GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[Jmbr]

One thing which hasn’t been mentioned much at all, though I think is absolutely critical, is that he has apparently messaged/phoned his mate right at around the time of the attack- it would be that mate he is seen leaving that pub with. I presume to enlist him in helping out in disposing of Jill. If it is true that he taxi’d it there and back, then what would Bayley be thinking after he had a dead body lying there, maybe in Ovens Street? He hides it in the laneway, but then has to walk home? So catches a taxi back, but then needs to ride back and get rid of the body. This is ****ed up. So he must have called his mate to come down- offering him some baloney on the phone about how some ‘lebos’ jumped him and slashed his car tyres and now he needs a ride home, can he come and get him. imagine his mate said ok, arrives at around 3ish, only to see Bayley springing this story on him of a dead chick he ‘kind of had a fling with, though it got out of control and she died’, ‘so you have to help me, man, cos they’ll think I killed her, and I can’t have that’. That would have been a terrible scenario for his mate. He should have clocked bayley and then bolted to the cop shop. Good story, but this is reality, and in reality, most likely, his mate would have helped him somehow… That is one friend who is thankful who went to bed early and missed those calls. Contrast that guy’s fate with poor Tom who had missed messages of a different kind… too tragic.

Sorry I didn't read your whole post, just about him calling someone. He called for an alibi. He didn't have any help. It was a work mate he called. The police would know if this happened. They don't make stories up, it's not worth the risk. They ruled out an accomplice from the start. That person would have been charged with assisting if so.

 

[Jmbr]

SisterWolf and fruity...

 

[Kitoki]

Thank you all for your insight and posts.

About the witness hearing "Get out of there", I've been really taken by this and I agree with many of the comments on here that this would be a strange thing for someone in danger to say. I think in the cold light of court transcripts it sounds even stranger because it seems like it was just someone saying the words over and over without any sense of the tone. I agree that it could have been a neighbour or a passerby, or a response to AB going for a bag.

I went back to the article (below) and I wonder if the witness actually heard a woman yell "Get out of here", not "there" but misunderstood the accent or just wasn't very familiar with English. I think with swearing, it would be likely to say "Get (the ****) out of here" ("Leave me alone") which would make more sense to me than "Get out of there".

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...new-cctv-footage/story-fnat79vb-1226595991838

Witness Yuxiang He, who lives near the Hope St lane where Ms Meagher was slain, told the court he heard a woman repeatedly yell "Get out of there" in a sharp, loud voice.

He said the woman sounded drunk and may have sworn, but the voice could have been from an argument in another building.

 

[fruity]

<modsnip>
This is a good article. I don't agree with the comment that it's the police who were solely at fault (I put more blame on the shoulders of the parole officers) but the ideas in the article are worth taking note of.

http://jezebel.com/5947964/who-could-have-prevented-the-murder-of-jill-meagher-hint-not-jill-meagher

One of the biggest problems in society is the downplaying of violent acts committed against women. On a victim friendly forum it's really upsetting.

 

[Jmbr]

Quote:
What we need in society is to disband masculinity and machismo, then crimes against women will plummet. Crimes against women are about power and control- and bragging to your mates about it.If you get rid of the bragging to your mates part, then we’ll lose 90% of crimes against women in a jiffy- and all wars, too.

I can't even find where I picked this up from, but enough is enough.

I find this quite offensive to men in general. I know for a fact if my boyfriend, or any of his mates bragged about abusing a woman they'd be dobbed in or sorted out straight away. Please don't generalise all men and assume all are capable of committing crimes against women. I know most are not capable of this, and I feel quite safe when I know a man is walking nearby me when I'm alone or feeling threatened.

 

[Jmbr]

I'm glad it's not just me.

This is a good article. I don't agree with the comment that it's the police who were solely at fault (I put more blame on the shoulders of the parole officers) but the ideas in the article are worth taking note of.

http://jezebel.com/5947964/who-could-have-prevented-the-murder-of-jill-meagher-hint-not-jill-meagher

One of the biggest problems in society is the downplaying of violent acts committed against women. On a victim friendly forum it's really upsetting.

Police were not at fault. I'm so proud of the way they've handled this, and have so much respect for police officers.

Couldn't agree with you more fruity. <modsnip>

 

[Scoobysnack]

I think the "get out of there" comment was from a resident. It's just not something you would say as a female in a dangerous time like that.

I not sure about that, Jill may have not been fully aware of what was happening or kind of in disbelief might be a better way of putting it.
We know she had come from a great night out, she had even stopped to have a friendly chat with three strangers.... she did seem in a very happy mood after having a great night with friends.

I'm not really sure how to write what my thoughts are on this..... but while speaking to one of my girlfriends we both agreed that saying "get out of there!!" to someone touching you inappropriately would be something that we may say.... you would have so many things running through your head, you may not want to aggravate your attacker further by yelling at him.
I'm not sure I hope to god I, or my daughter/family friends ever have to find out.

But I do not find this as an odd thing for Jill to say at all.
I do wish (as we all do ) she screamed and yelled like crazy!

 

[Angeline]

<modsnip> A good bloke? Not a psychopath? Choking game? Huh?

Sorry I haven't read the article, but another thing about crimes against women being downplayed - I wonder if AB was back on the streets because his previous victims were prostitutes? Just another example of "blaming the victim".

Same with the pathetic sentences for men who murder their partners.

 

[Jmbr]

I not sure about that, Jill may have not been fully aware of what was happening or kind of in disbelief might be a better way of putting it.
We know she had come from a great night out, she had even stopped to have a friendly chat with three strangers.... she did seem in a very happy mood after having a great night with friends.

I'm not really sure how to write what my thoughts are on this..... but while speaking to one of my girlfriends we both agreed that saying "get out of there!!" to someone touching you inappropriately would be something that we may say.... you would have so many things running through your head, you may not want to aggravate your attacker further by yelling at him.
I'm not sure I hope to god I, or my daughter/family friends ever have to find out.

But I do not find this as an odd thing for Jill to say at all.
I do wish (as we all do ) she screamed and yelled like crazy!

I know. All the "what ifs".. My boyfriend just reassures me constantly that this tragedy has saved so many lives and hopefully changed laws in the long run... Jill has been a life saver, and I really hope in the long run her amazing family and husband will know that.

I'm always thinking of her, and won't ever forget what she's done. Not just to my safety, but to countless others..

 

[rez125]

I think the 'get out of there' has been muddled due to the listeners broken English IF it was even Jill that said it. I'm still not convinced it was as there has been no mention of an accent by the witness. Jill was only here for a few years wasn't she? In an intense situation her Irish accent would have been thicker than ever - the Irish, I've found, become harder to understand when they're excited/drunk/agitated etc etc. So I've no doubt the listener should have been able to tell that the voice they heard was not Australian. Now the problem lies with a non English speaker being the witness in question. I believe she needed an interpreter is that correct? This could be why the words 'get out of there' are making no sense to us. 1. it could have been someone else all together or 2. the witness has got it all wrong.

In any event, as others have already stated this is just the tip of the iceberg witness statement wise. There wil be a lot more to come out.

 

[Kitoki]

I thought the phone call to his workmate was prior to the attack on Jill. It was 1:20am I think... Correct me if I am wrong.

A slight clarification here - I think there were two lots of missed calls:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...e-say-colleagues/story-fnat79vb-1226596930013

"Mr Smith, who had been out with Bayley and his girlfriend on the Friday night, said on the Saturday he discovered missed calls from Bayley between 12.50 and 1.20am --- about the time Ms Meagher was attacked -- and between 5 and 6am, when police say Bayley buried her."


I don't believe there is any reason to believe Mr Smith was in any way involved and I think from the quotes given in the article there is absolutely nothing that would suggest that any acquaintance around Bayley was in any way encouraging or privy to his horrible behaviour.

"Mr Smith said on the Tuesday he commented to Bayley, "How sad is it about this Jill?" and Bayley replied: "I know. It's sad, isn't it? I wonder what happened?""

I'm sure more will come out in the trial if anyone else is in any way implicated but as someone deeply shocked by the proximity of so many of these locations to my own home, I can only imagine how much more awful it would be for Mr Smith to learn that the acts were perpetrated by someone he knew, who also called him for help. Without any evidence to the contrary, I feel the same empathy for the man who he tried to call as I do for the man who picked him up on the highway for petrol.


(MOO of course)

 

[Jmbr]

I think the 'get out of there' has been muddled due to the listeners broken English IF it was even Jill that said it. I'm still not convinced it was as there has been no mention of an accent by the witness. Jill was only here for a few years wasn't she? In an intense situation her Irish accent would have been thicker than ever - the Irish, I've found, become harder to understand when they're excited/drunk/agitated etc etc. So I've no doubt the listener should have been able to tell that the voice they heard was not Australian. Now the problem lies with a non English speaker being the witness in question. I believe she needed an interpreter is that correct? This could be why the words 'get out of there' are making no sense to us. 1. it could have been someone else all together or 2. the witness has got it all wrong.

In any event, as others have already stated this is just the tip of the iceberg witness statement wise. There wil be a lot more to come out.

An Australian would have an accent to an Asian too... We also have accents, and to a foreign person, English may just be English. Also, as I said earlier, she spent childhood years in Aus, plus 3 years as an adult, her accent would have been affected, and maybe quite soft. I know Toms is not very strong. Though I do agree that my accent is probably a lot stronger when I'm angry or drunk.. I think more was heard, but for privacy they hoped to keep that from the public unless he pleaded not guilty, which if course he has.

They don't want, nor do they need, to let the public in on every bit of info they uncovered.

 

[rez125]

An Australian would have an accent to an Asian too... We also have accents, and to a foreign person, English may just be English.

Quite true. Unless you're really up with how an Australian/Irish person sounds it's be very hard to clarify.

To a non English speaker it may be the same as hearing a Swiss and a German speaking German and having to tell which one was which. Not easy unless you really know how each one sounds.

 

[DrWatson]

They don't want, nor do they need, to let the public in on every bit of info they uncovered.

<modsnip>

Just re the "Get out of here" evidence; while I initially assumed it was Jill, the more I think about it, the more I think it may have been a third party, perhaps another resident nearby, hearing the scuffling or commotion, in the laneway. If in fact it WAS that phrase. And of course we don't know just how non-English speaking the witnesses are. The fact that they needed an interpreter just suggests that they have difficulties with the language and in particular, the language that may be used in court. Hence the interpreter. But many people can actually understand the language better than they can express it.

I can understand French and German, for example, WAY better than I can speak it. And if I heard a single phrase, repeated, I could probably recall it pretty accurately - even if I didn't know what it meant.

However, I agree that that piece of evidence - in isolation - poses as many questions as it may answer.

 

[grange]

Interesting article, including pics of Jill handbag, the shovel used and others. So sad.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...t-documents-show/story-e6freuy9-1226595956235

 

[catswhiskers]

SisterWolf:
The reason I think this is highly unlikely Paulie is that in order for sexual arousal, he would be choking himself, not Jill. What purpose would choking Jill serve for HIS sexual arousal? Rape is about power and control.
Maybe he was choking himself and her. Or, maybe he got off on choking others. I mentioned the case of teenagers to illustrate that one can get a high from choking. Though one can be sadistic and choke. That is different, and maybe that is what bayley exhibited. I personally don't think so- i just think he was keeping her quiet, but she died during the rape. It's as simple as that. Think about it, he is out in the open near buildings, his first precaution is to keep silent, nothing else. Choking someone is a surefire way to keep them from yelling- the more they scream, the more you choke. It's elementary. So he needed to keep from being noticed, so he used choking as he means to keep Jill silent.

Also, I don't think this argument could possibly convince a jury that he wasn't guilty of murder. He didn't intend to murder her but he strangles her with sustained force long enough to kill her. I can't remember the exact legal wording regarding the law of murder ( someone was kind enough to post it recently in a thread) but from memory, the fact that he knows that sustained strangulation with that amount of force would be likely to result in her death, is means enough to convict him of murder, regardless of whether he says he 'intended' to or not.
He might know that strangulation can result in death, though he might not have been- at that very moment- cognisant of his actions because he was preoccupied with the rape, which distracted his attention from the amount of pressure he was applying to the neck/throat, &#8216;I honestly didn&#8217;t think I was choking her that hard&#8217;. Now, not paying attention to something so critical at that point in time is negligent, because he obviously should have been attentive to wtf he was up to. I am obviously aware of the ridiculous irony of what I am saying here, given that a rape was in process, though this conversation gets to the technicalities of the law, insofar as I can see it all, so we need to be making completely ridiculous points like these. I apologise to everyone.

I don't think a jury can believe a word he says regarding the account of what happened or his feelings of remorse as he's already proven with the rehabilitation that he lied and told them what they wanted to hear just to get an early release.
I believe Bayley is capable of genuine compassion, remorse, sympathy, though I think that when he gets into a certain environment (macho, blokey, masculine- like say his gym), he is impressionable and he can change. That note about how he &#8216;lied his way out&#8217; could quite possibly have been posturing on his part in front of mates- though I do believe he just gamed the system there (Christians- who believes &#8216;em, eh? Wink, wink). What we need in society is to disband masculinity and machismo, then crimes against women will plummet. Crimes against women are about power and control- and bragging to your mates about it. If you get rid of the bragging to your mates part, then we&#8217;ll lose 90% of crimes against women in a jiffy- and all wars, too. George Bush only went to war to &#8216;get back&#8217; at the arabs- he was far better off securing america&#8217;s borders at far less cost. It&#8217;s all about show-boating, and it leaves many victims. I reckon bayley has been a victim of an appalling culture of machismo which has left him a predator attacking victims. He&#8217;s damaged.

Way too many excuses being made for someone with a long history of violence against women IMO. He seems to have a knack for feigning remorse when it suits his purpose. He's been granted enough compassion already - that ship sailed years ago.
:moo:

 

[marlywings]

Folks I've just read the last few pages, removed some posts & edited others.

All members are welcome to state their opinions as long as they're within our TOS. Members can also provide their own theories on what may have happened.

Members are not allowed to tell others what or how to post...this is a mods job.

IF you have a problem with a post, please don't reply to it, instead, use the alert button which is located at top right corner of the post & our mods will review it.

 

[Ozelulu]

A slight clarification here - I think there were two lots of missed calls:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...e-say-colleagues/story-fnat79vb-1226596930013

"Mr Smith, who had been out with Bayley and his girlfriend on the Friday night, said on the Saturday he discovered missed calls from Bayley between 12.50 and 1.20am --- about the time Ms Meagher was attacked -- and between 5 and 6am, when police say Bayley buried her."


I don't believe there is any reason to believe Mr Smith was in any way involved and I think from the quotes given in the article there is absolutely nothing that would suggest that any acquaintance around Bayley was in any way encouraging or privy to his horrible behaviour.

"Mr Smith said on the Tuesday he commented to Bayley, "How sad is it about this Jill?" and Bayley replied: "I know. It's sad, isn't it? I wonder what happened?""

I'm sure more will come out in the trial if anyone else is in any way implicated but as someone deeply shocked by the proximity of so many of these locations to my own home, I can only imagine how much more awful it would be for Mr Smith to learn that the acts were perpetrated by someone he knew, who also called him for help. Without any evidence to the contrary, I feel the same empathy for the man who he tried to call as I do for the man who picked him up on the highway for petrol.


(MOO of course)

I was thinking that AB probably tried to call him after his car ran out of petrol.

I thought that would fit the time frame but when you consider the cctv footage of his car entering and exiting the laneway at 4.22 to 4.25 am, that would mean he was trying to call his friend 35 minutes later. You would think that he would have still had Jill's body in his car at that stage. It wouldn't have been enough time to drive to Gisborne and bury her and start driving home again.

The only thing I can think of is trying to find an alibi for himself.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I think the 'get out of there' has been muddled due to the listeners broken English IF it was even Jill that said it. I'm still not convinced it was as there has been no mention of an accent by the witness. Jill was only here for a few years wasn't she? In an intense situation her Irish accent would have been thicker than ever - the Irish, I've found, become harder to understand when they're excited/drunk/agitated etc etc. So I've no doubt the listener should have been able to tell that the voice they heard was not Australian. Now the problem lies with a non English speaker being the witness in question. I believe she needed an interpreter is that correct? This could be why the words 'get out of there' are making no sense to us. 1. it could have been someone else all together or 2. the witness has got it all wrong.

In any event, as others have already stated this is just the tip of the iceberg witness statement wise. There wil be a lot more to come out.

If you aren't a native speaker of a language, you don't hear the accents. These witnesses are Chinese, probably Mandarin speakers. I can speak a bit of Mandarin and Cantonese. I remember once my teacher telling me that someone was speaking Cantonese with a Vietnamese accent. I wouldn't have had the first clue.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I was thinking that AB probably tried to call him after his car ran out of petrol.

I thought that would fit the time frame but when you consider the cctv footage of his car entering and exiting the laneway at 4.22 to 4.25 am, that would mean he was trying to call his friend 35 minutes later. You would think that he would have still had Jill's body in his car at that stage. It wouldn't have been enough time to drive to Gisborne and bury her and start driving home again.

The only thing I can think of is trying to find an alibi for himself.

Yes, and between 1250 and 0120 he was still stressing about the girlfriend, probably ringing his mate about that.