AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #7

[JaneSA]

Sounds like a victim lying down on the ground and being kicked. But if that's what happened, it looks to me like more than one person. If a single killer wants to make sure the victim is dead, kicking seems an odd way to make someone die.

I agree it would probably imply and require more than one or two people.

 

[JaneSA]

Police may not be allowing the information to flow unchecked from this person. They may be 'stage managing' the release.
If it was completetly untrue, I am sure they would have come out and totally knocked it on the head. Perhaps there is some evidence that drug dealers or criminals, or drug users (or junkies!) are involved in the murders.

I do think there is something distinctly stage-managed going on here. Even the timing is odd and yet also very convenient.
I think you may be right.

 

[Makara]

Sounds like a victim lying down on the ground and being kicked. But if that's what happened, it looks to me like more than one person. If a single killer wants to make sure the victim is dead, kicking seems an odd way to make someone die.

Karlie may have already been unconscious when she was taken to Belanglo. Police have not released Karlie's cause of death, so anything else at this stage is supposition.

 

[1968]

well... the only report of this $25,000 thingy was from the Advertiser, purporting to be from the ex-carer of Connie.. so in this instance, you did judge from the media, and judged this person to be the sole and wholy singular possessor of the truth regarding Karlie's life pre her murder. An odd position, since even in that report in the media, no other proof, or confirmation was offered . At all. Yet, for some reason, this one person's (anon, for websleuth's reasons) statement is taken as gospel, all other ideas are disparaged and endlessly argued with... what is the magic of this one person's statement that all this effort and tremendous embroidery has been attached to it?

To be fair to to Jane, trooper I will remind you there is and always has been, a drug element to this case. DH and HPA shared a home from which they fled leaving behind drug parafinalia, <modsnip> Connie, the grandmother, has a drug raid conducted on her house.

 

[inkpink]

no. she wasn't.... the family, I assume you mean the cousin who wrote in a fairly and rationally frame of fury to Karlie re the state of her mothers health and to contact.. it hadn't crossed anyone's mind that the contact they had formerly, was in fact, not Karlie but someone using her phone, her speech pattern, and her ( and their ) knowledge of Karlie's family dynamics and environment.

Yes but I wonder how long between the last 'phony' contact was had to how long the facebook page was created.

I'm curious as to whether there was a reluctance from the Family to lodge another report due to fear of involving Police based on what rumours re. drugs that may have got back to them whether it was the truth or not......

I am absolutely not judging the Family on this. Its just a thought that has popped into my head.

I think the Family is dong a sterling job with regards to media.

 

[Wexford]

I still feel we need a motive.Lots of relationships break down every day but murder is an uncommon solution.

Really? Have you read the latest stats on domestic violence??
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...cale-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-2015-9

63 women in Australia alone at the time of this article (24th sept 2016) murdered.

 

[1968]

While all these leads and motives are possible and worthy of discussion. ....

My money is still on a violent unhinged drugged up psycho operating in a community of sub humans that are still yet to emerge from the primordial ooze and who feed and breed off the welfare state.


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a la Snowtown....????

 

[JaneSA]

Knew enough about women to be able to manipulate them while playing Mr Sweetness and Light?

Intelligent enough to allegedly commit fraud and make sure Mum and bub weren't found, DNA matched and IDd for years.

Smart but immature emotionally/psychologically, lack of character/empathy.

Deeply vengeful or in an altered state of mind?

These dichotomies trouble me greatly and to me, make no sense.

Mentally deranged enough to kill 2 people with extreme violence VS controlled enough to keep quiet about it for 7 years
Out of control murders VS careful concealment of remains
Crazed killing VS long-running, well planned financial fraud

These don't align at all.
Yet we know the facts to the right are correct.
So we have to question the facts on the left.

I think we are looking at a group, not an individual; planned executions not rage; prosaic motive, not emotionally complex motive.

I don't know any more than anyone else here about Holdom, but if the reports of his personality are true and he is really just an overgrown child, while he may well be involved, I can't see him being either the main protagonist of the murders or the person who has covered them up and mislead/misdirected people for 7 years.

Of course, it is always possible he is a criminal mastermind who has cunningly hidden behind the facade of a simpleton for 40 years, but I doubt it based on what we know of his lifestyle.

 

[Wolfinator]

a la Snowtown....????

Exactly.


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[JaneSA]

Yes but I wonder how long between the last 'phony' contact was had to how long the facebook page was created.

I'm curious as to whether there was a reluctance from the Family to lodge another report due to fear of involving Police based on what rumours re. drugs that may have got back to them whether it was the truth or not......

I am absolutely not judging the Family on this. Its just a thought that has popped into my head.

I think the Family is dong a sterling job with regards to media.

I think you are spot on, Inkpink.
I'm sure they did feel very reluctant to involve the police given the rumours.

 

[inkpink]

These dichotomies trouble me greatly and to me, make no sense.

Mentally deranged enough to kill 2 people with extreme violence VS controlled enough to keep quiet about it for 7 years
Out of control murders VS careful concealment of remains
Crazed killing VS long-running, well planned financial fraud

These don't align at all.
Yet we know the facts to the right are correct.
So we have to question the facts on the left.

I think we are looking at a group, not an individual; planned executions not rage; prosaic motive, not emotionally complex motive.

I don't know any more than anyone else here about Holdom, but if the reports of his personality are true and he is really just an overgrown child, while he may well be involved, I can't see him being either the main protagonist of the murders or the person who has covered them up and mislead/misdirected people for 7 years.

Of course, it is always possible he is a criminal mastermind who has cunningly hidden behind the facade of a simpleton for 40 years, but I doubt it based on what we know of his lifestyle.

BBM - It wouldn't be a stretch that there would be some sick Ahole in a group like that who would have no problem carrying out the brutal deaths with no emotional attachment. Someone who probably tortured animals as a kid. One of them types......

 

[Panda]

Sounds like a victim lying down on the ground and being kicked. But if that's what happened, it looks to me like more than one person. If a single killer wants to make sure the victim is dead, kicking seems an odd way to make someone die.

I'm at a loss as to how accurate these reports are. I can't imagine the police would release this type of information, which makes me wonder where the newspaper got it from in the first place, and equally, why the police haven't refuted these reports if not accurate, and why the article is still available if there is no truth to them. The information surrounding Karlie's injuries are quite specific, which does make me wonder.

"The Daily Telegraph can reveal Ms Pearce-Stevenson had injuries “consistent with being stomped on” and suffered extreme violence to her upper body, particularly her ribs."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/karlie-pearce-stevensons-alleged-killer-daniel-holdom-in-car-crash-which-killed-two-children/story-fni0cx12-1227587079756

In any case, a single killer could quite easily ensure the victim was dead by kicking - for all we know it wasn't an intentional kill, it may have been the consequence of the offender losing his temper, in which case, it is quite feasible he kicked her around violently and/or then stomped on her in a fit of rage. I'm quite frankly loathe to try and determine that line of events based on a newspaper article. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be done. You can kill someone with a rolled up newspaper if you know how to use it.

My other point regarding whether she was "buried" or not could indicate the state of mind of the offender at the time. If she was "buried" in a half decent fashion, it would have shown premeditation and intent in my opinion, as opposed to the offender losing his rag, ending up killing her, when it may not have been his initial intent and then quickly dumping the body off the track behind a log, loosely covered with sticks, branches, etc (if indeed she was even covered with anything at all). I personally believe also that if she was killed by multiple people with intent, in a more "professional" manner, shall we say, the body wouldn't have been left the way it was, I would have expected a much tidier job of disposal or some method to better eliminate her identity, such as burning - not sticking her behind a log, with an item/items of clothing scattered about the place. If you have multiple people involved in an organised fashion (meaning murder in cold hard blood, with a purpose - not in a drug induced state for example) I would think that at least one or more of the offenders would want as much evidence removed as possible, and "many hands make light work", they would have moved her body to a more remote location that was better hidden - not relatively close to a main track and camping area.

That is of course if she was indeed killed at Belanglo. I'm personally still not 100% convinced, only because the police changed their minds on the matter. She may have been simply dumped there, as the police originally suspected, as a red herring, in which case, if the offender used his mobile at that stage, he may have simply been away on a trip (as far as friends, lovers and acquaintances were aware) and someone happened to ring him at that time, or he rang someone to say what time he'd be back, or someone else was aware he was off dumping the body, and they were checking in to see if he'd done it, and where, or any other scenario you can think of (I don't know how phone records/pings work - if they show calls in as well as calls out).

I'm also curious as to the t-shirt being found "near" the body. Does this mean she was semi dressed or naked at the time of her murder?

"T-shirt which was located by officers near the skeletal remains." (Italicised and bolded by me).

https://www.facebook.com/notes/nsw-police-force/detectives-release-image-of-female-found-at-belanglo-state-forest-homicidesquad/10150391124176394

"He said there also appeared to be clothing with the bones." (Italicised and bolded by me). Not on the bones, with the bones.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/human-skull-among-new-remains-found-in-belanglo-says-trail-biker-20100829-13xrq.html

The above is my opinion and thoughts only. :thinking:

 

[DutchTreat]

Really? Have you read the latest stats on domestic violence??
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...cale-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-2015-9

63 women in Australia alone at the time of this article (24th sept 2016) murdered.

And how many were left in a forest making it look like the work of a serial killer?
And how many of these women were victims of identity theft as well?

I get what you're saying. But there is DV leading to murder. But not to copy cat murder and stolen identities.

 

[Trooper]

Yes but I wonder how long between the last 'phony' contact was had to how long the facebook page was created.

I'm curious as to whether there was a reluctance from the Family to lodge another report due to fear of involving Police based on what rumours re. drugs that may have got back to them whether it was the truth or not......

I am absolutely not judging the Family on this. Its just a thought that has popped into my head.

I think the Family is dong a sterling job with regards to media.

It wasn't that long, really.. Colleens illness was aggressive and progressing.. a year?? perhaps less?

as to the motive of the family in re-reporting Karlie as a missing person, it may have been a matter of Colleen's death, and Connie's death that halted this direction.. who knows?? the family have not said, one could guess that perhaps no one knew exactly who could report Karlie as a Missing Person now..

And they had the experience of Karlie suddenly being 'Not Missing' a real anchor in determining to put it to the police again. No doubt , they wish they had, would things have been different? who knows.. of course, both Karlie and Khandalyce were long dead while this indecision was probably going on..

 

[Trooper]

And how many were left in a forest making it look like the work of a serial killer?
And how many of these women were victims of identity theft as well?

I get what you're saying. But there is DV leading to murder. But not to copy cat murder and stolen identities.

Logically.. no one knows how many... if the process is successful, as Karlie's impersonation and stolen identity was , plus not 'officially' missing, who knows how many? could be hundreds.... no one has checked every inch of every Australian forest, either.. .

 

[JaneSA]

Other dichotomies that bother me:

Carefully covering up 2 murders with ensuing subterfuge for 7 years VS keeping an out-of-date bank card unconcealed in a wallet.

Concealing child's remains for 7 years VS dumping them with her belongings in a public place.

Concealing the death of a child, again for 7 years VS keeping her birth certificate.

IMO these are not actions of one person, but more than one person.

 

[JaneSA]

Really? Have you read the latest stats on domestic violence??
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...cale-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-2015-9

63 women in Australia alone at the time of this article (24th sept 2016) murdered.

Yes, that's true.
But in DV the murder is seldom successfully covered up.

 

[DutchTreat]

Logically.. no one knows how many... if the process is successful, as Karlie's impersonation and stolen identity was , plus not 'officially' missing, who knows how many? could be hundreds.... no one has checked every inch of every Australian forest, either.. .

If you have other people (from outside of the relationship) helping you to pull off the stolen identity, it is not a standard case of DV.

 

[Makara]

Other dichotomies that bother me:

Carefully covering up 2 murders with ensuing subterfuge for 7 years VS keeping an out-of-date bank card unconcealed in a wallet.

Concealing child's remains for 7 years VS dumping them with her belongings in a public place.

Concealing the death of a child, again for 7 years VS keeping her birth certificate.

IMO these are not actions of one person, but more than one person.

Of course they're not and HP is well and truly on the police radar.

 

[Trooper]

To be fair to to Jane, trooper I will remind you there is and always has been, a drug element to this case. DH and HPA shared a home from which they fled leaving behind drug parafinalia, <modsnip> Connie, the grandmother, has a drug raid conducted on her house.

the story of the $25,000 , the story of the $5000 bounty, the story of the drugs that were not bought, but the money siphoned off, the story of the having to hide and run all came from the same source. Connies <modsnip> Carer, via the Adelaide Advertiser.. so to claim that the <modsnip> Carer is somehow part of the circle of DH and HPA and their peculiar problems at Hillcrest is one hell of a leap , without any known foundation or scaffolding whatsoever.. allow me to remind you to try and keep this reasonably real and grounded.