Ask for foreign help?

[BBB167893]

Of course there's nothing to suggest to YOU that it was caused by any special circumstances or intent!!!

Now, just what is THAT supposed to mean, friend?

To me, a separated fragment of specific rectangular size suggests that an investigator ought to look for or consider objects that fit that description.

Agreed 100%. But that's not what I meant.

There are a number of examples of skull injury with displaced fragment and hole, where the hole represents the object cross-section. A hammer, for example.

Right. I'm not arguing that.

For RDI, yourself in particular, to dismiss this as meaningless is par for the course.

Let's not get personal, HOTYH. It won't end well for either of us. It sounds to me like you and I are victims of a mutual misunderstanding.

For the rest of us not predisposed, I'd suggest an object of 1/2" x 1 1/2" cross-section as the likely culprit.

Seems we have a failure to communicate. I'd suggest the same thing. What I'm saying is that I don't understand how that automatically knocks the Rs out of contention.

It seems to me that in order to produce an intact skull fragment, high velocity and a specific shape has to be involved.

Why didn't you say that in the first place? I agree. But like I said: how does that remove the Rs from the list?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The injury suggests high velocity and that suggests a deliberate act as opposed to an accident e.g. JBR's head hitting something, because an accident would involve lower speeds. Tending to be more a blunt force injury and less a penetration with dislodged fragment.

The cross-section suggests a small but dense object. And such is the nature of weaponry.

I believe that if JBR's head injury had swelling, and a fracture but no displaced fragment, then the accident idea would have more credence. But placed alongside the ligature furrow and petechial hemorrhaging, the whole thing has the appearance of deliberate and deadly violence. You really have to circumvent the evidence to believe otherwise.

 

[Rindicella]

Forgive me for asking, but I am new here. Is there a picture of this "ransom note"....the one by the "small foriegn faction"???

 

[MurriFlower]

Forgive me for asking, but I am new here. Is there a picture of this "ransom note"....the one by the "small foriegn faction"???

Start at the Sticky -- Ramsey Links & Resources

 

[joeskidbeck]

The injury suggests high velocity and that suggests a deliberate act as opposed to an accident e.g. JBR's head hitting something, because an accident would involve lower speeds. Tending to be more a blunt force injury and less a penetration with dislodged fragment.

The cross-section suggests a small but dense object. And such is the nature of weaponry.

I believe that if JBR's head injury had swelling, and a fracture but no displaced fragment, then the accident idea would have more credence. But placed alongside the ligature furrow and petechial hemorrhaging, the whole thing has the appearance of deliberate and deadly violence. You really have to circumvent the evidence to believe otherwise.

Some of us believe the object used on JB's head was used as a weapon. The only "accidental" part was whose head it actually hit.

 

[BBB167893]

The injury suggests high velocity and that suggests a deliberate act as opposed to an accident e.g. JBR's head hitting something, because an accident would involve lower speeds. Tending to be more a blunt force injury and less a penetration with dislodged fragment.

Well, to take this one step at a time, A) when we say "accident," we mean that the person who inflicted the head injury did not intend to kill; B) if a stationery object had roughly the same nature as a weapon, it would still concentrate the force onto a small area; and C) who's to say what the "proper" speed was? If JB were thrown into something, she'd be moving pretty damn fast, wouldn't you say?

The cross-section suggests a small but dense object. And such is the nature of weaponry.

That's a fair point. One worthy of being addressed.

I believe that if JBR's head injury had swelling, and a fracture but no displaced fragment, then the accident idea would have more credence.

But, HOTYH, that's my point: head injuries are extremely quirky. There are several different factors that play into how one injury will turn out vs. another one.

But placed alongside the ligature furrow and petechial hemorrhaging, the whole thing has the appearance of deliberate and deadly violence.

You said it, man: "appearance." Key word there!

You really have to circumvent the evidence to believe otherwise.

Not. At. All.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You said it, man: "appearance." Key word there!

AKA prima facie, which tells us that deadly force was used on JBR.

Don't take my word for it, thats what the coroner's report stated. I understand why you're not satisfied with Dr. Meyer but lets face it: you're not satisfied with just about everybody who was close to JBR, are you?

Petechial hemorrhaging on JBR's neck says death by strangulation not staging. Who are you trying to kid with this? The word 'staged injury' or 'injury after death' never appeared on the report. Do you believe the staging occurred while JBR was still 'barely alive' and do you even realize that this is your fiction, and not a fact?

Evidence suggests that JBR was violently, brutally murdered. The coroner would agree if he were to testify.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Does anyone here really have any doubt that it was "death by strangulation"? I don't understand the debate with this. It was absolutely strangulation that caused her death. Whether it was meant to or not is beside the point until someone is charged with her murder. We canther_beatingA_Dead till we are all blue in the face and it won't solve or change one thing about this case!

 

[joeskidbeck]

What I wouldn't give for Dr. Meyer to join in this conversation.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Does anyone here really have any doubt that it was "death by strangulation"? I don't understand the debate with this. It was absolutely strangulation that caused her death. Whether it was meant to or not is beside the point until someone is charged with her murder. We canther_beatingA_Dead till we are all blue in the face and it won't solve or change one thing about this case!

I believe either injury could have killed her. I think you're probably right, but I don't think there is a definitive answer. They happened close together in time...that we do know for sure

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think Mayer has said much about this case since 1996.

 

[BBB167893]

AKA prima facie, which tells us that deadly force was used on JBR. Don't take my word for it, thats what the coroner's report stated.

I KNOW what the coroner stated. Thus, I know that what he stated is not exactly what you're claiming. No one I know is saying that deadly force wasn't used. The question is: what was the intent?

I understand why you're not satisfied with Dr. Meyer

I don't think you understand anything about my positions.

but lets face it: you're not satisfied with just about everybody who was close to JBR, are you?

Just what is that supposed to mean? Whatever you've got to say, just come right out with it.

Petechial hemorrhaging on JBR's neck says death by strangulation not staging.

I'm afraid it doesn't. Unless, of course, one is using an extremely narrow, if not misunderstood, definition of the phrase and ignores certain factors.

Who are you trying to kid with this?

I don't come here to kid around.

The word 'staged injury' or 'injury after death' never appeared on the report.

I wouldn't expect them to.

Do you believe the staging occurred while JBR was still 'barely alive'

You're damn right I do.

and do you even realize that this is your fiction, and not a fact?

I'll tell you what I realize, friend: Contrary to your implication that it's just something I whipped up out of thin air, it's not particularly "mine," not by a long shot. I've got no less than four pathologists--damn good ones--who agree with me. So if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as "fiction."

Evidence suggests that JBR was violently, brutally murdered. The coroner would agree if he were to testify.

I wouldn't mind actually hearing that from him.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

but lets face it: you're not satisfied with just about everybody who was close to JBR, are you?

Just what is that supposed to mean? Whatever you've got to say, just come right out with it.

Start at the center and move outward, and let me know when there's somebody you or RDI hasn't chastised, insulted, or blamed outright for JBR's murder. Yet the killer could be 10000 miles away!

I suggest some introspection, or to see things from my perspective:

Neither PR nor JR were involved in the death of their daughter. They didn't write the note or break the paintbrush. They had no idea what happened or why. They were devastated. Their daughter was never previously abused.

The results of this poll indicate that JBR's killer is safe for perpetuity--nobody cares unless its a domestic. LE might as well close it up and stop wasting taxpayer money. I read its in the millions.

 

[DeeDee249]

Start at the center and move outward, and let me know when there's somebody you or RDI hasn't chastised, insulted, or blamed outright for JBR's murder. Yet the killer could be 10000 miles away!

I suggest some introspection, or to see things from my perspective:

Neither PR nor JR were involved in the death of their daughter. They didn't write the note or break the paintbrush. They had no idea what happened or why. They were devastated. Their daughter was never previously abused.

The results of this poll indicate that JBR's killer is safe for perpetuity--nobody cares unless its a domestic. LE might as well close it up and stop wasting taxpayer money. I read its in the millions.

Obviously, these are your opinions and you are entitled to them. Just as I am. You cannot prove they were not responsible for her death and you cannot prove one of them didn't break that brush. Patsy's fibers in a paint tote from a garment she herself said she never wore while painting (and she also said it was LHP who put the tote in there, not her) place her handling that tote and items in it, as far as I am concerned. But I know you disagree, and that's fine.
However, there was evidence of prior sexual abuse that even the coroner felt was the case (he told LE he felt there was digital penetration).
But you are right about one thing- JB's killer IS safe for perpetuity.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Obviously, these are your opinions and you are entitled to them. Just as I am. You cannot prove they were not responsible for her death and you cannot prove one of them didn't break that brush. Patsy's fibers in a paint tote from a garment she herself said she never wore while painting (and she also said it was LHP who put the tote in there, not her) place her handling that tote and items in it, as far as I am concerned. But I know you disagree, and that's fine.
However, there was evidence of prior sexual abuse that even the coroner felt was the case (he told LE he felt there was digital penetration).
But you are right about one thing- JB's killer IS safe for perpetuity.

I like it when you tell me what I can and can't do. As if you know. Its so typical.

Why would PR or JR break the brush? I mean, RDI just makes these outlandish wildcard high handed claims like 'oh they did everything to see what would stick to the wall' without any knowledge that they ever did such a thing.

No really: Why would PR or JR break the brush?

I suggest taking a look back from a new perspective, but one that doesn't just fill in a bunch of gaps in knowledge with fiction. RDI has enough obvious fiction in it to fill several trashy paperbacks.

 

[UKGuy]

Does anyone here really have any doubt that it was "death by strangulation"? I don't understand the debate with this. It was absolutely strangulation that caused her death. Whether it was meant to or not is beside the point until someone is charged with her murder. We canther_beatingA_Dead till we are all blue in the face and it won't solve or change one thing about this case!

joeskidbeck,
The Autopsy Report states.

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

Which is ambiguous e.g. Dr. Meyer was not able to determine whether JonBenét died of a skull fracture or strangulation. And he could not pinpoint a time of death.

Its really all about the staging, if the staging is a central component in your theory e.g. strangulation, then other scenarios appear inprobable.

Take the size-12 underwear are these JonBenet's preferred pants or was she redressed in them because a prior staging e.g. sexual assault was deemed unworkable so she was wiped down and redressed?


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

joeskidbeck,
The Autopsy Report states.


Which is ambiguous e.g. Dr. Meyer was not able to determine whether JonBenét died of a skull fracture or strangulation. And he could not pinpoint a time of death.

Its really all about the staging, if the staging is a central component in your theory e.g. strangulation, then other scenarios appear inprobable.

Take the size-12 underwear are these JonBenet's preferred pants or was she redressed in them because a prior staging e.g. sexual assault was deemed unworkable so she was wiped down and redressed?


.

If you look at this case using logic and considering that the head injury was not even visible, it makes sense that the strangling came after the head injury. I don't believe she was strangled in order to cause her death as I think she was so close to death after the head bash that whoever is responsible believed she was alreay dead. Therefore I believe she was strangled to make LE believe it was the cause of death. In this day of extreme forensics it's hard for me to believe that whoever did this thought LE would just accept the strangulation as COD, but I do believe that's exactly what happened. I don't think this was about cold-blooded over-kill as some people believe and I cannot see any reasoning for the head bash to come after the strangulation, can you? If so, I would think that the head injury would have been even more severe than what it was. I am open to other's ideas and opinions. As a matter of fact, I would like to know everyone's opinions on what happened that night. I spend a lot of time in the theories thread to that end. So, yes I think the COD is strangulation, but no, I don't think it was intended to be, so that leaves it as part of the staging.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If you look at this case using logic and considering that the head injury was not even visible, it makes sense that the strangling came after the head injury. I don't believe she was strangled in order to cause her death as I think she was so close to death after the head bash that whoever is responsible believed she was alreay dead. Therefore I believe she was strangled to make LE believe it was the cause of death. In this day of extreme forensics it's hard for me to believe that whoever did this thought LE would just accept the strangulation as COD, but I do believe that's exactly what happened. I don't think this was about cold-blooded over-kill as some people believe and I cannot see any reasoning for the head bash to come after the strangulation, can you? If so, I would think that the head injury would have been even more severe than what it was. I am open to other's ideas and opinions. As a matter of fact, I would like to know everyone's opinions on what happened that night. I spend a lot of time in the theories thread to that end. So, yes I think the COD is strangulation, but no, I don't think it was intended to be, so that leaves it as part of the staging.

I agree with you.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Sorry, one more thing. I also believe that someone style JB's hair in order to cover the head bash and the size 12 Bloomies were not something that she would have worn every day because they would not have stayed on her little behind. She would have been constantly pulling and tugging at her undies and I don't think her mother would have allowed that on a daily basis. They were put on her after her death for good reason.

 

[UKGuy]

If you look at this case using logic and considering that the head injury was not even visible, it makes sense that the strangling came after the head injury. I don't believe she was strangled in order to cause her death as I think she was so close to death after the head bash that whoever is responsible believed she was alreay dead. Therefore I believe she was strangled to make LE believe it was the cause of death. In this day of extreme forensics it's hard for me to believe that whoever did this thought LE would just accept the strangulation as COD, but I do believe that's exactly what happened. I don't think this was about cold-blooded over-kill as some people believe and I cannot see any reasoning for the head bash to come after the strangulation, can you? If so, I would think that the head injury would have been even more severe than what it was. I am open to other's ideas and opinions. As a matter of fact, I would like to know everyone's opinions on what happened that night. I spend a lot of time in the theories thread to that end. So, yes I think the COD is strangulation, but no, I don't think it was intended to be, so that leaves it as part of the staging.

joeskidbeck,

Some people think there may have been two stranglings e.g. one upstairs and another employing the broken paintbrush and cord down in the basement.

If you review the post-mortem pictures showing JonBenet's neck then you will see abrasions lower down on her neck which are inconsistent with the thickness of the cord, suggesting a prior strangulation?

That is whomever strangled her assumed she was already dead when the wine-cellar staging took place.

Otherwise we have a head bash followed by two strangulation stagings.

My personal starting point for any theory is that the wine-cellar is a staged homicide location, this is then constrained by the livor mortis pattern, as outlined by DeeDee249, that is you either believe that JonBenet was removed from her bed relocated to the basement sexually assaulted then strangled and bashed on the head to kill her, or some other course of events took place?

You are correct regarding JonBenet's hair being restyled, but since photos of her at the White's Christmas party have not been released, we do not know if this was her hair style worn to the party?

The size-12 underwear has been exhaustively discussed but nearly everyone accepts they are staging e.g. they probably replaced the bloodied underwear after she was wiped down, courtesy of Dr Myer ...


.