Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Garyb]

I found it of interest that Marion was described as "frantic" at the time of her resignation, in that four day block from June 16-20. That's interesting isn't it. This frantic state comes after all the groundwork has been laid - snippet of timeline below to demonstrate - house sold, name changed .... need to think about this, it's curious .... one would think a frantic state would trigger the timeline below to follow, not precede. I find it odd.

April 25: Marion sells her home in three weeks for $165,000, a loss of $15,000.

May 15: Marion changed her name via deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel.

June 8: Marion attends Sally and Chris’ engagement party at their home in Tallai on the Gold Coast.

June 16: Marion writes her resignation letter to The Southport School to leave four days later (20th June).

June 21: Marion goes to Chris and Sally’s (with Lesley Loveday) for a roast dinner at Marion’s request.

June 23: Marion leaves Australia for the UK via Tokyo. Lesley drives Marion to the bus station in Southport to go to the airport and is the last known person to see her.

I keep thinking we are not being told the full story and keep coming back to Lesley dropping her at the airport bus with do many bags they had trouble fitting them in the luggage compartment.
If this is the case she would have had a significant excess luggage bill. If it took the two of them to carry the bags how did she manage them at brisbane Tokyo and Heathrow. Perhaps the other bags were left somewhere for her return.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Re the Ballina bone not being Marion.
I think it's more a case of wanting closure, needing to know for certain one way or the other.
It's not a matter of being glad that your loved one has been found deceased.

It's the not knowing that can destroy a person's life

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I keep thinking we are not being told the full story and keep coming back to Lesley dropping her at the airport bus with do many bags they had trouble fitting them in the luggage compartment.
If this is the case she would have had a significant excess luggage bill. If it took the two of them to carry the bags how did she manage them at brisbane Tokyo and Heathrow. Perhaps the other bags were left somewhere for her return.

Exactly. If two people had difficulty getting the luggage onto the bus Marion couldnt have managed it all on her own.
I've wondered if the shipping container was a just a story and that Marion actually put her things in a lock-up storage facility (possibly near the airport).
So much effort has been expended on trying to find bank staff, the parent she used to flirt with and the dentist but theres been no attempt to find bus drivers who drove the air port route. I know its doubtful a driver would remember a lady with a gazillion bags after 23 years but no more so than a teller remembering a 5k cash withdrawal.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I found it of interest that Marion was described as "frantic" at the time of her resignation, in that four day block from June 16-20. That's interesting isn't it. This frantic state comes after all the groundwork has been laid - snippet of timeline below to demonstrate - house sold, name changed .... need to think about this, it's curious .... one would think a frantic state would trigger the timeline below to follow, not precede. I find it odd.

April 25: Marion sells her home in three weeks for $165,000, a loss of $15,000.

May 15: Marion changed her name via deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel.

June 8: Marion attends Sally and Chris’ engagement party at their home in Tallai on the Gold Coast.

June 16: Marion writes her resignation letter to The Southport School to leave four days later (20th June).

June 21: Marion goes to Chris and Sally’s (with Lesley Loveday) for a roast dinner at Marion’s request.

June 23: Marion leaves Australia for the UK via Tokyo. Lesley drives Marion to the bus station in Southport to go to the airport and is the last known person to see her.

Very interesting! Sally says in the first episode Marion sold the house to fund the overseas trip. She knew she was going in March when she listed the house for sale. Perhaps Marion originally requested extended leave or a sabbatical and this was declined by TSS which necessitated her resignation?

Brian remarks in the latest episode that Marion taking her teaching stuff feom TSS and storing it in her parents shed is proof she was intending to return. I dont agree. Had Marion been intending to keep those items they would have been added to her shipping container, or at the very least packed carefully rather than being hastily thrown into boxes 4 days before she flew out. Looks to me to be more like Marion wasnt intending to keep the stuff but something upset her on her last day and she decided she was going to take everything she'd contributed with her to prove a point.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Have listened to conversations 16 and I am still annoyed about the Susie thing. I know the UK concept of distance within the country is different to that in Australia. But come on. Marion was not "just there" in relation to Susie. She could not have chosen a location for her holiday FURTHER from where Susie lived and still been in England. It's 350 miles, a 6 hour drive, far north west of England to far south east. Also, the Lake District where Susie lives is a popular holiday place, lots of foreign visitors, unlike where Marion was. Had Marion had any plans whatsoever to see Susie, she would have gone elsewhere. It is fairly clear to me that Marion had no intention to meet up with Susie - and Susie has confirmed that. Leave the woman alone. For all we know she's ill or something.

Also this "Oh Marion had plans to stay and work in the UK" - you can't just do that, legally at least. Yes there are lots of schemes for young Australians under the age of 30 to get a working holiday visa. But Marion was 50. And on a tourist visa. She had no right to work in the UK (Sally confirmed she had no right to apply for a passport from the UK or anywhere else) and would have had to get paperwork done to prove her teaching qualifications were transferrable. And a working Visa, or leave to remain, or get married to a UK/European Union citizen to change her status that way - the podcast are presenting the working in the UK as a solid plan when it was a non-starter and obviously just a wee story she made up to cover her real plans.

Anyway. I still believe that the choice of Sussex for this extended holiday holds the key as it's so odd. Drawing an Australian comparison, it would be like me booking an extended holiday to somewhere 50 miles outside Sydney and spending my time mooching around rural towns and village coffee shops, totally ignoring the usual tourist places of Sydney itself, the beaches, the Blue Mountains.... you just don't do that without a real reason to be in that region.

That's really interesting! I wonder why Marion chose there??

 

[Sophie-Renee]

That's really interesting! I wonder why Marion chose there??

I have been wondering more about that. As I have mentioned before I was confused about the Remakel movement or should I say lack of since 1990 and wondered if it meant there was one in 1990 but it is more likely further back you go. On findymy past electoral records that tend to run from 2002 to present day depending on the country.. no record was found for Remakel in Australia. That said you can also go as unlisted I think, you certainly can in the last few years. I don't think this F. Remakel was the person's real name. But it would be difficult to find out if someone called themselves that at the time and changed their name to it later on. What seems odd is if the ad was linked to florabella and that person got her to change her name legally would they not do it too? The Tunbridge Wells thing is key in that maybe someone involved came from UK rather than Australia and remained in UK after florabella came back. If they had changed their name and were linked to the ad, they could have since changed it again or changed it back so as not to become tracked via the advert. There are no remakels listed in UK either. Most tbh seem to be in the USA which it seems there has been no mentioned connection to. Let's say Marion had a bad encounter in England or experience and fled back home, could she have been getting coerced by someone still in the UK? It seems there is no record of name change by florabella after that, just the ceasing of any activity which can be uncovered by the means of investigative journalism alone. These of course are all just stabs in the dark.. but maybe the reason little can be found via Luxembourg and Australian connections is because the big key lies in England and do we even know if the authorities over there are involved? Do we definitely know for example she was in Tunbridge Wells, have they verified for sure where she stayed the location of the phone box used and I believe they were trying to ask for visitor records for a tourist spot over there but most records that far back require it to be a police request. Postcards where recieved but was the postmark all Tunbridge Wells? I don't know if they said, could postmarks be made out clearly? If she was indeed there could she have gone elsewhere and visited someone with Tunbridge Wells as a base. We know the airport she flew from and back to in Australia... If it was Tunbridge Wells likelihood she would have flown into is London Gatwick. Has that been confirmed? This may all sound very basic but I just realised I have never heard that mentioned just that... She travelled to the UK and went to T. W and not the airport she flew into. Maybe a bit much for a Thursday afternoon... But there it is..

 

[poppypopcorn]

Back in the 90s, most long haul flights which weren't package holidays went into London Heathrow. I know that both BA and JAL used Heathrow for their Toyko flights. I would be really surprised if she flew into Gatwick, even if she was going to Kent/Sussex. Assuming of course that she did what she said and went where she said she did. Which at this point I don't think we can.

 

[KiwiNZ]

The name change could have been to avoid someone or something, maybe not her family but something to do with work. If someone had threatened that she would never get a job in teaching again, maybe she thought by changing her name it would protect her for future employment. Break the connection to the threaten difficult for them to locate her

 

[Meligator]

I found it of interest that Marion was described as "frantic" at the time of her resignation, in that four day block from June 16-20. That's interesting isn't it. This frantic state comes after all the groundwork has been laid - snippet of timeline below to demonstrate - house sold, name changed .... need to think about this, it's curious .... one would think a frantic state would trigger the timeline below to follow, not precede. I find it odd.

April 25: Marion sells her home in three weeks for $165,000, a loss of $15,000.

May 15: Marion changed her name via deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel.

June 8: Marion attends Sally and Chris’ engagement party at their home in Tallai on the Gold Coast.

June 16: Marion writes her resignation letter to The Southport School to leave four days later (20th June).

June 21: Marion goes to Chris and Sally’s (with Lesley Loveday) for a roast dinner at Marion’s request.

June 23: Marion leaves Australia for the UK via Tokyo. Lesley drives Marion to the bus station in Southport to go to the airport and is the last known person to see her.

While Sally knew about Marion's preparations, Marion may have kept it a complete secret from anyone at school. I wonder if Marion was in fear of someone at the school and thought her resignation might trigger some retaliation/repercussions (hence waiting until the last possible moment to resign, and then appearing more frantic following the resignation).

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Back in the 90s, most long haul flights which weren't package holidays went into London Heathrow. I know that both BA and JAL used Heathrow for their Toyko flights. I would be really surprised if she flew into Gatwick, even if she was going to Kent/Sussex. Assuming of course that she did what she said and went where she said she did. Which at this point I don't think we can.

You make a very good point. Not nearest airport would necessarily even run flights to certain countries. On long haul it probably would have come from a stopover airport too. Things were very different back then and because Tunbridge Wells is a kind of random place it would be more I suppose to do with the airline she went with, time she travelled and possibly any offers that were on at the time. And yes... Who knows if it was even T. W!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Can someone who has listened to the latest episode explain the bit at the end where they discuss F. R. using his own initials to sound out the spelling of Leydon? I didn't understand the significance at all but they all agreed it was it was important and unusual. Sorry if I'm a bit dim.

I think they were implying that he's some kind of egomaniac for saying E for Ernest and N for Nicholas when spelling Leydon because they are allegedly two of his names - ah phooey - actually his father's name was Ernest, so I don't think there's really a story there about saying E Ernest, no psychological analysis necessary, hey - just my thoughts

 

[thunderwombat]

I think they were implying that he's some kind of egomaniac for saying E for Ernest and N for Nicholas when spelling Leydon because they are allegedly two of his names - ah phooey - actually his father's name was Ernest, so I don't think there's really a story there about saying E Ernest, no psychological analysis necessary, hey - just my thoughts

Thanks for explaining. Sweet Jesus, they really are clutching at straws with that one. I'd never use my own name because the first letter can be K or C, but Nicolas can only be N and Ernest only an E. And nothing would be odd if Sally used S for Sally either.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thanks for explaining. Sweet Jesus, they really are clutching at straws with that one. I'd never use my own name because the first letter can be K or C, but Nicolas can only be N and Ernest only an E. And nothing would be odd if Sally used S for Sally either.

They really are being harsh! Using familiar names is actually a very smart way of avoiding language barriers because names require no translation or grammatical context. If Ferdinand had narcissistic tendancies that conversation would not have been conducted in English

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The name change could have been to avoid someone or something, maybe not her family but something to do with work. If someone had threatened that she would never get a job in teaching again, maybe she thought by changing her name it would protect her for future employment. Break the connection to the threaten difficult for them to locate her

Im not sure changing your name would give much protection within the education system,. Youd have to update your teachers registration to your new name and your past employment would be linked to that and included on your resume. The minute you applied for a job everyone would know where you came from and why you left.
The school network is VERY interconnected, especially the private/GPS schools. If there was scandal at your last school the parents at your new school would be talking about it before you stepped foot in the place.

Edited to add. I dont think the issues at TSS were at serious as is being suggested by the podcast. It's not uncommon for teachers to clash with school administration over teaching methods or for people to be unaccepting of performance feedback. If Marion's situation at TSS was dire she would not have been able to arrange (and so quickly) her daughters wedding in the TSS chapel. This is a special honour reserved for old boys. Sally/Chris have no connection to TSS and Marion herself had only been there 2 years.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I have been wondering more about that. As I have mentioned before I was confused about the Remakel movement or should I say lack of since 1990 and wondered if it meant there was one in 1990 but it is more likely further back you go. On findymy past electoral records that tend to run from 2002 to present day depending on the country.. no record was found for Remakel in Australia. That said you can also go as unlisted I think, you certainly can in the last few years. I don't think this F. Remakel was the person's real name. But it would be difficult to find out if someone called themselves that at the time and changed their name to it later on. What seems odd is if the ad was linked to florabella and that person got her to change her name legally would they not do it too? The Tunbridge Wells thing is key in that maybe someone involved came from UK rather than Australia and remained in UK after florabella came back. If they had changed their name and were linked to the ad, they could have since changed it again or changed it back so as not to become tracked via the advert. There are no remakels listed in UK either. Most tbh seem to be in the USA which it seems there has been no mentioned connection to. Let's say Marion had a bad encounter in England or experience and fled back home, could she have been getting coerced by someone still in the UK? It seems there is no record of name change by florabella after that, just the ceasing of any activity which can be uncovered by the means of investigative journalism alone. These of course are all just stabs in the dark.. but maybe the reason little can be found via Luxembourg and Australian connections is because the big key lies in England and do we even know if the authorities over there are involved? Do we definitely know for example she was in Tunbridge Wells, have they verified for sure where she stayed the location of the phone box used and I believe they were trying to ask for visitor records for a tourist spot over there but most records that far back require it to be a police request. Postcards where recieved but was the postmark all Tunbridge Wells? I don't know if they said, could postmarks be made out clearly? If she was indeed there could she have gone elsewhere and visited someone with Tunbridge Wells as a base. We know the airport she flew from and back to in Australia... If it was Tunbridge Wells likelihood she would have flown into is London Gatwick. Has that been confirmed? This may all sound very basic but I just realised I have never heard that mentioned just that... She travelled to the UK and went to T. W and not the airport she flew into. Maybe a bit much for a Thursday afternoon... But there it is..

My understanding (so probably not very reliable!) is that the police havent really looked at Marion's movements in the UK.
She returned to Australia, was located in Australia in 1997 and her passport has left since, so perhaps they dont feel they need to look to far outside of Australia?

The electoral role would only include permanent Remakels, those who have Australian citizenship. If the Remakel we are looking for, married Florabella would he be able to get residency without becoming an Australian citizen??? That could explain Marion's choice of name and the lack of Remakels on the electoral records.

 

[alleycat13]

So apparently Marion went to Balmain for college, not Wagga??

I’m so confused.. Wouldn’t the CV that Sally has, have where she went to teachers college on it?

I’d still be interested to know which years she attended. Wish we had a better timeline of her life before her disappearance.

P.S I listened to Conversations 16, disappointing that the year of the Armidale tip was mixed up. I still think it could be relevant, it’s just a shame that we know now it could potentially be a hoax.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Im not sure changing your name would give much protection within the education system,. Youd have to update your teachers registration to your new name and your past employment would be linked to that and included on your resume. The minute you applied for a job everyone would know where you came from and why you left.
The school network is VERY interconnected, especially the private/GPS schools. If there was scandal at your last school the parents at your new school would be talking about it before you stepped foot in the place.

Edited to add. I dont think the issues at TSS were at serious as is being suggested by the podcast. It's not uncommon for teachers to clash with school administration over teaching methods or for people to be unaccepting of performance feedback. If Marion's situation at TSS was dire she would not have been able to arrange (and so quickly) her daughters wedding in the TSS chapel. This is a special honour reserved for old boys. Sally/Chris have no connection to TSS and Marion herself had only been there 2 years.

your right I am clutching lol... I was trying to think for what reason I would change my name. Also the fact she wrote "house wife Luxemburg" on the re-entre card also suggest it wasn't simply to change her name for benign reasons. That's more of a total reinvention. I know a few people whom have changed their names by depol but they didn't reinvent their lives and it wasn't a secret

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

So apparently Marion went to Balmain for college, not Wagga??

I’m so confused.. Wouldn’t the CV that Sally has, have where she went to teachers college on it?

I’d still be interested to know which years she attended. Wish we had a better timeline of her life before her disappearance.

P.S I listened to Conversations 16, disappointing that the year of the Armidale tip was mixed up. I still think it could be relevant, it’s just a shame that we know now it could potentially be a hoax.

The whole teachers college thing is strange. In Mondays episode Sally talks about her Mums oldest friend Angela who she says was at teachers college with Marion - in Wagga.

You'd think the school chum would know, unless Sally got confused again and said the wrong place. But then this lady has said Balmain, and im sure Armidale has been mentioned too.

If Marion has an up to date teaching registration would she need to include her studies on her CV (particularly as it was so long ago)?

Would it have been possible to study some subjects at one location and others at another?? Or transfer studies between locations?

 

[alleycat13]

The whole teachers college thing is strange. In Mondays episode Sally talks about her Mums oldest friend Angela who she says was at teachers college with Marion - in Wagga.

You'd think the school chum would know, unless Sally got confused again and said the wrong place. But then this lady has said Balmain, and im sure Armidale has been mentioned too.

Exactly what I was thinking too. It's quite strange! I know there's a lot of info but they have been correcting people on Facebook for weeks saying that she definitely went to Wagga so it just seems strange! From what that Facebook comment says, it sounds like they would have graduated together because she said they lost touch when they both started teaching.. hmmm

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Oooh, thanks for this info alleycat13. Ah ha!
Mel 1303, where are ya .... you were onto it, downloading all those programs, searching high and low for proof ... h'mm, so it's Balmain College! Are these programs online too? Take a bow Mel1303, and all the other sleuths who were bugged by it. There it is. So I guess it rules out an Armidale link then.

So apparently Marion went to Balmain for college, not Wagga??

I’m so confused.. Wouldn’t the CV that Sally has, have where she went to teachers college on it?

I’d still be interested to know which years she attended. Wish we had a better timeline of her life before her disappearance.

P.S I listened to Conversations 16, disappointing that the year of the Armidale tip was mixed up. I still think it could be relevant, it’s just a shame that we know now it could potentially be a hoax.