GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[aust amateur slueth]

I think that a lot of the public crave details of these crimes because they need to know everything, now, and see it as a right to do so. Social media has made news available as it happens almost. Smart phones and tablets allow access to it anywhere, anytime, no need to go home and boot up the PC or wait for the nightly TV news bulletin.

If releasing the most horrific details of crimes made one person safer it would be a good thing. The changed behaviour of some locals around Brunswick is probably due more to the huge media coverage and cctv which 'personalised' this crime, than what was done to Jill. Not saying that people taking more care of their personal safety isn't positive, but I don't agree that you need to know more than is already known for instance, about how JM died to pay attention to possible risky behaviour.

There have been horrific and degrading crimes against innocent women being reported for years but so far it doesn't seem to have stopped young women especially going out on the town, filling themselves with grog and whatever and then staggering home at all hours, so vulnerable. As our Mod has rightly commented, they still think ' it won't happen to me'.

IMHO many of those who can't wait for the trial to get all the details are the same ones who delay us on the road when there is an accident or incident by their rubber-necking when they pass the scene.

:twocents:

I don't think having the intimate details makes it any more real, I do think that releasing those sort of details could be a bad move (think sickos and their response), those that are going to be scared enough to take more personal responsibility for their actions are going to regardless of what details are release, and some that are scared witless are still going to have to take risks because of their situation.

Many years ago I used to finish work at midnight and caught the last train home at night, look up Belgrave Victoria Australia, you'll see that the station is the end of the line, you need to walk up a long ramp and through a laneway to get to the main street. Back then we didn't have mobile phones, so it was public phone and wait for a taxi, then it was a taxi ride through the forest to Kallista and dropped at the bottom of an extremely steep driveway. I was terrified every single night, but I needed my job so I had to take the risk.

we can be aware, but we can't stop living because of fear.

 

[alioop]

While I was driving today, an add came on the radio for White Ribbon Day and it was talking about practical ways men can stop violence against women. I looked it up when I got home and found out that White Ribbon Day (November 25) is the day declared by the United Nations General Assembly as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. It was started in Canada and has spread around the world.

In Australia, it is a male led campaign and it is asking men to make an online pledge to never be violent towards women or never be silent about another's man's violence towards women.

It is gathering big support and a lot of male celebrities are making the pledge.

http://www.whiteribbon.org.au

I am going to post this on Allison Baden Clay's site too.
__________________

 

[J-Diggety]

Very good example. Most people have not even given a thought as to where the lamb roast or the T-Bone steak comes from. They "know", but it's not real. They can ignore it - pretend it just appears from the butcher fairy.

And yes, I know that the animals don't have families who are going to read the papers, watch TV, etc. But the principle is the same.

Releasing details of crimes of violence including rape will perhaps move the crime from the abstract in many peoples' minds to the real. And I think that's a good thing.

so you would be happy for potentially horrific details of a crime against a loved one or close friend of yours would be acceptable?

Humans are not sheep or cattle Doc:what:

 

[Fuskier]

Very good example... <respectfully snipped> ...
Releasing details of crimes of violence including rape will perhaps move the crime from the abstract in many peoples' minds to the real. And I think that's a good thing.

For example, the case in Adelaide where the young man murdered 3 members in one family, although SAPOL had overwhelming evidence, a Suppression Order prevented the public from learning about the nature of the crime for over a year. Once he pleaded GUILTY (as allegedly advised by his Legal team) the Judges's sentancing statement provided the details of the truely gruesome nature of this young man's crime, and detailed his sustained attack against each family member especially the daughter who was the object of his obsession. It was a wake up call for many that someone so young, ostensibly without any prior indicators, could commit such a gruesome crime. IMO the details highlighted the degree of pathology present. We need to educate ourselves about these incidents to be fully informed, to call for changes in the law, sentancing, parole and to contribute our opinions towards maintaining civil society. Our personal safety and the safety of our family, friends and community are important to protect. To be able to participate we need to be fully informed. My opinion only.

 

[catswhiskers]

Nope ... I have thought about this a lot since joining this site, and if I was ever the victim of a violent crime which resulted in my murder - there is no way I would want every gruesome detail to be indelibly imprinted in the memories of my children. Or my dear mum and other family and friends. I believe murder victims deserve some dignity after death - not to be reduced to corpses with every horrific injury described and discussed in the daily news. If the public isn't outraged enough by general info giving the gist of how some poor soul has been murdered, it really is a sad indictment of our society.

My two bobs worth! :moo:

 

[DrWatson]

so you would be happy for potentially horrific details of a crime against a loved one or close friend of yours would be acceptable?

Humans are not sheep or cattle Doc:what:

Sorry for the delay in replying - I wasn't ignoring you

In answer - yes, I would. If I thought that releasing the details MAY just help make some other people more aware, and deter them from putting themselves in harm's way by realizing how the real world works. I would already know the details, as do the families of the victims in most cases. If some good could come out of releasing those details, it wouldn't alter my own reaction to the details.

And as for the comment about sheep or cattle - it hardly merits a reply, but of course the PRINCIPLE is the same. And of course I'm not implying that sheep or cattle are humans or vice versa - obviously... :banghead:

 

[alioop]

Unlike Allison Baden-Clay's case where we have lots of unanswered questions about her murder, I feel in Jill's case, if we assume the police arrested the right man, that there is not much else to sleuth. We know who did it, how he did it (dragged her off the street and raped and murdered her in the laneway off Hope Street then moved her by car to Gisborne) and why he did it ( random and opportunistic).

Poor Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time and a sexual predator took advantage of that.

Other than the horrible details which I don't want to know, all there is left to talk about whilst the legal processes happen is what we have been discussing on this forum. The wider issues of safety and how best to educate people especially women to protect themselves against harm both from people they know and strangers.

So whilst there are differing opinions here, it is all good as it is the discussion and the throwing around of different ideas that make us all think about these issues.

 

[bearbear]

yes, i agree. im also happy with the information we have of jills murder, i dont think any of us are screaming out for sensationalist intimate, gory details of jills death, just the facts, the how, why, when where and by whom, which we have. although i would still like to know what it was journalists were seemingly traumatised by after their initial police briefing?
i hope we also learn why and how poor allison bc was murdered. i think its important to know, as unpleasant as it is, it helps to come to terms with such a horrible act, we can internalise it all and reassure ourselves i guess.
its good to be able to hear everybody voice their different opinions.

Unlike Allison Baden-Clay's case where we have lots of unanswered questions about her murder, I feel in Jill's case, if we assume the police arrested the right man, that there is not much else to sleuth. We know who did it, how he did it (dragged her off the street and raped and murdered her in the laneway off Hope Street then moved her by car to Gisborne) and why he did it ( random and opportunistic).

Poor Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time and a sexual predator took advantage of that.

Other than the horrible details which I don't want to know, all there is left to talk about whilst the legal processes happen is what we have been discussing on this forum. The wider issues of safety and how best to educate people especially women to protect themselves against harm both from people they know and strangers.

So whilst there are differing opinions here, it is all good as it is the discussion and the throwing around of different ideas that make us all think about these issues.

 

[J-Diggety]

Sorry for the delay in replying - I wasn't ignoring you

In answer - yes, I would. If I thought that releasing the details MAY just help make some other people more aware, and deter them from putting themselves in harm's way by realizing how the real world works. I would already know the details, as do the families of the victims in most cases. If some good could come out of releasing those details, it wouldn't alter my own reaction to the details.

And as for the comment about sheep or cattle - it hardly merits a reply, but of course the PRINCIPLE is the same. And of course I'm not implying that sheep or cattle are humans or vice versa - obviously... :banghead:

All good Doc, I knwo you werent ignoring me.

I think rape, attack and murder is urely enough information for people to become more aware. If not, we ar ein dark times already.

I realise you spoke of the poinciple, but youre still bring the dressing of a beast into a discussion on a horrific event.

Dont bang your head against the wall, youll hurt yourself

 

[DrWatson]

All good Doc, I knwo you werent ignoring me.

I think rape, attack and murder is urely enough information for people to become more aware. If not, we ar ein dark times already.

I realise you spoke of the poinciple, but youre still bring the dressing of a beast into a discussion on a horrific event.

Dont bang your head against the wall, youll hurt yourself

Morning J-D

When you say that "rape, attack and murder are surely enough information for people" - I think that is where we differ. My own opinion is that to a lot of people, those are just words and abstract concepts. Yes, they "know" what they mean, but most people have no idea as to the reality of the crimes, what happens, the brutality, the depravity, etc. Shocking some of those people into the realization that those words are not just words or concepts is where the benefit comes in, IMHO.

I know we're not allowed to discuss a certain article in a certain magazine that came out recently, but the point I'd make without discussing the article is that I know several people who read that, and who were shocked to the core - and I mean REALLY emotionally shocked - to read some of those details.

One in particular, an avid reader of murder mystery books (a good friend of my lovely wife) was REALLY shaken up - and it was the details that did it. She was quite blase previously about walking home - she lives on a dark, quiet street a couple of blocks away from the main cafe area of West End here in Brisbane. Now she has changed her outlook and will either get a friend to accompany her or will get a lift with friends. Her behaviour has been modified purely on the basis of reading those details - and she has reduced her risk by doing so.

If that effect were to be more widespread, as I suspect it would, even in the short term before people forget and get blase again, then maybe some good comes out of releasing those details. They can be censored somewhat and modified to take some of the edge off, but I think people need to know that "rape, murder, assault" etc are not just words or intangible concepts.

OK - I do think we've probably pushed this point more than enough. We all have different opinions on it. I would be happy if some good could come out of releasing details of an attack on someone close to me, but others on here think the opposite. That's fine - opinions will always differ in a group situation like a forum. Perhaps we should move away from this topic now?

 

[J-Diggety]

Morning J-D

When you say that "rape, attack and murder are surely enough information for people" - I think that is where we differ. My own opinion is that to a lot of people, those are just words and abstract concepts. Yes, they "know" what they mean, but most people have no idea as to the reality of the crimes, what happens, the brutality, the depravity, etc. Shocking some of those people into the realization that those words are not just words or concepts is where the benefit comes in, IMHO.

I know we're not allowed to discuss a certain article in a certain magazine that came out recently, but the point I'd make without discussing the article is that I know several people who read that, and who were shocked to the core - and I mean REALLY emotionally shocked - to read some of those details.

One in particular, an avid reader of murder mystery books (a good friend of my lovely wife) was REALLY shaken up - and it was the details that did it. She was quite blase previously about walking home - she lives on a dark, quiet street a couple of blocks away from the main cafe area of West End here in Brisbane. Now she has changed her outlook and will either get a friend to accompany her or will get a lift with friends. Her behaviour has been modified purely on the basis of reading those details - and she has reduced her risk by doing so.

If that effect were to be more widespread, as I suspect it would, even in the short term before people forget and get blase again, then maybe some good comes out of releasing those details. They can be censored somewhat and modified to take some of the edge off, but I think people need to know that "rape, murder, assault" etc are not just words or intangible concepts.

OK - I do think we've probably pushed this point more than enough. We all have different opinions on it. I would be happy if some good could come out of releasing details of an attack on someone close to me, but others on here think the opposite. That's fine - opinions will always differ in a group situation like a forum. Perhaps we should move away from this topic now?

Fair enough Doc, happy to step aside

Good to chat

 

[possumheart]

A FREE app, inspired by the death of Jill Meagher, that uses GPS technology to report sexual assaults will be up and running within months, according to the state's leading body against abuse.
The Centre Against Sexual Assault expects the app will help lower barriers for assaulted women who do not want to report incidents.
The head of the south-east branch of CASA, Carolyn Worth, said the agency was developing the app - the first of its kind in Australia - to record patterns of crime against women. The idea for the app came after the death of 29-year-old Irish national Jillian Meagher in September.
BBM

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/digital-li...st-assaults-20121113-29aj5.html#ixzz2C9KgUcyChttp://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/smartphone-apps/app-new-weapon-against-assaults-20121113-29aj5.html

 

[bearbear]

i am the one who used the example of shocking animal cruelty footage recently shown on tv, purely as an example of honest reporting by the media of facts we all need to see, so we can make changes and grow to be more humane humans!
im sorry if it offended anyone and i wasnt comparing it to rape and murder, just as an example of being told the brutal truth. its a shame that magazine article was censored in victoria and seems ridiculous in my opinion. im so pleased people reading it have been shocked into being more careful.
i think people just close off to things that happen and think they are safe but often in doing so they become numb to everything around them.
agree i/we have probably overtalked this so ill sign off now.

 

[Cyansea]

Nope - I disagree. Releasing details of crimes is not just voyeurism. That may be your opinion on the matter, and may be due to sensitivity on behalf of the families of the victims - but they already KNOW the details. They will also hear them in court - many times.

Releasing details of crimes, as I posted before, can act as a "reality jolt" to all those people who live in a nicely cocooned world, where everything is, or should be, safe as houses. Nothing ever happens to them or anyone close to them. That would be the vast majority of people, I'd think.

But being made aware of just how nasty, depraved, and vicious the offenders can be, by releasing details of what they did, can open their eyes to the REAL world, and may, in turn, just save some of them from similar fates. If it makes some people a bit "paranoid" about walking along dark streets in seedy parts of town on their own - then that could be a good thing.

Not ideal in terms of their own personal RIGHTS, maybe, but in terms of their own personal safety it may be the best bit of fear they get. After all, fear is a protective "device". And if releasing the awful truth about what can happen to the victims can make many people stop and think before risking their own lives.

You may call it voyeurism, I would call it eye-opening.

:goodpost:



I agree. I know there are differing opinions and that's fine. I think there should be 'freedom of information' for those who want to know. <modsnip>Of course this is all imo, in case I haven't said it enough times

 

[aussiegran]

Hello people, I was hoping someone might be able to start a new thread for me? I have no idea how and haven't got the time right now to learn. But I have been noticing my local police (Hunter Valley NSW) requesting any info on 23-year-old Leisl Smith who is missing from the Central Coast. Leisl's car was found abandoned at Tuggerah railway station a week after her disappearance. Thanks guys.

 

[marlywings]

Hello people, I was hoping someone might be able to start a new thread for me? I have no idea how and haven't got the time right now to learn. But I have been noticing my local police (Hunter Valley NSW) requesting any info on 23-year-old Leisl Smith who is missing from the Central Coast. Leisl's car was found abandoned at Tuggerah railway station a week after her disappearance. Thanks guys.

Hi aussiegran ...thanks for the info. I've just opened a thread. If you click on the following link it will take you directly to it.

Australia Australia-Leisl Smith, 23-Central Coast, August 19,2012 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[FeistyKel]

Its nothing more than voyeurism FeistyKel...no useful purpose is served

I respectfully disagree

 

[aussiegran]

Thank you Marlywings.

 

[they'll get you]

Its nothing more than voyeurism FeistyKel...no useful purpose is served

Voyeurism? This site is Webslueths. It's a site where concerned people get together to discuss, care, share and possibly help solve. TO THE VERY END.
Since being on Webslueths my rose-coloured glasses have been knocked off my face! Possibly, because of us, Allison Baden Clay has NOT been forgotten and Jill will NOT be forgotten until justice has been done. Loyalty to our sisters perhaps? I've learned there are vicious preditors with mental problems, women who thought they were happily married with 3 children have been murdered, Jill inocently walking home has lost her life. We've nearly learnt who, now hopefully we'll learn how and why. Why? Average people will never REALLY understand.
Awareness of how and why some preditors (can't say humans) do these things. I'm not a voyeur & if I'm to know under what circumstances these precious souls died I may have closure but I'm sure I'll never understand why.

Paul, under what circumstances did you meet Garry Lynch and why did you sit in on the court case? Just wondering but I'd never call you a voyeur. Why did Garry Lynch release that photo of his daughter in the paddock & write the detailed books. I'm sure it wasn't for the voyeurs out there....he had a good reason, maybe to shock others that these things happen & OMG I was shocked, aware and no rose-coloured glasses.

 

[they'll get you]

Thinking the impetus to move it was more likely the whingeing locals, then the family may have said 'well send it over to us in Perth then'.

Yep that'd do it. The family have it so it did mean a lot to them.