Ask for foreign help?

Ask for foreign help?

  • Ask for Russia's help.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ask for China's help.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ask both Russia and China for help.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ask nobody for help-the RN is a lie-its a domestic case.

    Votes: 14 100.0%

  • Total voters
    14
  • #61
Can RDI please help find anything about this crime that is conforming, normal, regular, standard, or usual for filicide?

We can give it a try, can't we, folks?

I'll take the first shot: head injuries are a very common cause of death in filicides.

It's also fairly common for killer parents to blame the killings on nameless, fictional criminals, many of who are often embodiments of popular fears. Darlie Routier blamed the murder of her boys on a masked home-invader; Susan Smith claimed her boys were kidnapped by a carjacker who was little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking "gangsta." Jeffrey MacDonald claimed his family was murdered by Manson Family-like hippies. And so on.

That will do for a starter.

I mean, that wasn't just invented for convenience?

Meaning what?
 
  • #62
We can give it a try, can't we, folks?

I'll take the first shot: head injuries are a very common cause of death in filicides.

It's also fairly common for killer parents to blame the killings on nameless, fictional criminals, many of who are often embodiments of popular fears. Darlie Routier blamed the murder of her boys on a masked home-invader; Susan Smith claimed her boys were kidnapped by a carjacker who was little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking "gangsta." Jeffrey MacDonald claimed his family was murdered by Manson Family-like hippies. And so on.

That will do for a starter.

OK head injuries are a very common cause of death in filicides. I'm going to look that up.

Meaning what?

Meaning this (assuming your sources are valid):

Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on masked home-invader.
Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on gangsta.
Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on hippie.
Non-Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on representative from a small foreign faction.

You're inventing that JR/PR blamed the killing on small foreign faction, two gentlemen, embodiments of popular fears, etc. when they never did! Only if they themselves did that would it be factually the same as your examples.

Nice try,though.

Fact: Ransom note author calls himself/herself a representative of small foreign faction, embodies popular fears, and implicates self in child killing.

See what I mean?
 
  • #63
OK head injuries are a very common cause of death in filicides. I'm going to look that up.

I hope you do.

Meaning this (assuming your sources are valid):

Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on masked home-invader.
Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on gangsta.
Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on hippie.
Non-Fact: Murder suspect blames killing on representative from a small foreign faction.

You're inventing that JR/PR blamed the killing on small foreign faction, two gentlemen, embodiments of popular fears, etc. when they never did! Only if they themselves did that would it be factually the same as your examples.

Nice try,though.

Fact: Ransom note author calls himself/herself a representative of small foreign faction, embodies popular fears, and implicates self in child killing.

See what I mean?

Well, I'll say this:

1) We don't KNOW it's not a fact, so your claim that "they never did" is just that.

2) You make a good point that the RN writer and the killer are not necessarily one and the same.

3) I thought we were speaking theoretically here. I was saying how it's common for killer parents to do that. It does not necessarily follow that the Rs DID do that, merely that it would not be unexpected.
 
  • #64
It's also fairly common for killer parents to blame the killings on nameless, fictional criminals, many of who are often embodiments of popular fears. Darlie Routier blamed the murder of her boys on a masked home-invader; Susan Smith claimed her boys were kidnapped by a carjacker who was little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking "gangsta." Jeffrey MacDonald claimed his family was murdered by Manson Family-like hippies. And so on.

OK but how is this relevant to JBR? The parents never blamed the killings on nameless, fictional criminals who were embodiments of popular fears. The ransom note author did that.

3) I thought we were speaking theoretically here. I was saying how it's common for killer parents to do that. It does not necessarily follow that the Rs DID do that, merely that it would not be unexpected.

Can RDI please help find anything about this crime that is conforming, normal, regular, standard, or usual for filicide?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what your argument does is it identifies a characteristic that you consider to be normal or regular for filicide. Its normal or regular behavior for the parent to blame on fictional criminals who were embodiments of popular fears, e.g. carjacker or gangsta. I'm not sure that you can then project this regular filicide behavior onto JR or PR because THEY never DID THAT BEHAVIOR. The ransom note author may have, but they didn't.
 
  • #65
OK but how is this relevant to JBR? The parents never blamed the killings on nameless, fictional criminals who were embodiments of popular fears. The ransom note author did that.

Well, it's relevant if one believes that the RN author and one or both of the parents are the same. But I see your point. Okay, forget I mentioned it.

Can RDI please help find anything about this crime that is conforming, normal, regular, standard, or usual for filicide?

Let me know how your head injury research goes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what your argument does is it identifies a characteristic that you consider to be normal or regular for filicide. Its normal or regular behavior for the parent to blame on fictional criminals who were embodiments of popular fears, e.g. carjacker or gangsta.

You're not wrong.

I'm not sure that you can then project this regular filicide behavior onto JR or PR because THEY never DID THAT BEHAVIOR. The ransom note author may have, but they didn't.

Okay. Like I said, forget I mentioned it. Hmm. Perhaps it would be better to say that killer parents tend to blame others. The Rs certainly offered a lot of names, didn't they?

I'm sure there are others who can throw some light on the subject as well?
 
  • #66
Let me know how your head injury research goes.

...Done.

According to grand RDI theory, there was no striking over the head. You're back to square one here. The idea that a child was accidentally struck over the head and it was covered up to look deliberate is atypical, unusual, and yes--even bizarre.

Okay. Like I said, forget I mentioned it. Hmm. Perhaps it would be better to say that killer parents tend to blame others. The Rs certainly offered a lot of names, didn't they?

But wait... the parents offered names but they also offered a killer profile with a newspaper ad. They hired their own investigative team. This was their effort to blame others, and that would be atypical, unusual, irregular, and odd for filicidal parents.

Can RDI please help find anything about this crime that is conforming, normal, regular, standard, or usual for filicide?
 
  • #67
...Done.

According to grand RDI theory, there was no striking over the head. You're back to square one here. The idea that a child was accidentally struck over the head and it was covered up to look deliberate is atypical, unusual, and yes--even bizarre.



But wait... the parents offered names but they also offered a killer profile with a newspaper ad. They hired their own investigative team. This was their effort to blame others, and that would be atypical, unusual, irregular, and odd for filicidal parents.



Can RDI please help find anything about this crime that is conforming, normal, regular, standard, or usual for filicide?

Thus far, we have nothing.


On December 12, 2001 during a deposition, John Ramsey said that the "purpose of those investigators was to prepare a defense in the case that the police might bring a charge against me."

and

"Ellis Armistead, has stated that he has lost faith in the system. In an article in the Rocky Mountain News, Armistead said his assignment was not to solve the crime. "It was to keep the Ramseys from being arrested."

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/check/burke.html
 
  • #68
Well, it's relevant if one believes that the RN author and one or both of the parents are the same. But I see your point. Okay, forget I mentioned it.



Let me know how your head injury research goes.



You're not wrong.



Okay. Like I said, forget I mentioned it. Hmm. Perhaps it would be better to say that killer parents tend to blame others. The Rs certainly offered a lot of names, didn't they?

I'm sure there are others who can throw some light on the subject as well?

I think BR is just about the only person the Ramsey's didn't name as a possible suspect. Everyone else was fair game.
 
  • #69
Thanks, Linda. I used to think JR probably regretted making that statement but I now realize that by this time he pretty much thought he and Patsy were untouchable and it didn't matter.
 
  • #70
Where do you get that RDI do not acknowledge JB being struck on the head? While some may feel she was slammed into something, just as many feel she was struck on the head. I know of NO RDI who feel the skull fracture doesn't exist.
 
  • #71

I'll have to take your word for it.

According to grand RDI theory, there was no striking over the head. You're back to square one here.

Whoa, hold up. "Grand RDI theory?" What the heck is that? And where does it say there was no striking over the head?

The idea that a child was accidentally struck over the head and it was covered up to look deliberate is atypical, unusual, and yes--even bizarre.

Agreed. But this whole case is bizarre. That said, you asked if there was anything typical about this. I said that it was typical for filicides to have head injuries. No good trying to weasel now.

But wait... the parents offered names but they also offered a killer profile with a newspaper ad. They hired their own investigative team. This was their effort to blame others, and that would be atypical, unusual, irregular, and odd for filicidal parents.

That's true, but only because they had the werewithal to do all of that. Most killer parents don't. However, there is one thing that stands out: if what I've read is correct, a lot of parents who kill feel overwhelmed, usually because they feel like they are bearing all of the burden. That would fit PR: she was the one home with the kids all the time. That had to be tough, especially with children like BR and JBR. I'm not saying that BR and JBR were bad kids, no way. But they were kids, and JR was jetsetting too often to put in any real effort. It all fell on PR. HOTYH, you often talk about how there are "socioeconomic factors" in parents killing children (a fancy way of saying that it's only "THOSE" people who do such things). But let me ask you something: how much contact do those on the high end of the income spectrum HAVE with their kids? Don't most of them entrust their children with nannies and the like?

That's not true with the Rs. Yes, they had helpers, but their efforts were fairly limited. So that leaves PR often alone with the two kids, with all of her ailments and Odin-knows-what her treatments did to her. If that's not the classic cooking pot of stress-related, parent-on-child violence, I don't know what is.

PS: I wouldn't mention them hiring their own investigative team much. That's a whole heap of problems!
 
  • #72
Thanks, Linda. I used to think JR probably regretted making that statement but I now realize that by this time he pretty much thought he and Patsy were untouchable and it didn't matter.

I agree, 100%.
 
  • #73
Where do you get that RDI do not acknowledge JB being struck on the head? While some may feel she was slammed into something, just as many feel she was struck on the head. I know of NO RDI who feel the skull fracture doesn't exist.

That makes two people who want to know!
 
  • #74
  • #75
  • #76
Agreed. But this whole case is bizarre. That said, you asked if there was anything typical about this. I said that it was typical for filicides to have head injuries. No good trying to weasel now.

I would consider your argument as valid with just one example of a filicide with displaced fragment. That is, 'typical for filicides to have head injuries' should only apply if the head injury is typical for a filicide. But you know and I know it isn't.

JBR's head injury isn't your typical, normal, usual traumatic brain injury associated with child abuse and filicide. JBR had a long fracture with displaced fragment approx. .5" x 1.5".

Suicide, socioeconomic, and psychosocial factors are present in the great majority of filicide while none of these are known factors in JBR's murder.

As filicides go, there is nothing typical or usual about this case. If it was a filicide, JR and PR are well outside the norm for filicidal parents. I'm surprised anyone would waste time arguing this position.

As to the original question: where is anything typical or normal for filicide? Everybody knows JBR's head injury isn't a traumatic brain injury that is typical for filicide. Further, the idea that the R's identified a specific character, like a carjacker or a foreign kidnapper, didn't even happen! The claim makes your persuit of R's guilt seem somewhat jumpy and overeager.

I'm not sure, but I think you're assuming JR/PR wrote the note, and then drawing conclusions about their behavior based on this assumption. I would have no problem finding anyone guilty using those methods!
 
  • #77
I would consider your argument as valid with just one example of a filicide with displaced fragment. That is, 'typical for filicides to have head injuries' should only apply if the head injury is typical for a filicide. But you know and I know it isn't.

That's NOT what you asked.

JBR's head injury isn't your typical, normal, usual traumatic brain injury associated with child abuse and filicide. JBR had a long fracture with displaced fragment approx. .5" x 1.5".

HOTYH, I'm going to go on record as saying that the nature of JB's skull fracture is not that important in the overall scheme of the case. By that I mean that there's nothing to suggest to me that it was caused by any special circumstances or intent; that's just how it happened.

Suicide, socioeconomic, and psychosocial factors are present in the great majority of filicide while none of these are known factors in JBR's murder.

I put the emphasis on known. But try looking at it this way, HOTYH: when you say, Suicide, socioeconomic, and psychosocial factors are present in the great majority of filicide, it helps to remember that those stats refer to premeditated murder. I don't think it was premeditated. It just happened.

As filicides go, there is nothing typical or usual about this case.

I'm not 100% about that. Still, assuming you're right, that doesn't mean much to me. At one point or another in time, EVERY filicide was bizarre.

Hmm. I guess it helps to remember what Ron Walker said:

"Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."

If it was a filicide, JR and PR are well outside the norm for filicidal parents.

I'm not aware of anyone who would disagree with you on that, HOTYH.

I'm surprised anyone would waste time arguing this position.

Then why did you bring it up?

As to the original question: where is anything typical or normal for filicide?

Well, I have a few questions of my own (and not only me):

--"Grand RDI theory?" What the heck is that? And where does it say there was no striking over the head?

--Give me your take on this: if what I've read is correct, a lot of parents who kill feel overwhelmed, usually because they feel like they are bearing all of the burden. That would fit PR: she was the one home with the kids all the time. That had to be tough, especially with children like BR and JBR. I'm not saying that BR and JBR were bad kids, no way. But they were kids, and JR was jetsetting too often to put in any real effort. It all fell on PR. HOTYH, you often talk about how there are "socioeconomic factors" in parents killing children (a fancy way of saying that it's only "THOSE" people who do such things). But let me ask you something: how much contact do those on the high end of the income spectrum HAVE with their kids? Don't most of them entrust their children with nannies and the like?

That's not true with the Rs. Yes, they had helpers, but their efforts were fairly limited. So that leaves PR often alone with the two kids, with all of her ailments and Odin-knows-what her treatments did to her. If that's not the classic cooking pot of stress-related, parent-on-child violence, I don't know what is.


Further, the idea that the R's identified a specific character, like a carjacker or a foreign kidnapper, didn't even happen!

I didn't say "identified a specific character." I said "played to popular fears." I don't mind you taking on my arguments, but don't put words in my mouth.

The claim makes your pursuit of R's guilt seem somewhat jumpy and overeager.

Compared to what, HOTYH?

I'm not sure, but I think you're assuming JR/PR wrote the note, and then drawing conclusions about their behavior based on this assumption.

You may be right about that.
 
  • #78
I only speak for myself, but I think JB's head injury was pretty severe. There was no intrusion into the brain, but that was a huge skull fracture. It has been said by some forensic experts who have reviewed the evidence that the lack of severe brain trauma is because she died relatively soon after, and may have lapsed into a coma immediately after, slowing the body's responses. There was no major swelling or organization (a rush of white blood cells to the injury) because she died before it could occur.
 
  • #79
HOTYH, I'm going to go on record as saying that the nature of JB's skull fracture is not that important in the overall scheme of the case. By that I mean that there's nothing to suggest to me that it was caused by any special circumstances or intent; that's just how it happened.

Of course there's nothing to suggest to YOU that it was caused by any special circumstances or intent!!! To me, a separated fragment of specific rectangular size suggests that an investigator ought to look for or consider objects that fit that description.

There are a number of examples of skull injury with displaced fragment and hole, where the hole represents the object cross-section. A hammer, for example.

For RDI, yourself in particular, to dismiss this as meaningless is par for the course. For the rest of us not predisposed, I'd suggest an object of 1/2" x 1 1/2" cross-section as the likely culprit.
 
  • #80
It seems to me that in order to produce an intact skull fragment, high velocity and a specific shape has to be involved.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
158
Guests online
2,626
Total visitors
2,784

Forum statistics

Threads
632,671
Messages
18,630,154
Members
243,245
Latest member
noseyisa01
Back
Top