AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #8

[JaneSA]

Sleuth it JaneSA. That's what we do here. You could try Google or check through the Media/Timeline thread.

Yep. That is precisely what I have been doing Marka. Hence my question.

As I said, I cannot find a police statement to the effect that they have phone pings locating Holdom in Belanglo, so I asked if anyone else has found such statements.

My own sleuthing indicates that a statement on this topic from the police does not exist <modsnip>

 

[possumheart]

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...glo-forest-near-mothers-remains-police-allege

 

[JaneSA]

Thanks possumheat. Yep, that's one of many I saw and also one of the reason for my question.


In relation specifically to that story, I see an odd choice of words in the phrase "Police allegedly traced mobile phone... "


Allege means "to assert without proof or before proving".


So does that sentence mean - Police asserted without proof or before proving that they traced the mobile phone.
Would the police really assert something without proof? I doubt it.


IMO it is poor journalism, similar to the ubiquitous use of phrases such as "it is believed that police..." and similar.

This is precisely why I am wondering if there is any actual, verifiable police statement to the effect that they have phone ping evidence.
As I said, I am yet to find any.

 

[JaneSA]

I think it is about a reasonable assumption that a person is with their phone …. especially if there is other corroborating data such as sightings/ petrol receipts/ CCTV footage/witness statements that match the signal data and lead to that same assumption.

Thanks South Aussie.
Excellent!
You seem to know about the phone triangulation data, so can I ask you your opinion about our previous discussion?
It was about the possibility of tracing the movements of Karlie's phone after her death and correlating it to the movement of another person's phone.
If it was possible to get that data, would the 2 phones (Karlie's and another person's phone) ping as being in the same location.
Are the pings initiated by the towers or by the phones?

 

[Wolfinator]

Thanks South Aussie.
Excellent!
You seem to know about the phone triangulation data, so can I ask you your opinion about our previous discussion?
It was about the possibility of tracing the movements of Karlie's phone after her death and correlating it to the movement of another person's phone.
If it was possible to get that data, would the 2 phones (Karlie's and another person's phone) ping as being in the same location.
Are the pings initiated by the towers or by the phones?

Jane if the phones are in close proximity and on the same carrier network/cell tower the data would look very similar and hence assumed to be together. If the phones are on different networks further analysis would give a similar result but take more legwork IMO.

In terms of pings its ph>tower>ph

Why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LolaAngelina]

Thanks possumheat. Yep, that's one of many I saw and also one of the reason for my question.


In relation specifically to that story, I see an odd choice of words in the phrase "Police allegedly traced mobile phone... "


Allege means "to assert without proof or before proving".


So does that sentence mean - Police asserted without proof or before proving that they traced the mobile phone.
Would the police really assert something without proof? I doubt it.


IMO it is poor journalism, similar to the ubiquitous use of phrases such as "it is believed that police..." and similar.

This is precisely why I am wondering if there is any actual, verifiable police statement to the effect that they have phone ping evidence.
As I said, I am yet to find any.

Yes well we could use the same argument people used for the drug running story couldnt we? Police didnt deny so must be true :thinking:

 

[Amee]

What I mean is, I can find quotes like this one from Sky News, that say "It's understood police have been able to trace a telephone belonging to Holdom via pings off mobile phone towers in the Belanglo State Forest", but phrases like "it is understood" hide a myriad of journalistic sins.
Have the police actually stated this as a fact?

Media do attend Court hearings and also have access to Court documents, charge sheets etc ....
Some members from here may also attend..

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ance-with-murder/story-fni0cx12-1227586153756

 

[they'll get you]

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...glo-forest-near-mothers-remains-police-allege

Thanks poss :seeya:

I find this amazing considering DH had Karlie's card in his wallet.

Asked if his client had indicated if he had known Pearce-Stevenson, lawyer Peter Cleaves replied: &#8220;No.&#8221;

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...glo-forest-near-mothers-remains-police-allege

 

[purpleandgreen]

I think this & its ambiguity have been mulled over before.

It isn't clear whether he means, 'No, DH didn't indicate this', or whether it meant that DH had denied knowing her.

Once again, poor journalism, as has been noted many times on not only K&K's threads, but also others.

Thanks poss :seeya:

I find this amazing considering DH had Karlie's card in his wallet.

Asked if his client had indicated if he had known Pearce-Stevenson, lawyer Peter Cleaves replied: &#8220;No.&#8221;

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...glo-forest-near-mothers-remains-police-allege

 

[Trooper]

Thanks poss :seeya:

I find this amazing considering DH had Karlie's card in his wallet.

Asked if his client had indicated if he had known Pearce-Stevenson, lawyer Peter Cleaves replied: &#8220;No.&#8221;

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...glo-forest-near-mothers-remains-police-allege

and even odder, it turns out that he , it is alleged, took 2 suitcases of stuff to his sisters place, and lo and behold, Khandalyce's birth certificate is found at the sisters place.. coinkidink? now ... that's bad luck, here s 2 persons you don't know, both of whom are murdered and hidden for years, and whaddayaknow, in your pocket you have one dead persons card, and at Sis's place, the other dead persons birth certificate... I just don't know. It's awful.

 

[JaneSA]

Yes well we could use the same argument people used for the drug running story couldnt we? Police didnt deny so must be true :thinking:

Agreed. It is wise the be cynical when reading or listening to the media.

 

[possumheart]

Ambiguity and omission can be a strategic tools IMO

 

[purpleandgreen]

Yes Jane, It's that sort of journalism that can create false facts so to speaks. Because it's in MSM people think it must be true. But you are right; there is a big difference between something that is alleged or asserted and something has been stated by LE to be a fact.

Thanks possumheat. Yep, that's one of many I saw and also one of the reason for my question.


In relation specifically to that story, I see an odd choice of words in the phrase "Police allegedly traced mobile phone... "


Allege means "to assert without proof or before proving".


So does that sentence mean - Police asserted without proof or before proving that they traced the mobile phone.
Would the police really assert something without proof? I doubt it.


IMO it is poor journalism, similar to the ubiquitous use of phrases such as "it is believed that police..." and similar.

This is precisely why I am wondering if there is any actual, verifiable police statement to the effect that they have phone ping evidence.
As I said, I am yet to find any.

 

[purpleandgreen]

Totally agree, possumheart. We are not privy to what the LE ask MSM to say or not to say and MSM reports can be a powerful weapon. We never know whether allegations or assertions are strategic or just poor journalism, unfortunately. It would answer a lot of questions if we did.

Ambiguity and omission can be a strategic tools IMO

 

[Trooper]

Thanks possumheat. Yep, that's one of many I saw and also one of the reason for my question.


In relation specifically to that story, I see an odd choice of words in the phrase "Police allegedly traced mobile phone... "


Allege means "to assert without proof or before proving".


So does that sentence mean - Police asserted without proof or before proving that they traced the mobile phone.
Would the police really assert something without proof? I doubt it.


IMO it is poor journalism, similar to the ubiquitous use of phrases such as "it is believed that police..." and similar.

This is precisely why I am wondering if there is any actual, verifiable police statement to the effect that they have phone ping evidence.
As I said, I am yet to find any.

All of the elements of this crime are ipso facto allegations at this time. Everything. Even the fact that Karlie's family have accepted the bones and remains as alleged by the Coroner to be Karlie and Khandalyce have not been tested in court as yet. It really is a matter of what level of proof at this point in the proceedings would be satisfactory .

The NSW and the SA police have made assertions and allegations. As far as is known ,Mr Holdom has not denied any of them, or made a plea in regard to these allegations, he has merely appeared in court as is proper, although he didn't even want to do that. It was a matter of the magistrate enforcing this.

The time for actual verifiable , and from this I assume you mean tested in a court of law, the defence providing proof of it's deniability and the prosecution providing proof of its acceptability, both adjudicated by a judge and measured by a jury hasn't arrived yet. What you ask for is not available. Who would you expect to verify the police allegation that they have ping evidence? Some other police? some ping expert under who's authority? the Premier? . some sort of Websleuths judge, in a special websleuths court? Les Day's mum? I just don't know.

 

[JaneSA]

Jane if the phones are in close proximity and on the same carrier network/cell tower the data would look very similar and hence assumed to be together. If the phones are on different networks further analysis would give a similar result but take more legwork IMO.

In terms of pings its ph>tower>ph

Why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you mean why am I interested?
I am interested because we know someone used Karlie's phone several times after her death for those proof of life calls to her family and friends.
Presumably the approximate location of her phone can be traced at the time of those calls or texts.
But also, if it is possible to know where her phone was, it may be possible to work out what other phonees were in the same area at the time, thereby linking a perp to the general area.

 

[JaneSA]

All of the elements of this crime are ipso facto allegations at this time. Everything. Even the fact that Karlie's family have accepted the bones and remains as alleged by the Coroner to be Karlie and Khandalyce have not been tested in court as yet. It really is a matter of what level of proof at this point in the proceedings would be satisfactory .

The NSW and the SA police have made assertions and allegations. As far as is known ,Mr Holdom has not denied any of them, or made a plea in regard to these allegations, he has merely appeared in court as is proper, although he didn't even want to do that. It was a matter of the magistrate enforcing this.

The time for actual verifiable , and from this I assume you mean tested in a court of law, the defence providing proof of it's deniability and the prosecution providing proof of its acceptability, both adjudicated by a judge and measured by a jury hasn't arrived yet. What you ask for is not available. Who would you expect to verify the police allegation that they have ping evidence? Some other police? some ping expert under who's authority? the Premier? . some sort of Websleuths judge, in a special websleuths court? Les Day's mum? I just don't know.

Maybe I didn't explain exactly what I meant. Sorry.
I mean I wonder where the idea that the police have phone ping information originated, as it does not seem that it came from the police.
It is not that I doubt the police in any way. It is that I question the source of the report.
If there is an official police statement about phone pings that is what I am looking for and what I am unable to find.

 

[Trooper]

Yes Jane, It's that sort of journalism that can create false facts so to speaks. Because it's in MSM people think it must be true. But you are right; there is a big difference between something that is alleged or asserted and something has been stated by LE to be a fact.

even that isn't correct... EVERYTHING is an allegation at this point in time. The word , as used in newspapers on reporting Police statements is quite correct, both grammatically, and legally. The Police allege. The time the allegations stop and the actual claim of fact begins during the prosecution session of the trial. Up until then, anything, everything as reported in MSN or even on the SAPOL site, is an allegation. .

Allegation is the correct wording. There is no other until the trial starts, then allegations become , as they are being tested by both the defence and the prosecution as facts. When the jury gives its verdict, and the judge sums it all up and does the sentencing, the facts become AGREED FACTS.

the process. Allegations.

Facts. ( these are claims both sides put forward , and usually both sides disagreeing on them )

Agreed facts.. this is what allegations and facts become when the jury hands down it's verdict. These are what the judge uses in his summing up and sentencing phase.

 

[Makara]

Maybe I didn't explain exactly what I meant. Sorry.
I mean I wonder where the idea that the police have phone ping information originated, as it does not seem that it came from the police.
It is not that I doubt the police in any way. It is that I question the source of the report.
If there is an official police statement about phone pings that is what I am looking for and what I am unable to find.

You won't find an official police statement about the phone pings! Why would the police release a statement about any evidence they may have in this case? They are not obligated to release a statement about anything if they choose not to. The evidence they have will be submitted to the DPP in this case and that's all that matters.

 

[Wolfinator]

Do you mean why am I interested?
I am interested because we know someone used Karlie's phone several times after her death for those proof of life calls to her family and friends.
Presumably the approximate location of her phone can be traced at the time of those calls or texts.
But also, if it is possible to know where her phone was, it may be possible to work out what other phonees were in the same area at the time, thereby linking a perp to the general area.

Yep - I'm pretty sure they are on to that - right down to when voice mails were accessed.

The why related to the question about what initiated the ping - the ph or the tower?


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