Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2
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Now at least we know the National archives record did have the wrong spelling. Its definitely Remakel on the form.
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They said in the last conversations episode that they wouldn’t go into detail on the American library discovery because they’re in the process of investigating the lead. They didn’t ever say they’d talk about it in this episode released today.
that tick on the ‘married’ box. Wow it’s big. That says to me that she feels married, like excited about being newly married. I know people have searched for a marriage record and not found anything but I wonder if there’s something we’ve missed here. Feels like such a likely possibility. Changes her name by deedpoll before she leaves Australia to what she knows will be her new married name. Maybe some kind of wedding ceremony that was more symbolic happened rather than something legally recorded?
that tick on the ‘married’ box. Wow it’s big. That says to me that she feels married, like excited about being newly married. I know people have searched for a marriage record and not found anything but I wonder if there’s something we’ve missed here. Feels like such a likely possibility. Changes her name by deedpoll before she leaves Australia to what she knows will be her new married name. Maybe some kind of wedding ceremony that was more symbolic happened rather than something legally recorded?
Itsapuzzle
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Thanks for the screenshot, will have a good look at it and compare it with the previous cards we have here. The passport number seems to be written with a different pen, someone else's pen/pencil, added after? Is that 45 different to how Marion was writing 4 in the past? Not sure, looks different, hard to get clear focus on it though.
Isn't it hilarious, they've gone out of their way to get this passenger card, even though the police don't want them to have it, and they've been fighting in NCAT for it .... and yet they say they don't want to do anything to hamper the police investigation, gonna be very, very careful not to disclose things the police don't want made public .... but wait, here's the flight card everyone, wheeeeeeeeeee. Look, I love this podcast, but that's truly funny .... or is it just me? Oh boy, I can see I'm gonna be obsessing over trying to find this magazine in the next few months .... unless an anonymous tipster drops a screenshot of it in my inbox to save me looking?? Worth a shot ... and I won't tell anyone, would keep it to myself .... just putting it out there .....
PS: The police have had this card in the file for around nine years or so, maybe more, haven't they .......
I know that whenever I travel I fill in most of my husband’s arrival card and he just signs it. I’m guessing that’s common? So maybe more than one person’s writing is on this card? Sometimes I fill in all of it except the passport number because the passport is tucked away in the overhead locker - then I’ll quickly do the number once we’ve landed, maybe using a different pen.
I think that signature could easily be F and then some kind of n or m for middle name/s then Remakel.
Looks also like it could be a quick Fnr - the initials of the first names?
Oops, sorry, same idea but you beat me to it!
poppypopcorn
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I think the problem with this whole case is that Sally is believing things she has been told by her mum without question. What is it that the police say - believe no-one, question everything? Marion may have been in the UK for one day to dash around some very close to each other small towns, buy and write a load of postcards and then disappeared off somewhere else, leaving the postcards for other people to send. Apart from calls where Marion said she was in Sussex, and hte postcards, that's it. There's no proper "proof". No hotel bookings, car rental, official documents at all. I know she;s Marion's daughter and I'd want to believe my mum too.
The phone call and return to Australia is a case in point - Marion was either not in the UK when she called, or Sally has the date wrong. Because the logistics of catching a flight from Heathrow T3 to HK and onto Brisbane mean she'd have been in the air already.
But I don't think anything which Marion told Sally can be taken as truth and accepted as fact.
The phone call and return to Australia is a case in point - Marion was either not in the UK when she called, or Sally has the date wrong. Because the logistics of catching a flight from Heathrow T3 to HK and onto Brisbane mean she'd have been in the air already.
But I don't think anything which Marion told Sally can be taken as truth and accepted as fact.
But I don't think anything which Marion told Sally can be taken as truth and accepted as fact.[/QUOTE]
I agree the only circumstance that we could accept the "truth" as told by Marion to Sally is if it was not Marion whom changed her name and none to the following steps taken by Florabella was Marion … and that seems highly unlikely.
How do you not tell your family you got married and change your name, and not just your last name.
If it was not Marion on the return flight the "scam" involved multiple people including a female. I just don't think this is likely.
have been looking at crimes in the late 90's to see if I can find anything similar or a male scamming women of money, you would think if this was the case it wouldn't be their first or last crime.
I agree the only circumstance that we could accept the "truth" as told by Marion to Sally is if it was not Marion whom changed her name and none to the following steps taken by Florabella was Marion … and that seems highly unlikely.
How do you not tell your family you got married and change your name, and not just your last name.
If it was not Marion on the return flight the "scam" involved multiple people including a female. I just don't think this is likely.
have been looking at crimes in the late 90's to see if I can find anything similar or a male scamming women of money, you would think if this was the case it wouldn't be their first or last crime.
Still making my way through this episode... agree with others, the pilot thing warrants more scrutiny! A Cathay pilot based in Hong Kong is certainly a coincidence.
the ita Buttrose thing is total filler. I turned off the episode when they started asking her about whether she would have put her previous items into storage. Totally irrelevant.
the ita Buttrose thing is total filler. I turned off the episode when they started asking her about whether she would have put her previous items into storage. Totally irrelevant.
Ok so we know that she couldn't have legally got married in the UK, but what about in Hong Kong? This article speaks of the current legislation around marriage in Hong Kong suggests she could have married without being a resident. Getting Married in Hong Kong
"Generally speaking, all you need in order to get married in Hong Kong is a valid passport and birth certificate."
"All in all, getting married in Hong Kong is quite simple, at least for heterosexual couples. There are no residential requirements. You simply have to observe a registration procedure with the Hong Kong Authorities."
Hong Kong moved from British rule (when presumably, British laws were followed and you'd need to be a resident to get married), to Chinese rule (when I am guessing..someone help me out and verify??? current laws came into effect) in June 1997, in time for Marion's travel via there later that year. It looks like you have to pay to search Hong Kong marriage records. I've sent this info to Sally via facebook, although I'm sure her sleuths are already all over it!
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Sophie-Renee
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I may have picked up wrongly the from the original podcast that it wouldn't be gone into in the next. Or missed a bit. It seemed all rolled up into what they were trying to convey was this amazing episode next in terms of revelations so just assumed.
I checked findmypast for the marriage record and checked the worldwide option. That's not to say that worldwide will include every single country ever but I certainly think would include anywhere Marion would have gone onto if she never married in the UK. Although I don't think she did go on anywhere else... I am not sure if you can choose to apply for your records not to be made available publicly on the likes of findmypast or sites like it. It seems to be automatic but is there an opt out? Maybe something to look into... if Marion was still around or someone involved at the time these sites came into existence... I suppose they could apply for those records not to be made public. I know in UK now u can choose for your electoral roll to not be on an open viewing list. Probably with more general records though u would have to make a more formal request. If there was foul play or Marion genuinely was out there and didn't want to be found, making the record unavailable to be searched online would be an obvious request to make.
I checked findmypast for the marriage record and checked the worldwide option. That's not to say that worldwide will include every single country ever but I certainly think would include anywhere Marion would have gone onto if she never married in the UK. Although I don't think she did go on anywhere else... I am not sure if you can choose to apply for your records not to be made available publicly on the likes of findmypast or sites like it. It seems to be automatic but is there an opt out? Maybe something to look into... if Marion was still around or someone involved at the time these sites came into existence... I suppose they could apply for those records not to be made public. I know in UK now u can choose for your electoral roll to not be on an open viewing list. Probably with more general records though u would have to make a more formal request. If there was foul play or Marion genuinely was out there and didn't want to be found, making the record unavailable to be searched online would be an obvious request to make.
I don't know - I wouldn't assume that Hong Kong (i.e. China) would include their records in a public data capture like findmypast. The fact you have to pay $140HKD to even search makes me think they don't. China is obviously notoriously a closed book when it comes to official info like this.
This link showed up in my google search results for Hong Kong + Remakel + Luxembourg Full text of "1996"
but I can't for the life of me get the google translate function to work on it - anyone else have any luck? The summary text on the google search results is very enticing!
but I can't for the life of me get the google translate function to work on it - anyone else have any luck? The summary text on the google search results is very enticing!
It’s been so long since I’ve commented on this forum but I’m all caught up now!
Here’s my current thoughts-
Wow! It does seem likely that Marion met the Florabella she lived near as a child. That seems the most likely place she got the name from tbh! Great job tracking that down!
I want to preface my next statement by saying that I feel for sally and I want nothing more than for her to get answers. There’s been at least one instance where sally and/or representatives of hers have said that certain things have been fact and then they’ve turned out not to be fact, such as the Wagga teachers college stuff. Given that there’s no concrete evidence saying that phone call a) took place on the first and b) was made from Tunbridge Wells, I think there is a big possibility the date is incorrect. I can barely remember what I did last month, let alone what I was doing in August 1997 so I’m in no way blaming sally if she did make a mistake in remembering the date of the call or which bank she visited or where her mum went to college.
If the handwriting was in fact hers, then it was her on the plane. The call must have taken place on a different date or at the very least from a different location.
Next thing I wanted to say was that I agree with everyone who is outraged about the treatment of Fernand. Yikes. The ball was certainly dropped with him. Also I have said this before but it’s completely impossible that it was him that placed the ad. He just couldn’t have done it because of what police confirmed re no Remakels entering or leaving the country with reference to the 1990 date. It’s MUCH more likely that some catfish has used the name of a famous football player to try and pick up chicks! Why is there not more investigation being done into the art centre or the pilot or the dentist? Why are they so obsessed with Fernand? Is it because the conflict in the podcast makes for good listening?
Now, I have to confess I had to turn conversations 17 off because it made me really angry! I will admit I’m biased because I work within the legal industry in Australia (not affiliated with NCAT at all I don’t work in that field). Bryan sounded so self entitled raving on about how it’s not fair they haven’t got an NCAT decision yet and about how they’re waiting for it. Guess what Bryan? There’s about 6363726263 other people waiting for court/tribunal decisions too, you’re a number in a queue and just because this case is affiliated with a media organisation doesn’t give them the right to queue jump or expect special treatment. It really irritates me. You’ll get a decision when one is available, yes the legal system is slow, that’s just the way it is, there’s not enough resources allocated to it to make it go faster unfortunately. In my jurisdiction, it’s not uncommon to be waiting in excess of 6 months for a decision, in fact it’s pretty standard. Yes that sucks, but it is what it is.
Also, it wasn’t possible for her to be married in the UK but what about in another European country such as Luxembourg? I’ve tried to look into the marriage requirements before but it’s pretty hard to find info from back in that time period. There’s no reason to suggest she didn’t travel in Europe from the UK. If she didn’t get married legally, due to visa/other restrictions, maybe she had some sort of commitment ceremony and from that she considered herself married? I have family members who consider themselves married, despite not having a legal ceremony and only a commitment ceremony.
Could she have returned to Australia to apply for some sort of alternate visa? There are visas that you need to be in Australia to apply for right?
My theory at the moment is that she was having some sort of mental health issue that caused her to do some strange things and stage this disappearance.
Here’s my current thoughts-
Wow! It does seem likely that Marion met the Florabella she lived near as a child. That seems the most likely place she got the name from tbh! Great job tracking that down!
I want to preface my next statement by saying that I feel for sally and I want nothing more than for her to get answers. There’s been at least one instance where sally and/or representatives of hers have said that certain things have been fact and then they’ve turned out not to be fact, such as the Wagga teachers college stuff. Given that there’s no concrete evidence saying that phone call a) took place on the first and b) was made from Tunbridge Wells, I think there is a big possibility the date is incorrect. I can barely remember what I did last month, let alone what I was doing in August 1997 so I’m in no way blaming sally if she did make a mistake in remembering the date of the call or which bank she visited or where her mum went to college.
If the handwriting was in fact hers, then it was her on the plane. The call must have taken place on a different date or at the very least from a different location.
Next thing I wanted to say was that I agree with everyone who is outraged about the treatment of Fernand. Yikes. The ball was certainly dropped with him. Also I have said this before but it’s completely impossible that it was him that placed the ad. He just couldn’t have done it because of what police confirmed re no Remakels entering or leaving the country with reference to the 1990 date. It’s MUCH more likely that some catfish has used the name of a famous football player to try and pick up chicks! Why is there not more investigation being done into the art centre or the pilot or the dentist? Why are they so obsessed with Fernand? Is it because the conflict in the podcast makes for good listening?
Now, I have to confess I had to turn conversations 17 off because it made me really angry! I will admit I’m biased because I work within the legal industry in Australia (not affiliated with NCAT at all I don’t work in that field). Bryan sounded so self entitled raving on about how it’s not fair they haven’t got an NCAT decision yet and about how they’re waiting for it. Guess what Bryan? There’s about 6363726263 other people waiting for court/tribunal decisions too, you’re a number in a queue and just because this case is affiliated with a media organisation doesn’t give them the right to queue jump or expect special treatment. It really irritates me. You’ll get a decision when one is available, yes the legal system is slow, that’s just the way it is, there’s not enough resources allocated to it to make it go faster unfortunately. In my jurisdiction, it’s not uncommon to be waiting in excess of 6 months for a decision, in fact it’s pretty standard. Yes that sucks, but it is what it is.
Also, it wasn’t possible for her to be married in the UK but what about in another European country such as Luxembourg? I’ve tried to look into the marriage requirements before but it’s pretty hard to find info from back in that time period. There’s no reason to suggest she didn’t travel in Europe from the UK. If she didn’t get married legally, due to visa/other restrictions, maybe she had some sort of commitment ceremony and from that she considered herself married? I have family members who consider themselves married, despite not having a legal ceremony and only a commitment ceremony.
Could she have returned to Australia to apply for some sort of alternate visa? There are visas that you need to be in Australia to apply for right?
My theory at the moment is that she was having some sort of mental health issue that caused her to do some strange things and stage this disappearance.
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