GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[Cyansea]

It's a pretty personally emotive and evocative situation that's for sure. This what I write is in line as being rhetoric rather than meant as being anything else. When it comes to the crunch, I always feel it's the 'spirtual' memory one has within their heart that is the true memorial. As I see it, you don't need a physical place nor a physical structure (all which can easily be destroyed and taken away) to pay homage.

Those crosses you see from road accidents are only temporary and eventually they disappear and new ones take their place. None of them are made of any permanent type materials nor ever remain ad infinatum. When we pass them, most people think of their own lives and how fragile life can be, rather than actually know or think about the person who was actually killed in that spot.

None of us really know (do we?) what Jill's family thought of having a shrine, a monument placed in the spot her body was found. A monument in a spot that is not a choice Jill or any of her family and friends have chosen, but a spot chosen for Jill by an uncaring ruthless murderer.

Maybe some locals don't want a constant day after day reminder of a spot where a murder victim's body was dumped. That's all you can call it, dumped by a killer. That would be pretty unnerving to some people I would think. If Jill had been found in someone's front garden, would there be this issue about a monument being put in place in the spot her body was found even if it was done in loving memory and with good intent?

Some places do eventually get developed and can become built up, roads get redeveloped and new ones built.... people move on. In 20 years time who are the ones who place the flowers on monuments and on graves? Maybe family and friends and the odd interested bystander might on occassion, but people eventually move on as years go by and the acuteness of the memory fades. Will people still be stopping to put up flowers and rearrage them in 20 years time where Allison' Baden Clay was found?

You only need to look at the poster and guest activity in these threads to see how quickly people move on. I can almost guarantee, that if I were to mention Jill's name (or Allison's) to the average person in the street where I live, most would have long forgotten their names or the exact crime unless first given some reminder of what happened.

Who remembers and pays homage to 9 year old Ebony Simpson, abducted and murdered in 1992, who thinks of the family who were murdered in their own home in 2001 by their own son and brother Sef Gonzales.

How about in 1993, the sexual assaults and axe murders of Karen MacKenzie 31, and her three children, Daniel 16, Amara, 7 and Katrina 5, at their remote rural property in Western Australia.



Greenough Family Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do agree with your points BB and very well written, it is a very emotive issue. People's outpouring of emotions -v- logic. I guess looking at it, it couldn't be a long term thing. They can still lay flowers if they feel the need to so that's good.

 

[fruity]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...er-with-graffiti/story-e6frf7kx-1226511964557

Hosier Lane street art tribute to Jill Meagher painted over with graffiti.

LORD Mayor Robert Doyle says he had hoped part of a street art tribute to murdered Melbourne woman Jill Meagher would be kept as a permanent memorial.

Graffiti artists painted over the memorial over the past few days.

The 20m mural, created by a mystery artist in late September, stretched along the Forum Theatre wall in Hosier Lane.

"Obviously the original message was a heartfelt memorial to Jill Meagher," Cr Doyle said.

"The street art community painted the original message and have now painted over it.

"Personally I would have preferred just the name Jill to remain as a more permanent gesture but that is obviously no longer possible."
The tribute has been completely covered, with a splash of pink paint at the Flinders St end the only reminder of the original graffiti.

Full story at link.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

MEAGHER (nee McKeon). - Gillian. Much loved and adored wife of Tom, cherished daughter to George and Edith and beloved sister of Michael. Granddaughter to Helen, daughter-in-law of Kevin and Joan and sister-in-law of Katrina. Forever in our hearts and forever missed.

http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/obituaries/

 

[FeistyKel]

I went passed the spot in Sth Gisborne the other day, it's local to me. Whilst the granite memorial is gone, there were still flowers, and there is a wooden RIP type sign nailed to a tree there, so... Not sure much was achieved.

I also agree wholeheartedly with Doc Watsons post about releasing details etc. Great post.

 

[Paul mcGovern]

Its nothing more than voyeurism FeistyKel...no useful purpose is served

 

[BreakingNews]

It's a pretty personally emotive and evocative situation that's for sure. This what I write is in line as being rhetoric rather than meant as being anything else. When it comes to the crunch, I always feel it's the 'spirtual' memory one has within their heart that is the true memorial. As I see it, you don't need a physical place nor a physical structure (all which can easily be destroyed and taken away) to pay homage.

Those crosses you see from road accidents are only temporary and eventually they disappear and new ones take their place. None of them are made of any permanent type materials nor ever remain ad infinatum. When we pass them, most people think of their own lives and how fragile life can be, rather than actually know or think about the person who was actually killed in that spot.

None of us really know (do we?) what Jill's family thought of having a shrine, a monument placed in the spot her body was found. A monument in a spot that is not a choice Jill or any of her family and friends have chosen, but a spot chosen for Jill by an uncaring ruthless murderer.

Maybe some locals don't want a constant day after day reminder of a spot where a murder victim's body was dumped. That's all you can call it, dumped by a killer. That would be pretty unnerving to some people I would think. If Jill had been found in someone's front garden, would there be this issue about a monument being put in place in the spot her body was found even if it was done in loving memory and with good intent?

Some places do eventually get developed and can become built up, roads get redeveloped and new ones built.... people move on. In 20 years time who are the ones who place the flowers on monuments and on graves? Maybe family and friends and the odd interested bystander might on occassion, but people eventually move on as years go by and the acuteness of the memory fades. Will people still be stopping to put up flowers and rearrage them in 20 years time where Allison' Baden Clay was found?

You only need to look at the poster and guest activity in these threads to see how quickly people move on. I can almost guarantee, that if I were to mention Jill's name (or Allison's) to the average person in the street where I live, most would have long forgotten their names or the exact crime unless first given some reminder of what happened.

Who remembers and pays homage to 9 year old Ebony Simpson, abducted and murdered in 1992, who thinks of the family who were murdered in their own home in 2001 by their own son and brother Sef Gonzales.

How about in 1993, the sexual assaults and axe murders of Karen MacKenzie 31, and her three children, Daniel 16, Amara, 7 and Katrina 5, at their remote rural property in Western Australia.



Greenough Family Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry Blue Bottle, but I have to disagree somewhat. Spiritual memory might be your thing, but may not be for everyone. And some roadside 'memorials' are more that just temporary. I drive past a car accident victim's permanent roadside memorial every day. And you might be ignoring the historians among us who actually want to see and read about a significant spot. There is a huge difference between voyeurism and genuine outpouring of grief and remembrance.

In Allison Baden-Clay's case, she has 3 young daughters who lived/live in a small community and have many, many friends. I cannot imagine Allison's daughter's friends ignoring the sunflowery shrine at the bridge where her body was found.

 

[BreakingNews]

Its nothing more than voyeurism FeistyKel...no useful purpose is served

Hi Paul. I believe you are thinking only of your own experience/involvement in the usefulness and purpose of such memorials. Voyeurism is a word you seem to use a lot; however I am not sure that is what the issue is about. It seems to me to be more about the public's need to release grief.

 

[Paul mcGovern]

I should have been more specific...I was referring to releasing the details of crimes...injuries etc...

 

[DrWatson]

I should have been more specific...I was referring to releasing the details of crimes...injuries etc...

Nope - I disagree. Releasing details of crimes is not just voyeurism. That may be your opinion on the matter, and may be due to sensitivity on behalf of the families of the victims - but they already KNOW the details. They will also hear them in court - many times.

Releasing details of crimes, as I posted before, can act as a "reality jolt" to all those people who live in a nicely cocooned world, where everything is, or should be, safe as houses. Nothing ever happens to them or anyone close to them. That would be the vast majority of people, I'd think.

But being made aware of just how nasty, depraved, and vicious the offenders can be, by releasing details of what they did, can open their eyes to the REAL world, and may, in turn, just save some of them from similar fates. If it makes some people a bit "paranoid" about walking along dark streets in seedy parts of town on their own - then that could be a good thing.

Not ideal in terms of their own personal RIGHTS, maybe, but in terms of their own personal safety it may be the best bit of fear they get. After all, fear is a protective "device". And if releasing the awful truth about what can happen to the victims can make many people stop and think before risking their own lives.

You may call it voyeurism, I would call it eye-opening.

 

[alioop]

Different people have different opinions, that's our human nature and it is a good thing. What is important is the discussion and the opportunities that open at ws level, community level and the law makers level. If people can be better educated to protect themselves as a result of having their eyes opened to the reality of potential danger then that is a good thing.

 

[Ausgirl]

You only need to look at the poster and guest activity in these threads to see how quickly people move on.

Well. I dunno about anyone else..

But I quit posting here for the moment, as I felt I had little in the way of useful things to say. Due to the laws here, we're effectively gagged from discussing the case in any depth or manner that -could- prove useful to it. That's okay, of course, it's the law and all in aid of making sure Jill's murderer gets put away.

But don't assume silence = lack of interest or caring for everyone, please. Folks might just be feeling it's hard to talk about anything, having already expressed opinions/points of view here.

This is just a website, when it comes to it, and I don't think participation here can be any kind of barometer for how interested people are. Jill's murder happened not far from where I live - it's actually on my mind a lot. 'Moving on' will take time, and start only when the monster who killed her is put away for life, with no parole.

 

[bearbear]

i also believe the public have the right to hear the details of all cases, we dont want to live in a nanny state type of society where everything is censored. and we are "protected".
we all have the right to judge for ourselves and choose what we read or view. knowledge is power, and knowing the full circumstances of a crime may save someones life.

 

[MelbourneSleuth]

But don't assume silence = lack of interest or caring for everyone, please. Folks might just be feeling it's hard to talk about anything, having already expressed opinions/points of view here.

This is just a website, when it comes to it, and I don't think participation here can be any kind of barometer for how interested people are. Jill's murder happened not far from where I live - it's actually on my mind a lot. 'Moving on' will take time, and start only when the monster who killed her is put away for life, with no parole.

I concur Ausgirl! I am also local to that area also, I see changes in saftey behaviours amongst my friends, other women and some men, have changed.
In that way, I believe Jill's case made us all a little more saftey conscious, and that is a good thing!

RIP Jill

 

[Paul mcGovern]

i also believe the public have the right to hear the details of all cases, we dont want to live in a nanny state type of society where everything is censored. and we are "protected".
we all have the right to judge for ourselves and choose what we read or view. knowledge is power, and knowing the full circumstances of a crime may save someones life.

I do find that people with a similar view change their attitude when its someone close to them though...would you like to see your loved ones pain,fear and suffering splashed across the pages of a newspaper for all to see?

 

[bearbear]

i totally understand your point of view, and realise it would be painful to see a loved ones details of their last moments in the media, humans generally being compassionate, we feel the need to protect, but the families will already know what happened, its part of their grieving and healing to know, and they can cloose not to read about it again. difficult though, if there are younger children left behind, who have to hear about it at school etc. and hard to censor what they read or hear, so hopefully a child old enough to understand could be told some facts in a gentle way, its hard to imagine. better we know the truth rather than gossip which can cause grieving families a lot of distress.
if a loved one died, i would hope other people knowing what had happened may save anothers life, i would be too grief striken to read the paper or watch tv.
as an example of positive changes through factual uncensored information. this year there have been some shocking videos of animal export and farming cruelty in the media, horrific footage, most people didnt know, and these images have shocked a lot of people into making positive changes in their lives, where they shop, what they eat etc, its very painful to see and hear but people need information to make intelligent informed choices.

sorry for my rant, but i like to know all the facts about everything im interested in.

I do find that people with a similar view change their attitude when its someone close to them though...would you like to see your loved ones pain,fear and suffering splashed across the pages of a newspaper for all to see?

 

[DrWatson]

there have been some shocking videos of animal export and farming cruelty in the media, horrific footage, most people didnt know, and these images have shocked a lot of people into making positive changes in their lives

Very good example. Most people have not even given a thought as to where the lamb roast or the T-Bone steak comes from. They "know", but it's not real. They can ignore it - pretend it just appears from the butcher fairy.

And yes, I know that the animals don't have families who are going to read the papers, watch TV, etc. But the principle is the same.

Releasing details of crimes of violence including rape will perhaps move the crime from the abstract in many peoples' minds to the real. And I think that's a good thing.

 

[marlywings]

Sorry Blue Bottle, but I have to disagree somewhat. Spiritual memory might be your thing, but may not be for everyone. And some roadside 'memorials' are more that just temporary. I drive past a car accident victim's permanent roadside memorial every day. And you might be ignoring the historians among us who actually want to see and read about a significant spot. There is a huge difference between voyeurism and genuine outpouring of grief and remembrance.

In Allison Baden-Clay's case, she has 3 young daughters who lived/live in a small community and have many, many friends. I cannot imagine Allison's daughter's friends ignoring the sunflowery shrine at the bridge where her body was found.

Interestingly there's a recent case in US in which the torso of a murdered 10yr old girl was dumped in a field. People started making that area into a shrine/memorial until authorities put up a sign asking them not to leave items there...at the request of the girl's family.

In Jill's case, her family was consulted about the memorial stone.

Before the plaque was removed, Mr Wilson said the council was "seeking to fully understand the wishes of the family regarding this site and will act accordingly".

http://www.meltonweekly.com.au/stor...emorial-flowering-gum-a-tribute-idea/?cs=1224

The above, in my opinion, is how it should be...entirely left up to the victim's family to make those types of decisions.

 

[marlywings]

Very good example. Most people have not even given a thought as to where the lamb roast or the T-Bone steak comes from. They "know", but it's not real. They can ignore it - pretend it just appears from the butcher fairy.

And yes, I know that the animals don't have families who are going to read the papers, watch TV, etc. But the principle is the same.

Releasing details of crimes of violence including rape will perhaps move the crime from the abstract in many peoples' minds to the real. And I think that's a good thing.

But will these "positive changes" as bearbear has mentioned, be long term or short term??. I thought about all the graphic info/shock advertising Aus has had over the years...anti smoking, speed kills, drink driving etc etc. Has all this type of info albeit via advertising really made any outstanding impact or difference on society??

What further details does anyone want or need to read, apart from the fact Jill was raped, murdered & her body dumped?? Aren't those three things alone enough to make people stop & think about their own personal safety??

This is of course all my opinion, however I'd like to think there should be far more consideration given to the victim's families in these types of cases. They should be given the choice as to whether or not all the graphic details are released & not just because some folks may be interested to hear or read about it. After all is said & done, it is the victim's families lives which are affected forever by these horrific crimes.

 

[Paul mcGovern]

Great post Marly...for those of us not directly connected we read the details of the crime and are shocked etc...then we think about what to have for dinner...for the family, its 24/7...

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I do find that people with a similar view change their attitude when its someone close to them though...would you like to see your loved ones pain,fear and suffering splashed across the pages of a newspaper for all to see?

I think that a lot of the public crave details of these crimes because they need to know everything, now, and see it as a right to do so. Social media has made news available as it happens almost. Smart phones and tablets allow access to it anywhere, anytime, no need to go home and boot up the PC or wait for the nightly TV news bulletin.

If releasing the most horrific details of crimes made one person safer it would be a good thing. The changed behaviour of some locals around Brunswick is probably due more to the huge media coverage and cctv which 'personalised' this crime, than what was done to Jill. Not saying that people taking more care of their personal safety isn't positive, but I don't agree that you need to know more than is already known for instance, about how JM died to pay attention to possible risky behaviour.

There have been horrific and degrading crimes against innocent women being reported for years but so far it doesn't seem to have stopped young women especially going out on the town, filling themselves with grog and whatever and then staggering home at all hours, so vulnerable. As our Mod has rightly commented, they still think ' it won't happen to me'.

IMHO many of those who can't wait for the trial to get all the details are the same ones who delay us on the road when there is an accident or incident by their rubber-necking when they pass the scene.

:twocents: