Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

[MsAnais]

quick comment............One of the cleanest suicides I have read about. There was no reason for her to kill her self outside. She could have easy have done so inside the home and used the knife. Unless she was concerned about the resell value of the home. Perhaps perspective buyers would decline to purchase if she killed her self inside the home. So she did it outside.
If she could have been carried away on that plywood and the knife removed from the scene, there would have been no evidence any crime occurred outside the home. She would have just been missing.

One thing that sticks in my mind is when he got home one of the first things he noticed was a knife missing. How would you know a knife is missing unless you looked for it? I would have not known a knife was missing until I went to use it.

Do they ask persons to take a polygraph in Australia as they do here in the states?
Have a good day, evening everyone.

My understanding is that polygraphs aren't generally used here, MrTT. It's never really caught on like in the US - and the results aren't admissable in court.

The accuracy of polygraphs is a bit suspect anyway - often the narcissist or psychopath passes the polygraph because they don't respond in the same way emotionally as the 'average' person. They're cool as a cucumber :facepalm:

:seeya:

 

[laserdisc10]

Off topic so please remove if you wish

Just wanted to let people know (those who don't know) that there's a thread about Lindy Williams and George Gerbic, otherwise known as the 'Torso Murder'

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-body-at-Cedar-Pocket-180km-north-of-Brisbane


It's a grisly crime. 66 year old George Gerbic, divorced father of two adult sons was found dismembered and burned near a roadside near Gympie, Queensland, Australia, ten months approx. ago. It took until recently for police to identify the remains, based on traces of medication in his system

Mid July 2014, George's alleged long-time girlfriend, Lindy Williams, was charged with George's murder and improper interference with a corpse. Lindy is approx. 55 years old, also a mother of two adult sons, and is described as a businesswoman

Although little information's available at the moment, it seems Lindy has been living in the house she and George shared since his murder. Few if any were aware anything was wrong or that George was missing. Apparently, Lindy had been sending emails using George's ID, pretending to be George and saying all was well

George has been described as a heavily built man between 180 and 190cms. Lindy has been described as a 'small' middle aged woman

Apart from George's torso, police have been unable to find the rest of George's remains

How did a 'small' middle aged woman kill, dismember and transport a large man?

Lindy is next due in court in September 2014

 

[MsAnais]

Off topic so please remove if you wish

Just wanted to let people know (those who don't know) that there's a thread about Lindy Williams and George Gerbic, otherwise known as the 'Torso Murder'

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-body-at-Cedar-Pocket-180km-north-of-Brisbane


It's a grisly crime. 66 year old George Gerbic, divorced father of two adult sons was found dismembered and burned near a roadside near Gympie, Queensland, Australia, ten months approx. ago. It took until recently for police to identify the remains, based on traces of medication in his system

Mid July 2014, George's alleged long-time girlfriend, Lindy Williams, was charged with George's murder and improper interference with a corpse. Lindy is approx. 55 years old, also a mother of two adult sons, and is described as a businesswoman

Although little information's available at the moment, it seems Lindy has been living in the house she and George shared since his murder. Few if any were aware anything was wrong or that George was missing. Apparently, Lindy had been sending emails using George's ID, pretending to be George and saying all was well

George has been described as a heavily built man between 180 and 190cms. Lindy has been described as a 'small' middle aged woman

Apart from George's torso, police have been unable to find the rest of George's remains

How did a 'small' middle aged woman kill, dismember and transport a large man?

Lindy is next due in court in September 2014

Thank you! I just read about that case in MSM. Didn't realise there was a WS thread........heading over there now :seeya:

 

[they'll get you]

You could be very right ... drawing breath into a punctured lung could be all she could try to do, screaming may not have been possible. Especially if it was a quick and unexpected attack.

Also ... is it possible that the bathrobe belt was used, not only to hold the sheet over Jenny's face/head, but also to choke her just enough so that she went into involuntary submission and was easier to deal with, and in trying to breathe any screams were subdued? It was perhaps made of a soft enough fabric, and being tied over the sheet, that it did not leave obvious deep marks on her neck.
(Not that Prof David Williams would have thought they had anything to do with a crime anyway )

Or the bathrobe belt could have been used as a gag, and then slipped down around her neck when it was released and she fell to the ground.

Dennis Rader a US notorious serial killer known as BTK (bound, torture, kill) used a pillow case over a plastic bag and a tie so the victim could not tear the plastic. Could the sheet been used in this way and then the plastic bag been removed? The sheet and the robe-belt makes me wonder.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Oh laserdisc, hasn't buster been thru enough already! http://mythbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Buster

 

[FigTree]

Well this is the thing. Didn't the neighbour state the dog had been howling between x and y hours, and it was down the side of the house?

PC claimed, didn't he, that the dog was left on the balcony?

I'd take the neighbour's word against that of PC any day. Even the coroner said at the conclusion of the findings that PC had been evasive and sometimes dishonest. So I'm with the coroner and the neighbour

What you're saying makes sense. But it conflicts with the neighbour's statement

Would Jenny have left her dog on the balcony? Not in my opinion. A murderer would, though

So what happened that afternoon?

I've asked elsewhere if professor Williams tested for animal saliva on Jenny's face and arms, etc. To my knowledge no such tests or findings were included in the autopsy report. Yet if the dog had been down the side of the house with Jenny during and after the time she died, there's a strong possibility the dog licked her -- to comfort her and to comfort itself

Respectfully snipped by me...
and my bold

... and I agree!

So where was the dog?

1) Lets assume that the dog was down the side of the building all day as the witness stated in their testimony.
The witness said that they thought the dog was at the side of the house behind the gate in the are where Jenny was.
The witness lives across the road - and had a view of the house.

2) The dog was on the front balcony all day - where PJC found it when he got home.
Which I dont think is plausible. It wasn't seen by the neighbour and PJC made no comment of the dog messing the front balcony, or thinking it had been there all day.
If the dog was on the front balcony crying between noon and 3.30pm approx - it would have been seen by the resident.


or was it the case that: ....

3) The dog was moved by someone at some time (around 3.30pm) from the side of the house and was placed on the top floor front of the house balcony. At around this time the dog stopped crying and the neighbour stopped worrying about the dog.

But...
If the dog was not on the front balcony as PJC said - the dog would had been around the side of the house in the area where Jenny was - Jenny would have been seen at this time - 7.00pm approx, it was still light.

Something seems wrong here about the story of the dog -


To add:
There looks to be a gate on the side balcony enclosure. It may have kept the dog from getting to Jenny.
Maybe it was tied up around the side of the house - maybe on a grass area.
If the dog was loose with Jenny on the balcony itself there would have been paw prints of blood or vomit or some trace of dog hair or saliva (as you mentioned before) on her, or on the balcony or in the mesh or rungs of the side back door.
JMOO



References:
The Report: PJC said: He found the dog shut out on the upstairs balcony.
MSM reports: (PJC)...he arrived home at around 6.45pm, and was surprised to find the dog locked up on the property's front balcony and Jenny Lee nowhere to be seen.
From the Report:
Ms Cavanagh lived across the road from the Cook’s house. She said she recalled the day Ms Cook died as police had come to her house later that night. She was at home that day and she heard the Cook’s dog crying. It began about midday and did not stop until about 3pm or 4pm that afternoon. She believed it was down the side of the house behind the fence (where Ms Cook’s body was found). She was concerned that it was hurt or caught on something as she had never heard the dog crying before.

 

[they'll get you]

I've asked elsewhere if professor Williams tested for animal saliva on Jenny's face and arms, etc. To my knowledge no such tests or findings were included in the autopsy report. Yet if the dog had been down the side of the house with Jenny during and after the time she died, there's a strong possibility the dog licked her -- to comfort her and to comfort itself

RSBM

The farmer who owned the property where Anita Cobby was found noticed the cows milling together in the paddock and when he investigated he found Anita's body. It's believed the cows were licking Anita as they would a new born calf. So yes, animals do exactly that.
I can't find the link but I think this information was in the book 'Someone else's daughter'.
Also many dogs have cuddled up to lost children to keep them warm and the children have survived freezing weather.
Wow, and we think we are the superior race? NOT!

 

[laserdisc10]

Why didn't Jenny's mother stay with her at the house, I wonder. Was it because PC didn't get along with Jenny's mum? Would Jenny's mother have known before she flew up to help Jenny recover from surgery that she wouldn't be staying at the house?

So much of this case doesn't appear to make sense. Death outdoors, for example. Dying or killing outdoors in a suburban location magnifies the risk of discovery, whether it's a case of trying to kill yourself or killing someone else. Many houses have cctv now, for instance, and there's no way to know if you're being filmed as you move around in your yard or entering and leaving your own driveway. Many people are home during the day for one reason or another. There's no way to know if you're being observed. People have telescopes set up to watch the night sky or binoculars to watch birds and could, intentionally or not, observe their neighbours also. So there would have to be compelling reasons to stage a suicide or murder out of doors in preference to indoors

It's been suggested the reason was concern about the property's resale value. But if a person is consumed by the need to end their life, surely the last thing on their mind would be posthumous property value?

Then there's the planning which went into the fixing of the knife; the string, the tape, the location and the scrupulous removal of fingerprints. Not even glove-marks on the dusty window frame according to the forensics. The placement of the board. The conveying of that heavy, awkward board, yet no drag marks

No suicide note, no instructions about the dog, yet so much planning went into Jenny's death

PC told work mates that morning that his marriage was over. Police said PC told them when he couldn't find Jenny, leading him to believe she'd left him, he was 'happy'. Why tell work mates his marriage was over on that particular morning? What happened the night before to make him say that and make him believe Jenny had left him?

If someone had wedged the knife in place the day Jenny died, why were there no traces at all of finger or glove prints on the undisturbed, dusty window frame? How is that possible? Were there any cuts on Jenny's hands? Were there any cuts on PC's hands?

If Jenny had decided to kill herself by impaling herself on a knife wedged in a window frame (and I don't believe it) why go to the trouble to wind string around the knife followed by tape when all she needed to do was wrap a tea-towel or something around the knife handle to make it thick enough to stay in place?

If Jenny handled that knife extensively while applying string and tape and jamming it in the frame (I don't believe she did) why would she even think of removing her finger-prints?

Why was Williams so quick to label it a suicide? And why did the police accept it?

PC doesn't want ghosts in the house? How stupid is he to believe walls pose any obstacle to ghosts? Or was he mindful of the house's resale value even then at that early stage, and didn't mean he actually cared about ghosts, although potential buyers of the house might?

 

[FigTree]

Yep. Williams and Osborn. Two I wouldn't trust to walk my dog to echo Ainsworth

Williams arrived approx. 10.30

And somewhere, I read that Osborn never went closer than five or ten metres from the body (?)

Yet those two dominated the entire case. Had Jenny buried as a suicide. Gave the house back to PC within 24 hours. Destroyed the vital evidence. Osborn in particular needs a psyche test in my opinion only. Ditto Williams, again my opinion based on what we've learned

And Queensland taxpayers are still feeding them? Scandal -- again, my opinion only

Just to add - the initial thoughts that seeded the impression of suicide (after it was deemed to not be a cardiac arrest) came from PJC...
yet...the Coroner said in summary: Ms Cook apparently did not indicate to any person that she had been or was contemplating suicide.
... There was no event identified which would explain such an action when she had been improving both physically and mentally;

Other references to leading and seeding...

During the course of their discussion in the kitchen and another formal interview later that night, Cook repeats his certainty that Jenny Lee killed herself - although he has no idea how she did it.
-----
Later, Cook says when he first saw her body he thought Jenny had jumped on the knife or she had overdosed.
-----
Paul tells the interviewing detectives that while they "never fought", Jenny Lee would have "a sook" about her chronic back problems "hundreds of times" and would "crack the " and be "a moody *****".
-----
First he thought she might have jumped from the balcony and then that she’d overdosed but someone said there was a knife there;
-----
Professor Williams, the forensic pathologist, had attended the scene and told police that he thought Ms Cook had committed suicide.
-----
When asked how she could have determined the matter was a suicide when she had not even confirmed the version of the only possible suspect, Osborn stated that she made the decision based on the evidence at the scene (which she had already admitted she had not looked at) and the results of the post mortem.
-----
It was established by her evidence and the questions asked of her and propositions put to her that she decided shortly after arriving at the house that Ms Cook had committed suicide. It is unclear why she came to this conclusion but it seems the reaction of Mr Cook to the death and the fact that he told her that Ms Cook was suffering from depression must have contributed to this belief.
-----
At 1.40am on 20 January 2009 DS Osborn sent an email to ‘Inquiries Townsville’ (police) stating that the death was being treated as suspicious pending the outcome of the post mortem but would more than likely be ruled a suicide.

 

[laserdisc10]

Respectfully snipped by me...
and my bold

... and I agree!

So where was the dog?

1) Lets assume that the dog was down the side of the building all day as the witness stated in their testimony.
The witness said that they thought the dog was at the side of the house behind the gate in the are where Jenny was.
The witness lives across the road - and had a view of the house.

2) The dog was on the front balcony all day - where PJC found it when he got home.
Which I dont think is plausible. It wasn't seen by the neighbour and PJC made no comment of the dog messing the front balcony, or thinking it had been there all day.
If the dog was on the front balcony crying between noon and 3.30pm approx - it would have been seen by the resident.


or was it the case that: ....

3) The dog was moved by someone at some time (around 3.30pm) from the side of the house and was placed on the top floor front of the house balcony. At around this time the dog stopped crying and the neighbour stopped worrying about the dog.

But...
If the dog was not on the front balcony as PJC said - the dog would had been around the side of the house in the area where Jenny was - Jenny would have been seen at this time - 7.00pm approx, it was still light.

Something seems wrong here about the story of the dog -


To add:
There looks to be a gate on the side balcony enclosure. It may have kept the dog from getting to Jenny.
Maybe it was tied up around the side of the house - maybe on a grass area.
If the dog was loose with Jenny on the balcony itself there would have been paw prints of blood or vomit or some trace of dog hair or saliva (as you mentioned before) on her, or on the balcony or in the mesh or rungs of the side back door.
JMOO

I don't have a plan of the house. All I've seen is a photo someone posted, taken from the front

But, if the dog had been with the body, it would mean PC would have no excuse for not noticing Jenny's body far earlier than claimed -- is that what you mean? Because if it is what you're thinking, I agree

Sure, he could still claim he hadn't been aware of the body because the dog ran to him as usual when he came home after work and opened the back door. But it would be more convincing to claim he arrived home to find the dog locked on the balcony because it would avoid the side area altogether. I don't suppose it entered his mind (until the afternoon)that neighbours might become curious and concerned when hearing the dog crying for a prolonged period, although he might have thought of it by early afternoon.. Nor could PC have known the neighbour across the road would be home that day. Maybe someone from the street phoned him to say the dog was kicking up a fuss, we don't know

<modsnip>

But didn't they have windows in their house? When PC got home and Jenny didn't answer when he called --- it never occurred to him to take a look down the side of the house or pull the curtains back to see if she was out there?

Based on what we can gather, the dog was at the side of the house during the hours the neighbour heard it crying. Then the crying stopped. And I can understand the neighbour's concern because a distressed animal triggers anxiety in us, followed by relief if we think everything's ok

I think it's very plausible to suspect the dog was brought inside and put on the balcony. Jenny couldn't do that. How many people lived there? Only Jenny and PC? Who else but PC could have brought the dog inside and put it on the balcony

That leads me to suspect PC had an alternate route to the property. It's something I've suspected for a while; a route which didn't include driving up the street as normal, to his front yard

A few days ago, someone said (Ausgirl I think) that they hadn't realised just how much vacant/open land surrounded the house back in 2009. Presumably the roads would already have been there, but quite possibly there were many vacant blocks then. If there was vacant land behind or next door to Jenny's house, how easy would it have been to hop over the fence to enter and exit the property without being seen by neighbours in their street. Jenny could have been murdered, left to die - all achieved by a quick hop over the back fence - followed by an innocent arrival at the house hours later. And wasn't PC' late back from lunch and left early because of a 'headache'?

In the same way, it could have been realized that maybe the dog wouldn't leave Jenny when called for its walk in the evening. Next door neighbours could have been home later in the afternoon also and might hear him dragging the dog from Jenny's side to take it for that innocent walk. There would be no excuses for not finding Jenny hours earlier if next door neighbours heard PC dragging a whining dog back down the side of the house. So maybe a mid-afternoon light-bulb moment, followed by a quick drive home - another hop over the back fence - get the dog and put it out on the balcony - another hop over the fence and away. Then the role-playing of Mr Normal taking the dog for its evening walk and not even noticing Jenny lying out at the side of the house until emptying the dishwasher and noticing that missing knife, etc

At the moment I have no explanation for lack of paw prints at the side of the house where Jenny lay

 

[laserdisc10]

Just to add - the initial thoughts that seeded the impression of suicide (after it was deemed to not be a cardiac arrest) came from PJC...

Thanks Fig Tree. I must have missed that. Didn't realise he'd begun seeding a suicide theory from the start

By the way, just so I'm sure, PJC = PC ?

 

[Ausgirl]

Just a couple of FYI's:

- The "jumped on the knife" thing is, I believe, a misquote. The same quote elsewhere says "jumped from the balcony". Which made me wonder if Jenny had been pushed off the balcony, heh.

- The fingerprints on the knife weren't 'removed', they were never investigated at all. There might have been indistinct prints on the window grill though, I found a statement from a SOCO (but ya think I can find a link to it now? nuh. but it exists!) who said something about prints, and they were of no use for comparison - possibly just smudges? This made me think " gloveprints".

- The balcony seems to face the street but also continues around the side of the house, I am not sure how far. I have looked at the pictures pretty hard, and it doesn't seem to have 'windows' but has a fan in the ceiling? Is a thing up there? To have fans on open balconies? Anyway, if it was open NO way would a dog lover leave the dog up there with a/ no water and b/ a good chance of jumping and hurting itself.

I keep coming back to the dog, and the damned sheet as well, they are just doing my head in. Like there's an answer there but I can't see it. :\

 

[FigTree]

I spend today looking over a QLD Coroners Reports -
And found this:

It is a long read - extensive - (120 pages)
Julie-Anne Leahy and Vicki Arnold killings.

Briefly: In 1992 the death of Julie-Anne Leahy and Vicki Arnold were considered a Murder-Suicide.
It was thought - One woman had shot the other, and then taken her own life.
It was initially reported as a Missing Persons case - the woman had gone late night fishing and not returned.
When their bodies were found 2 weeks later in the 4WD that they had been travelling, within an hour of the Police arriving and an investigation underway, the scene was determined as a Murder-Suicide.
They were wrong.

It will read familiar with a few recent cases:
Police determining murder-suicide /Evidence mishandled and destroyed or not collected / Expert opinions re-examined / Autopsy Reports / witness statements / Independent Reports / QLD cost cuttings / motives not examined or submitted ......

The 3rd and Final Inquest Report from the Coroner for this case was dated 1st March 2013.


It has taken 3 Inquests - from the findings for the Coroner to decide that Alan Leahy (husband), was to stand trial for the murder of his wife Julie-Anne Leahy and her friend Vicki Arnold in 1992.

The Findings, the Recommendations, and the Riders in the report come just prior to the Findings in Jennifer's Case.

If the Recommendations, Conclusions, Summary and the Ridings from the 1992 case and Jennys case were followed through - Jenny could get answers....


But, then, at the end of all the millions of dollars spent to finally get an answer - Justice is an empty plate.
After you had read the Inquest Findings -
Read this... :facepalm:

 

[FigTree]

I don't have a plan of the house. All I've seen is a photo someone posted, taken from the front

But, if the dog had been with the body, it would mean PC would have no excuse for not noticing Jenny's body far earlier than claimed -- is that what you mean? Because if it is what you're thinking, I agree

Sure, he could still claim he hadn't been aware of the body because the dog ran to him as usual when he came home after work and opened the back door. But it would be more convincing to claim he arrived home to find the dog locked on the balcony because it would avoid the side area altogether. I don't suppose it entered his mind (until the afternoon)that neighbours might become curious and concerned when hearing the dog crying for a prolonged period, although he might have thought of it by early afternoon.. Nor could PC have known the neighbour across the road would be home that day. Maybe someone from the street phoned him to say the dog was kicking up a fuss, we don't know

Respectfully snipped and agreed

Yes, my thoughts were that someone could have placed the dog on the balcony as an after thought later in the afternoon to keep the dog away from Jenny and/or to keep it quiet.
or
Just say the dog was on the front balcony.

What I was thinking was, that a person doing this would not realize that the dog had been barking all day and roused interest from a neighbour. To say the dog is on the front balcony all day only works until the neighbour tells the Police independently of the person - that that is not what happened that day.
Then things start to fall apart just a little (lot).

The property had easy access from the rear and side due to the amount of vacant land.
There are trail through the bush and there are roads that access those trails.
Sheerwater is isolated from flow though traffic, and has other cul-de-sacs further along - but it is accessible by foot.
What also interest me is the amount of builders and tradies around the area too. They would generate non residential (unfamiliar vehicle) traffic and cars and vans passing through the area.

Much more to say, but...........

Got to fftobed: now before I fall asleep on my keyboard
:seeya:
It was a new estate in 2009. The difference can be seen by doing the street view - which is 2007 - a satellite view 2009 - 2014.

 

[laserdisc10]

Just a couple of FYI's:

- The "jumped on the knife" thing is, I believe, a misquote. The same quote elsewhere says "jumped from the balcony". Which made me wonder if Jenny had been pushed off the balcony, heh.

- The fingerprints on the knife weren't 'removed', they were never investigated at all. There might have been indistinct prints on the window grill though, I found a statement from a SOCO (but ya think I can find a link to it now? nuh. but it exists!) who said something about prints, and they were of no use for comparison - possibly just smudges? This made me think " gloveprints".

- The balcony seems to face the street but also continues around the side of the house, I am not sure how far. I have looked at the pictures pretty hard, and it doesn't seem to have 'windows' but has a fan in the ceiling? Is a thing up there? To have fans on open balconies? Anyway, if it was open NO way would a dog lover leave the dog up there with a/ no water and b/ a good chance of jumping and hurting itself.

I keep coming back to the dog, and the damned sheet as well, they are just doing my head in. Like there's an answer there but I can't see it. :\

Re: the prints, this is what I've been working from. I thought it would be more accurate than the media, but could be wrong

Kraatz gave evidence that he examined the window frame and he found no fingerprints. He found no evidence that the window frame had been wiped clean (as there was fine dust on the window which was consistent with what he would expect from an external window) and that there was no evidence that someone had touched the window with gloves (in which case he would expect to see marks in the dust and there were none)

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf


Earlier in the above document, there's also this:

Ms Pullen said that the day after Ms Cook’s death DS Osborn phoned her and told her that Ms Cook had died of a knife wound to the chest and that it was self-inflicted. Ms Pullen phoned her back shortly afterwards and said that she thought this was impossible. DS Osborn assured her it was the case and told her that only Ms Cook’s fingerprints had been found on the knife

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf


Same document:

SOCO Brad Bardell arrived at the scene at 9.38pm.
Kraatz and Bardell tape lifted the knife handle for trace DNA and took photographs of it. Kraatz conducted a fingerprint examination of the metal security grill and frame but did not locate any fingerprints that would be suitable for comparison purposes

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf

 

[laserdisc10]

Respectfully snipped and agreed

Yes, my thoughts were that someone could have placed the dog on the balcony as an after thought later in the afternoon to keep the dog away from Jenny and/or to keep it quiet.
orJust say the dog was on the front balcony.

What I was thinking was, that a person doing this would not realize that the dog had been barking all day and roused interest from a neighbour. To say the dog is on the front balcony all day only works until the neighbour tells the Police independently of the person - that that is not what happened that day.
Then things start to fall apart just a little (lot).

The property had easy access from the rear and side due to the amount of vacant land.
There are trail through the bush and there are roads that access those trails.
Sheerwater is isolated from flow though traffic, and has other cul-de-sacs further along - but it is accessible by foot.
What also interest me is the amount of builders and tradies around the area too. They would generate non residential (unfamiliar vehicle) traffic and cars and vans passing through the area.

Much more to say, but...........

Got to fftobed: now before I fall asleep on my keyboard
:seeya:
It was a new estate in 2009. The difference can be seen by doing the street view - which is 2007 - a satellite view 2009 - 2014.

The property had easy access from the rear and side due to the amount of vacant land.
There are trail through the bush and there are roads that access those trails

Thanks for the above, Fig Tree. That's how I visualised it. Should have occurred to me to check Street View. Didn't think of it. My brain's a fog. Too many late nights. Thanks for reminding me and for providing the name of the street

Builders and tradies - good thinking. Were they in the area during the time Jenny died, do you know?

 

[laserdisc10]

Just a couple of FYI's:

- The "jumped on the knife" thing is, I believe, a misquote. The same quote elsewhere says "jumped from the balcony". Which made me wonder if Jenny had been pushed off the balcony, heh.

- The fingerprints on the knife weren't 'removed', they were never investigated at all. There might have been indistinct prints on the window grill though, I found a statement from a SOCO (but ya think I can find a link to it now? nuh. but it exists!) who said something about prints, and they were of no use for comparison - possibly just smudges? This made me think " gloveprints".

- The balcony seems to face the street but also continues around the side of the house, I am not sure how far. I have looked at the pictures pretty hard, and it doesn't seem to have 'windows' but has a fan in the ceiling? Is a thing up there? To have fans on open balconies? Anyway, if it was open NO way would a dog lover leave the dog up there with a/ no water and b/ a good chance of jumping and hurting itself.

I keep coming back to the dog, and the damned sheet as well, they are just doing my head in. Like there's an answer there but I can't see it. :\

Ausgirl, took me this long to find a photo of the house, which I've saved now I've finally got it

It's the same photo which someone posted here in the last few days, from a real estate site

Think it's the same one you're working from, the front view. Yes, a lot of places have ceiling fans 'outdoors' because they spend a lot of time outside so it makes sense to have a bit of breeze, especially in humid places

I don't think the balcony goes around the side. Think what we see is what there is -- a front balcony. And the real estate blurb says, 'glorious views of the river from the main bedroom and private balcony'. Also says, 'wonderful tiled back patio overlooking the well kept lawn and gardens'. If there were a second balcony, they'd mention it as a selling point, imo

It might look from some angles as if that front balcony wraps around the side, I suppose, but to me, it's simply the timber balcony rail at right angle to the front, and then abutting the white wall next to that narrow window -- all on the side of the house and overlooking where Jenny was found

At first, I thought the balcony railings might have stainless steel wires running through (below the timber top rail) but it's too hard to tell if its wires -- or if the 'lines' I can see there are in fact plantation shutters (internal) on the door and narrow window behind. In any case, even if there are steel wires, a dog would easily push between them if it wanted to

It's my feeling right now that the neighbour knew what she heard, and that was a dog in distress behind the gates at the side of the house. Then, I suspect, 'someone' took the dog from the side and up onto the balcony, at which point, the neighbour no longer heard the dog. For all we know, PC could have been home to stay at that point, because according to the neighbour, the dog stopped crying. To my mind, if the dog had been left alone on the balcony mid to late afternoon, it would have continued crying. Also, that balcony is square or close to. And on the left hand side (as we look at it) the dog would still have been able to see Jenny down below - the dog would basically have been overlooking where Jenny lay

But, if someone with whom the dog was familiar was in the house, the dog wouldn't have felt so distressed and could well have stopped barking

I have next to no faith that the various accounts of PC's activities that day. He seemed to be all over the place. And who was there to monitor his movements, seeing the clock-in thing was broken, etc. He came back from lunch late -- left early. For all we know, he could have been at home most of the day. Things seemed very slack at his place of employment, not that they'd want that to get around

It may be that PC was in the house from the time he took the dog up onto the balcony. He might have left the door behind the balcony ajar slightly so the dog could enter the room behind and go out onto the balcony at will, all of which would have stopped the dog from trying to get off the balcony and down to Jenny, quite possibly. If the door to the room behind the balcony was closed, it would prevent the dog from entering the main body of the house and would have allowed whoever was in there to conduct their activities uninterrupted. All speculation, of course

 

[laserdisc10]

I've been looking around for 'self-impalement', also for movies about self-impalement' and 'suicide by self-impalement'

Wanted to see how common it is. And wanted to see if there were movies or video-games featuring self-impalement that could have seeded ideas in someone's mind

At the moment I'm too chicken to click on many of the links for fear of what I might end up in

But I found this:

I Am a Suicide Survivor. I tried to jump on a sharp tree stump in order to impale myself. That would have been an ironic death for me because one of my symptoms of stress is an imaginary wooden spear impales me and I can feel the pain. I am no longer suicidal after lots of therapy but I'm still suffering from depression, anxiety and a whole basket of mental illness. Thanks for reading

Someone asks:

'What are you suffering from?'

And the original poster replies:

Major Depressive Disorder anxiety taking the form of that impaling thing and also de-realisation. De-realisation is what's putting the most stress on me

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-A-Suicide-Survivor/3178134


It's a depressing task, running searches for impalement. Disturbingly, there are several bands (music - sort of) with 'impalement' in their names

 

[Ausgirl]

I was probably friends with those bands, if they're from the 90's.

Hey, that collection of quotes you posted, laser, regarding the prints made me squint a bit - the wording is very different between "no prints" and "no prints useful for comparison" isn't it -- what an odd thing to say, if there were no prints at all. But Kraatz seems pretty up front to me, so you're right, we should probably go from "no fingerprints" - no-one printed the knife, though, and Kraatz makes it pretty clear he was not pleased about this happening - it was part of his job and he says if he was 'giving the orders' it would have been done.

Good on you for finding that example, they're not easy to locate. I wonder how impulsive that was, though - ie, a sudden urge acted on in the moment, compared to the meticulous wrapping of the knife handle in Jenny's case.

 

[Ausgirl]

I did find this example, though, of self-impalement being carefully planned:

An 80-year-old man with pancreatic adenocarcinoma and depression was found with his head impaled on a bolt that had been screwed into a hole that had been drilled in the floor of a shed at his home address. Once the bolt was in place the decedent had winched a heavy weight above it, using a pulley that he had attached to the metal roof frame, and the front fork of a bicycle frame. The latter had been bolted to a nearby work bench as a winching device. After the weight had been positioned, he had placed his head over the bolt and cut the rope with a kitchen knife. The impact of the falling weight had forced his head onto the bolt with penetration of the cranial cavity. The complexity of the design of the suicide apparatus is exceedingly rare in our experience and the time taken to set up the device indicated that there had been a considerable degree of premeditation. The finding of complex apparatus at a death scene may provide useful information in ascertaining the manner of death and also in providing some indication as to the decedent's level of determination to succeed.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225295710_Head_impalement_-_An_unusual_form_of_suicide

I think part in bold is what helps to negate Jenny's death as a suicide - if she was bent on success, she would not be tying a sheet around her head, as that significantly reduces her chances.