we all assumed it was his absent-minded parole officer.
GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5
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we all assumed it was his absent-minded parole officer.
Paulie, that’s a well-thought out post there. I don’t have access to the cctv footage on this computer, but from google maps I can’t seem to decide on the location of the shop from where it shows AB running after Jill, is it just a couple of doors south of Sparta Place? I see your point about them both seeming to turn left into Sparta Place, but for me it’s inconclusive, although plausible.
Regarding the ‘she should not have been up this far’ comment, I seem to remember this was a pizza shop owner/worker, but which pizza shop I don’t know.
We should also be weary of comparing times between different cctv cameras for establishing a timeline of events because they really can’t be trusted.
In my view I don’t think she knew anything about somebody tailing her when she stopped to talk to those three people. Wouldn’t that have been a relief to her to meet a group while she thinks there’s someone after her? She could then try to have a longer conversation with them or even tell them about it, she seems happy enough to leave them be and walk on by herself. But the Chemist Warehouse is before Victoria St., which seems like a much easier route to get home. I can’t see why she would continue north along Sydney Road instead of taking that route. This is where it gets confusing to me…
If we never hear the full details of what he did to her I would be happy, but I’m still interested to know when he first approached her, how far they walked together, where exactly he pounced, etc. I’m sure the police know this and also have much more cctv than we’ve seen so far.
Regarding the ‘she should not have been up this far’ comment, I seem to remember this was a pizza shop owner/worker, but which pizza shop I don’t know.
We should also be weary of comparing times between different cctv cameras for establishing a timeline of events because they really can’t be trusted.
In my view I don’t think she knew anything about somebody tailing her when she stopped to talk to those three people. Wouldn’t that have been a relief to her to meet a group while she thinks there’s someone after her? She could then try to have a longer conversation with them or even tell them about it, she seems happy enough to leave them be and walk on by herself. But the Chemist Warehouse is before Victoria St., which seems like a much easier route to get home. I can’t see why she would continue north along Sydney Road instead of taking that route. This is where it gets confusing to me…
If we never hear the full details of what he did to her I would be happy, but I’m still interested to know when he first approached her, how far they walked together, where exactly he pounced, etc. I’m sure the police know this and also have much more cctv than we’ve seen so far.
Eireann
go Brách
I'm your neighbour, Ireland
As for time differences between CCTV cameras, remember that some time shots won't be accurate. For example, my workplaces is about 4 minutes out. No one can remember how to fix it so it gets left as it is! However recorded footage will show the wrong time, and not the correct time.
Esquilax. Read:
The afore-referenced footage:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/03/12/19/33/meagher-s-last-moments-caught-on-camera
The labelling on the footage lists that particular footage as being taken at Crust Gourmet Pizzas (455-457 Sydney Road, Brunswick, 3056). A search on Google Maps reveals it as a ‘Cignal’ shop (Brunswick Tobacconist), with yellow columns with blue signs with white-colour Greek font. Google Maps would have to be an old image, and I suppose it is now Crust Gourmet Pizzas and Sparta Place is adjacent to that pizza store.
You are correct that Chemist Warehouse (429 to 433 Sydney Road, Brunswick) is before Victoria Street, thus she did not stop for a cigarette with the three people to foil Bayley’s stalking. That is my error. That cigarette footage is in fact at around 1:34, so a few minutes before Bayley is seen running after her into Sparta Place.
In light of all of this, I have drawn up a list using the 11min, 24secs compilation of cctv footage released by the media. From what I can piece together, we have (in chronological order) multiple points of footage; firstly, of Jill leaving work at the ABC.
Then, footage of her with work colleague:
1.
Walking past (10:58pm, 21/9/2012) TreeTop Toy Shop, 351 Sydney Rd, Brunswick.
2.
arriving (08:59:10) and exiting (11:59:52) The Brunswick Green, 313 Sydney Rd, Brunswick, VIC 3056. This footage is actually pretty poignant, as the time ticks over to after twelve, waving goodbye to 21/09/2012 and thereby ending the last day Jill will remain alive.
There is a considerable gap here of almost a whole hour, during which we don't know what happened- roughly from 12-1am.
3.
Walking past (12:52am, 22/9/2012) Club X - Adult Shops, 323 Sydney Rd, Brunswick.
What is a mystery is how the TreeTop footage can be taken at 10:58pm- during the very time-frame that Jill and work colleagues are meant to have been at The Brunswick Green (roughtly 9-12)- unless, of course, they took a short walk outside and came back in, which seems a bit odd. Although, the timestamp on the TreeTop footage could be wrong.
What is even more noteworthy here is that we are not then shown any footage from Bar Etiquette (408 Sydney Rd, Brunswick), which is where Jill left at 1:30am 22/09/2012, declined work colleague Tom Wright’s offer of a lift home, then proceeded to walk home alone. I am of the understanding that they arrived at Bar Etiquette at 1am and left at closing, 1:30am. I am not sure if Bar Etiquette has camera footage or not- it simply could not, though it is also possible that it is here that Bayley notices her and begins discretely tracking her, which could be why there is no released footage of that venue. It also should be remembered that, at this point, it is roughly under an hour to the attack.
The footage from hereon is of her by herself.
4)
Having left Bar Etiquette and said goodbye to her work colleague, we then have footage of Jill crossing Sydney Road at (1:41am, 22/09/2012- note, the time-stamp on this footage seems to be fast by perhaps 10 mins.) Zagame's Brunswick Hotel (430 Sydney Rd Brunswick VIC 3056); and proceeds northbound. Then,
5)
that puts Jill near (01:34:34 - 01:35:39- this timestamp seems to be accurate) Chemist Warehouse (Brunswick 429 to 433 Sydney Road Brunswick), where we have footage of her speaking to three passers-by asking for a cigarette.
This is all before Victoria Street, which Jill crosses to continue up along Sydney Road to get home. Bayley is likely to have seen her around here somewhere (possibly followed her from Bar Etiquette, which is why footage from there is not released) and he would be tailing her after Victoria Street. For those that do not know, Victoria Street is a busy thoroughfare, so I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Bayley was lurking around here somewhere, looking for people to hassle.
6)
Bayley running after Jill into Sparta Place, adjacent to Crust Gourmet Pizzas (455-457 Sydney Road, Brunswick, 3056)- Jill arrives into Sparta Place at (01:38:05), whereas Bayley arrives at (01:39:02)- 57 seconds later. I believe they interacted at Sparta Place, had a chat, and she then said bye and they parted company. Then,
7)
footage of Bayley tailgating Jill from Sam Mihelakos & Co P/L - Real Estate Agents (477 Sydney Rd Brunswick VIC 3056). The timestamps on this footage are wrong. Jill walks by at (03:22:17), Bayley walks by at (03:22:51)- 34 seconds later. Although the time cannot be trusted, the differences in time can. So the 57 second Sparta Place gap has now narrowed to 34 seconds by the time of the Real Estate agent footage. Then, there is a large gap without footage, suppressed, no doubt (though I do seem to recall the arts supply shop with the terribly poor footage which we were told was Bayley following Jill, but I can’t find that now); and, in chronological order,
8)
We then have the infamous blue-hoodie footage at Duchess Boutique (517 Sydney Road, Brunswick, VIC.). That is the first piece of publicly released footage where we see them acknowledging each other.
(01:39:40)- Bayley walking up Sydney Road.
(01:41:28)- Bayley walking down Sydney Road.
(01:41:32)- Red jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:00)- Black jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:13)- Black bag/jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:22)- Bayley and Jill appear walking up Sydney Road. (1:43:02) Jill appears to take off up Sydney Road.
There is a time of 4m, 17secs between Jill arriving at Sparta Place and then re-appearing in front of Duchess Boutique (assuming respective timestamps are correct). Bear in mind she needs to walk 165m at an inclining gradient, in high heels.
I personally believe there is more footage of their interactions which has not been released, as there is too great a distance travelled, with too many stores along the way, to not have captured them interacting before their interaction at Duchess Boutique. This presumes Bayley approached Jill before Duchess Boutique, and i believe he did at some point along the way. My suspicion is that the Hope Street cameras caught the whole kidnap, while the cameras around Sparta Place caught something more, or immediately thereafter by some nearby cameras they were filmed chatting.
I am not sure when Bayley has noticed her, though it would have been before Sparta Place, as he is clearly following her by that stage, and that is evidently the impression the media is offering to us by this footage:
http://video.heraldsun.com.au/2342165393/Is-this-Jill-being-chased-by-her-accused-killer
That footage is as sinister it gets. No other footage has given me the creeps more than that particular edit of that footage- they’ve zoomed it in and made it look horrible. It’s pure noir, chilling horror.
So it seems like he has noticed her some time before or around Victoria Street. He could even have been following her around from the bars, though I doubt that, he seems to have been trawling the streets for trouble.
The afore-referenced footage:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/03/12/19/33/meagher-s-last-moments-caught-on-camera
The labelling on the footage lists that particular footage as being taken at Crust Gourmet Pizzas (455-457 Sydney Road, Brunswick, 3056). A search on Google Maps reveals it as a ‘Cignal’ shop (Brunswick Tobacconist), with yellow columns with blue signs with white-colour Greek font. Google Maps would have to be an old image, and I suppose it is now Crust Gourmet Pizzas and Sparta Place is adjacent to that pizza store.
You are correct that Chemist Warehouse (429 to 433 Sydney Road, Brunswick) is before Victoria Street, thus she did not stop for a cigarette with the three people to foil Bayley’s stalking. That is my error. That cigarette footage is in fact at around 1:34, so a few minutes before Bayley is seen running after her into Sparta Place.
In light of all of this, I have drawn up a list using the 11min, 24secs compilation of cctv footage released by the media. From what I can piece together, we have (in chronological order) multiple points of footage; firstly, of Jill leaving work at the ABC.
Then, footage of her with work colleague:
1.
Walking past (10:58pm, 21/9/2012) TreeTop Toy Shop, 351 Sydney Rd, Brunswick.
2.
arriving (08:59:10) and exiting (11:59:52) The Brunswick Green, 313 Sydney Rd, Brunswick, VIC 3056. This footage is actually pretty poignant, as the time ticks over to after twelve, waving goodbye to 21/09/2012 and thereby ending the last day Jill will remain alive.
There is a considerable gap here of almost a whole hour, during which we don't know what happened- roughly from 12-1am.
3.
Walking past (12:52am, 22/9/2012) Club X - Adult Shops, 323 Sydney Rd, Brunswick.
What is a mystery is how the TreeTop footage can be taken at 10:58pm- during the very time-frame that Jill and work colleagues are meant to have been at The Brunswick Green (roughtly 9-12)- unless, of course, they took a short walk outside and came back in, which seems a bit odd. Although, the timestamp on the TreeTop footage could be wrong.
What is even more noteworthy here is that we are not then shown any footage from Bar Etiquette (408 Sydney Rd, Brunswick), which is where Jill left at 1:30am 22/09/2012, declined work colleague Tom Wright’s offer of a lift home, then proceeded to walk home alone. I am of the understanding that they arrived at Bar Etiquette at 1am and left at closing, 1:30am. I am not sure if Bar Etiquette has camera footage or not- it simply could not, though it is also possible that it is here that Bayley notices her and begins discretely tracking her, which could be why there is no released footage of that venue. It also should be remembered that, at this point, it is roughly under an hour to the attack.
The footage from hereon is of her by herself.
4)
Having left Bar Etiquette and said goodbye to her work colleague, we then have footage of Jill crossing Sydney Road at (1:41am, 22/09/2012- note, the time-stamp on this footage seems to be fast by perhaps 10 mins.) Zagame's Brunswick Hotel (430 Sydney Rd Brunswick VIC 3056); and proceeds northbound. Then,
5)
that puts Jill near (01:34:34 - 01:35:39- this timestamp seems to be accurate) Chemist Warehouse (Brunswick 429 to 433 Sydney Road Brunswick), where we have footage of her speaking to three passers-by asking for a cigarette.
This is all before Victoria Street, which Jill crosses to continue up along Sydney Road to get home. Bayley is likely to have seen her around here somewhere (possibly followed her from Bar Etiquette, which is why footage from there is not released) and he would be tailing her after Victoria Street. For those that do not know, Victoria Street is a busy thoroughfare, so I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Bayley was lurking around here somewhere, looking for people to hassle.
6)
Bayley running after Jill into Sparta Place, adjacent to Crust Gourmet Pizzas (455-457 Sydney Road, Brunswick, 3056)- Jill arrives into Sparta Place at (01:38:05), whereas Bayley arrives at (01:39:02)- 57 seconds later. I believe they interacted at Sparta Place, had a chat, and she then said bye and they parted company. Then,
7)
footage of Bayley tailgating Jill from Sam Mihelakos & Co P/L - Real Estate Agents (477 Sydney Rd Brunswick VIC 3056). The timestamps on this footage are wrong. Jill walks by at (03:22:17), Bayley walks by at (03:22:51)- 34 seconds later. Although the time cannot be trusted, the differences in time can. So the 57 second Sparta Place gap has now narrowed to 34 seconds by the time of the Real Estate agent footage. Then, there is a large gap without footage, suppressed, no doubt (though I do seem to recall the arts supply shop with the terribly poor footage which we were told was Bayley following Jill, but I can’t find that now); and, in chronological order,
8)
We then have the infamous blue-hoodie footage at Duchess Boutique (517 Sydney Road, Brunswick, VIC.). That is the first piece of publicly released footage where we see them acknowledging each other.
(01:39:40)- Bayley walking up Sydney Road.
(01:41:28)- Bayley walking down Sydney Road.
(01:41:32)- Red jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:00)- Black jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:13)- Black bag/jumper man walking up Sydney Road.
(01:42:22)- Bayley and Jill appear walking up Sydney Road. (1:43:02) Jill appears to take off up Sydney Road.
There is a time of 4m, 17secs between Jill arriving at Sparta Place and then re-appearing in front of Duchess Boutique (assuming respective timestamps are correct). Bear in mind she needs to walk 165m at an inclining gradient, in high heels.
I personally believe there is more footage of their interactions which has not been released, as there is too great a distance travelled, with too many stores along the way, to not have captured them interacting before their interaction at Duchess Boutique. This presumes Bayley approached Jill before Duchess Boutique, and i believe he did at some point along the way. My suspicion is that the Hope Street cameras caught the whole kidnap, while the cameras around Sparta Place caught something more, or immediately thereafter by some nearby cameras they were filmed chatting.
I am not sure when Bayley has noticed her, though it would have been before Sparta Place, as he is clearly following her by that stage, and that is evidently the impression the media is offering to us by this footage:
http://video.heraldsun.com.au/2342165393/Is-this-Jill-being-chased-by-her-accused-killer
That footage is as sinister it gets. No other footage has given me the creeps more than that particular edit of that footage- they’ve zoomed it in and made it look horrible. It’s pure noir, chilling horror.
So it seems like he has noticed her some time before or around Victoria Street. He could even have been following her around from the bars, though I doubt that, he seems to have been trawling the streets for trouble.
For those WS who question how Bayley can plead guilty to rape, but not the other counts of rape or the murder, it may be helpful to know that: The Magistrate found there was enough evidence to commit Bayley to Trial on the 2 counts of rape and the murder.
It’s interesting to contrast the (10:58pm, 21/9/2012) TreeTop Toy Shop, 351 Sydney Rd, Brunswick, footage with the fact that we did not get any footage from Bar Etiquette (408 Sydney Rd, Brunswick), one of the most important venues of the night. The police are obviously withholding it for some reason. I wonder if Bayley attended that venue too. The TreeTop footage is next to useless to us- all it shows is Jill and colleague walking down a road lol.
Where did you find that out, Fuskier?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...values-by-bayley/story-fnat79vb-1226597655513
you just can't make this stuff up. Read this article, it's absolutely ridiculous.
you just can't make this stuff up. Read this article, it's absolutely ridiculous.
The Magistrate makes the decision whether there is enough evidence to proceed to Trial or not. Regardless of Bayley's admission to one rape, The Magistrate made the decision to proceed to Trial for rape and murder on Tuesday 12th March 2013. This has been broadcast widely in MSM and discussed on this Thread. Hope this clarifies.
I see. I assumed you were saying something else. The judge has just ruled at the committal hearing that there is enough evidence for a reasonable person to convict bayley for 1 or more rapes, and for murder/intentional homicide, whatever we call it here. Therefore, the case is being committed to trial.
But what i am not clear about is whether if the jury, for example, decide that bayley did not intentionally murder jill, though only negligently did, then can they convict him of the lesser murder charge (negligent homicide)? Or will he be acquitted, and then a new trial need to be called in order to bring that new charge? In that case, the police should have brought a whole range of charges against him, though that would be odd as the spectrum ranges from negligent (without intention) to intentional (full culpability). I am still a bit puzzled as to how this works. I suspect the police are just staking their claim on murder- they're convinced a jury will see it their way, and that is that. Were there more doubt as to the nature of her death, then they might bring in negligent homicide. Though, even in that case, what if the jury were to be convinced not only of negligence, but of full culpability (mens rea)? Would the jury then acquit the perpetrator and then force a new trial where the charge was upgraded to intentional murder? I am not sure of the flexibility of changing the charges, which i assume cannot be changed throughout the course of the trial, though can only be fixed before the trial begins.
But what i am not clear about is whether if the jury, for example, decide that bayley did not intentionally murder jill, though only negligently did, then can they convict him of the lesser murder charge (negligent homicide)? Or will he be acquitted, and then a new trial need to be called in order to bring that new charge? In that case, the police should have brought a whole range of charges against him, though that would be odd as the spectrum ranges from negligent (without intention) to intentional (full culpability). I am still a bit puzzled as to how this works. I suspect the police are just staking their claim on murder- they're convinced a jury will see it their way, and that is that. Were there more doubt as to the nature of her death, then they might bring in negligent homicide. Though, even in that case, what if the jury were to be convinced not only of negligence, but of full culpability (mens rea)? Would the jury then acquit the perpetrator and then force a new trial where the charge was upgraded to intentional murder? I am not sure of the flexibility of changing the charges, which i assume cannot be changed throughout the course of the trial, though can only be fixed before the trial begins.
Eireann
go Brách
ACCUSED killer Adrian Bayley begged a motorist for a lift after he ran out of petrol on his way home from burying Jill Meagher, according to statements tendered in court.
He noticed the stranger "had grass all over the lower legs of his pants".
Bayley told him he worked at a nearby horse stud farm.
"It explained the grass on his pants," the motorist told police. But he was surprised that the stranger seemed to know little about the area.
After seeing a picture of Bayley following his arrest, the motorist called police.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/motorist-was-praised-for-his-values-by-bayley/story-fnat79vb-1226597655513
(Just noticed this was also posted by Paulie11, sorry)
He noticed the stranger "had grass all over the lower legs of his pants".
Bayley told him he worked at a nearby horse stud farm.
"It explained the grass on his pants," the motorist told police. But he was surprised that the stranger seemed to know little about the area.
After seeing a picture of Bayley following his arrest, the motorist called police.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/motorist-was-praised-for-his-values-by-bayley/story-fnat79vb-1226597655513
(Just noticed this was also posted by Paulie11, sorry
)
Eireann
go Brách
I found this really poignant too.. in his frantic search for wife Jill on the morning of her disappearance, a distraught Tom Meagher sent this private Facebook message to one of her work colleagues (the girl seen leaving the ABC building with Jill)
"Hey Skye - do you have any idea what happened to Jill last night? She never came home."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/what-happened-to-jill-last-night-tom-meaghers-harrowing-message-to-abc-friend/story-fnat79vb-1226597366036
"Hey Skye - do you have any idea what happened to Jill last night? She never came home."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/what-happened-to-jill-last-night-tom-meaghers-harrowing-message-to-abc-friend/story-fnat79vb-1226597366036
No, you can't. Unbelievable. I have no words.
Detective Inspector Potter says there is no CCTV footage from Bar Etiquette.
"We're obviously interested in anything that may have happened at Bar Etiquette and if anyone was there we're desperate to talk to them," he said.
"Somebody knows what's going on here and they should ring us now."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-24/jill-meagher-missing/4276752
I wonder if we should believe this. I am sceptical.
"We're obviously interested in anything that may have happened at Bar Etiquette and if anyone was there we're desperate to talk to them," he said.
"Somebody knows what's going on here and they should ring us now."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-24/jill-meagher-missing/4276752
I wonder if we should believe this. I am sceptical.
EIREANN May we Australians know what "Turris fortis mihi Deus.." means please?
Sleuthilicious
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Fuskier, it's Latin and translates to "God is my strong tower".
Sleuthilicious
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ACCUSED killer Adrian Bayley begged a motorist for a lift after he ran out of petrol on his way home from burying Jill Meagher, according to statements tendered in court.
He noticed the stranger "had grass all over the lower legs of his pants".
Bayley told him he worked at a nearby horse stud farm.
"It explained the grass on his pants," the motorist told police. But he was surprised that the stranger seemed to know little about the area.
After seeing a picture of Bayley following his arrest, the motorist called police.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/motorist-was-praised-for-his-values-by-bayley/story-fnat79vb-1226597655513
(Just noticed this was also posted by Paulie11, sorry
Shows how convincing he can be. This has been part of the problem all along with him. He convinced a parole board to free him, laughed his way through rehabilitation for sex offenders and convinced them he was on track, obviously had convinced his parole officer he was ok, convinced his girlfriend he wasn't a psychotic rapist and murderer, claimed he hated violence against women to his boss etc.
I'm a journo and have done some court reporting...usually the police have a "back up charge" which they revert to if the person is found not guilty of the more serious offence.
So for example if the accused led police on a high speed chase, they would be charged with dangerous driving...they would be also charged with negligent driving in case the dangerous driving charge falls through.
The neg driving charge is then dismissed if they are convicted of the more serious offence.
This is in the local court though so not sure if it's different where a jury is involved.
Hard to tell but the receipt looks like it's from the 20th Sep (Thursday before) so not sure why it's evidence
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