plays a part in both RDI and IDI. For an intruder, the missing piece was a "souvenir". For RDI, the missing piece may have blood or tissue on it and was either hidden or destroyed.

 

[BBB167893]

Start at the center and move outward, and let me know when there's somebody you or RDI hasn't chastised, insulted, or blamed outright for JBR's murder.

Nobody who didn't have it coming.

I suggest some introspection,

What do you think I'VE been doing???

or to see things from my perspective

Don't forget who you're talking to, HOTYH. Been there, done that, moved on.

Neither PR nor JR were involved in the death of their daughter. They didn't write the note or break the paintbrush. They had no idea what happened or why. They were devastated. Their daughter was never previously abused.

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally, I think you got one out of five.

The results of this poll indicate that JBR's killer is safe for perpetuity

Oh, I don't think we NEEDED the poll to tell us that.

LE might as well close it up and stop wasting taxpayer money. I read its in the millions.

Speaking for myself, that's not the WORST suggestion I've heard in regard to this case!

 

[BBB167893]

I suggest taking a look back from a new perspective, but one that doesn't just fill in a bunch of gaps in knowledge with fiction.

I could SWEAR I made the same suggestion...

RDI has enough obvious fiction in it to fill several trashy paperbacks.

I won't do it. It's too easy.

 

[BBB167893]

If you look at this case using logic and considering that the head injury was not even visible, it makes sense that the strangling came after the head injury. I don't believe she was strangled in order to cause her death as I think she was so close to death after the head bash that whoever is responsible believed she was alreay dead. Therefore I believe she was strangled to make LE believe it was the cause of death. In this day of extreme forensics it's hard for me to believe that whoever did this thought LE would just accept the strangulation as COD, but I do believe that's exactly what happened. I don't think this was about cold-blooded over-kill as some people believe and I cannot see any reasoning for the head bash to come after the strangulation, can you? If so, I would think that the head injury would have been even more severe than what it was. I am open to other's ideas and opinions. As a matter of fact, I would like to know everyone's opinions on what happened that night. I spend a lot of time in the theories thread to that end. So, yes I think the COD is strangulation, but no, I don't think it was intended to be, so that leaves it as part of the staging.

True excellence, beck. In fact, the only quibble I have is:

In this day of extreme forensics it's hard for me to believe that whoever did this thought LE would just accept the strangulation as COD, but I do believe that's exactly what happened.

Let's not forget, public knowledge about forensics then was nowhere NEAR what it is today. And even if it had been, the Rs don't seem like the types to have studied them thoroughly.

 

[madeleine]

The two strangulations: Is it possible that whoever is responsible was not sure that the first one was obvious enough? I'm sure I'm not saying that right. I mean that they may have strangled her with a piece of clothing (her red turtleneck, for example) and then realized that this really pointed to someone in the house, so they fashioned a ligature which killed two birds with one stone (no pun intended). After all, one glance at her with the ligature and most people would believe there had been a stranger in the house that night. For shock factor, the ligature was very effective indeed.
I do believe that the head injury occured upstairs (no idea which room) and the staging took place in the basement area. I don't see how the livor mortis would prevent this. She was still alive when she was strangled (from the back) and then placed in the wine cellar where she was wiped down, redressed, and the blanket was added from the clothes dryer. From this point on, she was on her back which agrees with livor mortis.
Whatever you believe about this case, way too much went on in that house that night for any intruder (much less more than one) to have been present.

Joe,all this and the way you put it reminds me again of the possibility that BDI.let's say that everything is staging,the garrote,the sexual assault,the RN.Why would PR risk her neck so much,if not for B.
If BDI it was an accident and it explains why the parents did all these(weird,horrible) things in order to cover it up.It is the only scenario that explains their behaviour after the crime and why they stayed together and never blamed each other.It explains why they wanted to move on so soon and why they were kinda soft when talking about the killer,forgiving.It explains the pineapple&TEA evidence and much more.

Some say,well why bother so much to cover it up,if BDI,B was young and charges wouldn't have been filled anyway but we really don't know what B was really like and what they were actually trying to hide about him.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Joe,all this and the way you put it reminds me again of the possibility that BDI.let's say that everything is staging,the garrote,the sexual assault,the RN.Why would PR risk her neck so much,if not for B.
If BDI it was an accident and it explains why the parents did all these(weird,horrible) things in order to cover it up.It is the only scenario that explains their behaviour after the crime and why they stayed together and never blamed each other.It explains why they wanted to move on so soon and why they were kinda soft when talking about the killer,forgiving.It explains the pineapple&TEA evidence and much more.

Some say,well why bother so much to cover it up,if BDI,B was young and charges wouldn't have been filled anyway but we really don't know what B was really like and what they were actually trying to hide about him.

There might be an argument if you could link PR to the crime via smoking gun evidence. The GJ wouldn't indict and the DA exhonerated. This because of the lack of smoking gun evidence against PR and the presence of smoking gun evidence against an intruder.

Nuff said.

 

[BBB167893]

Oh, yeah? I might have a few things to say about it.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Madeleine, I'm not 100% sure that the Grand Jury didn't determine that it was BR. IF it was, there could have been no mention of it because of his age. Heck, they may even KNOW that P & J staged the scene in order to cover up for B. If BR accidentally killed JB, the world will never know unless HE tells it. I'm not saying that this is my theory on what happened, but it could go a long way on why ML did her best to clear the Ramsey's name.

 

[madeleine]

Madeleine, I'm not 100% sure that the Grand Jury didn't determine that it was BR. IF it was, there could have been no mention of it because of his age. Heck, they may even KNOW that P & J staged the scene in order to cover up for B. If BR accidentally killed JB, the world will never know unless HE tells it. I'm not saying that this is my theory on what happened, but it could go a long way on why ML did her best to clear the Ramsey's name.

It would explain why AH was so eager to clear B first.

 

[madeleine]

There might be an argument if you could link PR to the crime via smoking gun evidence. The GJ wouldn't indict and the DA exhonerated. This because of the lack of smoking gun evidence against PR and the presence of smoking gun evidence against an intruder.

Nuff said.

I agree that the DNA in 3 places is smoking gun against the intruder but we have no idea what the intruder did there and whether he's the killer.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I agree that the DNA in 3 places is smoking gun against the intruder but we have no idea what the intruder did there and whether he's the killer.

Tough crowd...

...let me know when they find a match to the DNA, handwriting, linguistics, or published profile.

 

[madeleine]

Tough crowd...

...let me know when they find a match to the DNA, handwriting, linguistics, or published profile.

Is the killer the same person who wrote the note?
Is the writer the DNA owner?
Is the DNA owner the killer?


They have no clue.
And we can't know either until it's known how many people participated in this crime,IDI or RDI.