Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

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  • #421
I've got a google alert out for Marion.
Not that it ever finds anything but this morning it came up with a Facebook page and a photo of Sally with Marion's best friend Angela.
 
  • #422
Just been looking back over the facebook Marion timeline and there were a few things I had forgot about. Between April and May her Medicare card was used 3 times at local clinics. Does this indicate she went to not just her local one each time- does it indicate a lot of moving around? Also in between these appointments will have been when she had changed her name to Florabella. Would her Medicare card also have needed to have the change of name in order to recieve treatment. The use of the card in Grafton has been discussed, but never really confirmed whether a patient can have a name change yet use their card in their former name? 3 times seems a lot in 2 months- but maybe not. It's hard to tell. She was 51- we don't know if she had any specific conditions that required ongoing care. It could have been preparation for going away for an extended time, sorting out medication etc getting possible vaccines? OR she could have been very ill.

If she had been diagnosed with something terminal for example, it could explain her change and frantic like beahaviour before leaving. It could also explain the coment made to Angela about if anything happens to her, make sure her children are ok. She may have wanted to keep the illness to herself, travel to UK while she still had the chance (doesn't explain why T.W specifically), but maybe her time was anything between a matter of weeks or months and because she didn't know, left in the possibility of .."if I choose to stay..send on shipping container.." Maybe an odd thing to say if she knew she was dying, but maybe amongst all her confusion thought it was best if she realised the was getting sicker while over there, to get them to believe she was deciding to stay on and not return, so she didn't have to face telling them she was in her last days and too sick to return. It seems probable she did return and use the Medicare card in Grafton . This could have been a final visit for treatment such as drugs for pain management in her final weeks. It could also explain why Sally was told Marion had said she didn't want to be contacted. This may have been coercion. If someone else maybe she had been travelling with knew of her illness, took large sums of money out either with Marion's knowledge or through deceptive means- as awful as it sounds, it could have been if Marion had not made a will they wanted to empty her accounts or MADE her empty her accounts. Things like a terminal illness can change someone's behaviour, they feel weak and powerless but same time probably don't want to be alone and don't want to hurt those nearest to them, even if it means hiding from them (could explain the name change) . A terminal illness could also explain no actions or movement by Florabella on return. It could simply have been a name change to slip off the radar and die without people knowing where she was and coming to see her. Again , this is just ONE possible theory that could explain a lot, but also one of many. She could have told nobody in her family, but if a person with bad intentions knew they may have failed to register the death - as for the body (it goes without saying what they could have done) and as awful as this theory is- they need to find out who went to those doctors and WHY. What happened to the medical records, did they move to another practice? If a patient dies presumably records are closed so what did the healthcare providers believe happened to Marion? Only the police can do this and need to be chasing up more leads on her healthcare.
 
  • #423
Just been looking back over the facebook Marion timeline and there were a few things I had forgot about. Between April and May her Medicare card was used 3 times at local clinics. Does this indicate she went to not just her local one each time- does it indicate a lot of moving around? Also in between these appointments will have been when she had changed her name to Florabella. Would her Medicare card also have needed to have the change of name in order to recieve treatment. The use of the card in Grafton has been discussed, but never really confirmed whether a patient can have a name change yet use their card in their former name? 3 times seems a lot in 2 months- but maybe not. It's hard to tell. She was 51- we don't know if she had any specific conditions that required ongoing care. It could have been preparation for going away for an extended time, sorting out medication etc getting possible vaccines? OR she could have been very ill.

If she had been diagnosed with something terminal for example, it could explain her change and frantic like beahaviour before leaving. It could also explain the coment made to Angela about if anything happens to her, make sure her children are ok. She may have wanted to keep the illness to herself, travel to UK while she still had the chance.

This is a theory I shared yesterday. I think this could be a valid theory, also from some other things she had said to Sally and a friend about wanting to remember them.

Also, I believe the Medicare card was touched upon in Episode 13: A Tangled Web. Don’t quote me on it, you’d have to double check but I think Ron Iddles says that her Medicare card wouldn’t necessarily be updated just because of her name change? Not 100% on that though.

On another note, wouldn’t it have been great to have Ron Iddles looking into this further, I wonder why that never went any further?..
 
  • #424
This is a theory I shared yesterday. I think this could be a valid theory, also from some other things she had said to Sally and a friend about wanting to remember them.

Also, I believe the Medicare card was touched upon in Episode 13: A Tangled Web. Don’t quote me on it, you’d have to double check but I think Ron Iddles says that her Medicare card wouldn’t necessarily be updated just because of her name change? Not 100% on that though.

On another note, wouldn’t it have been great to have Ron Iddles looking into this further, I wonder why that never went any further?..

Thanks, I will check this out again. A simple maybe almost oversimple thought occurred to me regarding Marion's knowledge of the car being sold. Short of someone actually being sent out to spy on Sally, the only person who would have known of Marion's car being sold would be the person that she sold it too!

So, this person may not be someone directly involved with Marion but could have known someone who was in contact with her at that time. I doubt very much that Sally would have gone into great depth with the buyer about her mother unless she had reason to- but was it eventually sold to someone she or her mother knew, could it be a person of interest? This isn't about pointing the finger at some innocent person who just happened to be the buyer, but like I say short of a spy- who else would have known ? Unless on sale, there was some sort of legal documentation of the car becoming registered in another name and them writing to Marion to confirm the sale, but it sounds to me it was not as formal as this. This follows on from the idea of someone coercing her perhaps out of her money. Was MARION really angry about the car being sold , based on how relaxed she was about it before she left? It seems more likely the person possibly making her empty her bank account was angry about it not going in, because whether Marion or someone else was draining her accounts, they seemed to be in a hurry to do so with the huge amounts being taken out on a daily basis. Yes, why would someone connected buy the car just to see the same money come back to them? But they maybe even paid a bit to someone they knew to encourage them to buy it, so they could get a fast sale-which would make them even more frustrated when the money didn't come through. Stabs in the dark again, though!
 
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  • #425
This is a theory I shared yesterday. I think this could be a valid theory, also from some other things she had said to Sally and a friend about wanting to remember them.

Also, I believe the Medicare card was touched upon in Episode 13: A Tangled Web. Don’t quote me on it, you’d have to double check but I think Ron Iddles says that her Medicare card wouldn’t necessarily be updated just because of her name change? Not 100% on that though.

On another note, wouldn’t it have been great to have Ron Iddles looking into this further, I wonder why that never went any further?..
Your medicare card wont be changed unless you deliberately change it. So even though Marion had changed her name by deedpoll, she would have been responsible for updating the change on other documents. From what has been said on the podcast, she only changed her passport.
 
  • #426
Thanks, I will check this out again. A simple maybe almost oversimple thought occurred to me regarding Marion's knowledge of the car being sold. Short of someone actually being sent out to spy on Sally, the only person who would have known of Marion's car being sold would be the person that she sold it too!

So, this person may not be someone directly involved with Marion but could have known someone who was in contact with her at that time. I doubt very much that Sally would have gone into great depth with the buyer about her mother unless she had reason to- but was it eventually sold to someone she or her mother knew, could it be a person of interest? This isn't about pointing the finger at some innocent person who just happened to be the buyer, but like I say short of a spy- who else would have known ? Unless on sale, there was some sort of legal documentation of the car becoming registered in another name and them writing to Marion to confirm the sale, but it sounds to me it was not as formal as this. This follows on from the idea of someone coercing her perhaps out of her money. Was MARION really angry about the car being sold , based on how relaxed she was about it before she left? It seems more likely the person possibly making her empty her bank account was angry about it not going in, because whether Marion or someone else was draining her accounts, they seemed to be in a hurry to do so with the huge amounts being taken out on a daily basis. Yes, why would someone connected buy the car just to see the same money come back to them? But they maybe even paid a bit to someone they knew to encourage them to buy it, so they could get a fast sale-which would make them even more frustrated when the money didn't come through. Stabs in the dark again, though!
Or someone saw a stranger driving the car? Maybe when pushed for a message for the family to convince them that it was Marion the bank was talking to, she came up with something she hadn't discussed widely with anyone else- Tell Sally Im angry about the car- would anyone other than Sally have known the arrangement? Potentially she didn't care less about the car, but had to think fast when pushed for something Sally would recognise as a personal arrangement. Another maybe
 
  • #427
Unless on sale, there was some sort of legal documentation of the car becoming registered in another name and them writing to Marion to confirm the sale, but it sounds to me it was not as formal as this

When you sell a car you (and the new owner) complete a transfer of ownership/registration. It should be lodged within 14 days of the sale and written confirmation is issued to both parties from the department of motor registration. It legally indicates the date of transfer (responsiblity for infringement notices, demerit points etc).

Marion must have signed her part of the transfer of ownership form before she left and given it to Sally in order for Sally to sell the car on her behalf. Once the new owner lodged the form Marion would have been sent a letter from dept motor registration for her records.

Marion may have learnt of the sale through a person she was in contact with or via the letter from DMR. If she did get the letter she was either in contact with Lesley (mail redirection) or she had changed some of her mail to an alternative address (po box?).
 
  • #428
Just been looking back over the facebook Marion timeline and there were a few things I had forgot about. Between April and May her Medicare card was used 3 times at local clinics. Does this indicate she went to not just her local one each time- does it indicate a lot of moving around?

Sorry if this is a really stupid question - but where is this Facebook timeline? Is it on the lady vanishes page??

Just wondering if the visits are confirmed to be GP clinics or if they could be optometrist, dentist, dermatologist etc? She could have been getting all her annual check ups done at once. If the clinics are related her regular doctor might work at different locations on different days.

Owen and Sally were both in their early 20's and they could have potentially still been listed on their Mums card (or the card number on their doctors record hadnt been updated from when it was Marions) This is fairly unlikely though as Owen was estranged from Marion and I imagine Sally would remember if it was her.
 
  • #429
Or someone saw a stranger driving the car? Maybe when pushed for a message for the family to convince them that it was Marion the bank was talking to, she came up with something she hadn't discussed widely with anyone else- Tell Sally Im angry about the car- would anyone other than Sally have known the arrangement? Potentially she didn't care less about the car, but had to think fast when pushed for something Sally would recognise as a personal arrangement. Another maybe

In one of the earlier episodes, Sally said the plan was to sell Marion's car (Honda Civic) and transfer the money but that Sally had decided to keep the Civic and sell her own Daihatsu and put the money for that sale into the bank. Like everyone else I'm confused about the timeline. It was mentioned that it took a while to sell and the final price was $7,500 which I remember because it seemed way over priced for a 2nd hand Daihatsu (think it was a Charade, not 100% sure) in 1997 and I went through the classifieds for that year in the S.M.H. but 7.5 K seems to have been the going price. Marion would have had to pre-fill her details on the sale/transfer form with her then current address and phone, driver's licence etc. and already signed it before she left. For a seller would that have been the end of it? In Victoria in 2019 it would be but back then in a different State I don't know. And if the car was insured there may have been a refund of the difference that would have been sent by cheque.

When Marion was talking to the bank and was asked if she wanted to to give a message, was the quote just "tell Sally I'm angry about the car" without mentioning the money? Marion may have become aware of Sally using the car, and with no money for the sale of any car being transferred in her account it could have been upsetting.
 
  • #430
Or someone saw a stranger driving the car? Maybe when pushed for a message for the family to convince them that it was Marion the bank was talking to, she came up with something she hadn't discussed widely with anyone else- Tell Sally Im angry about the car- would anyone other than Sally have known the arrangement? Potentially she didn't care less about the car, but had to think fast when pushed for something Sally would recognise as a personal arrangement. Another maybe

Agreed I dont think Marion gave two hoots about the car money I think she wanted to show Sally it was her (and not someone pretending to be her).
 
  • #431
  • #432
Agreed I dont think Marion gave two hoots about the car money I think she wanted to show Sally it was her (and not someone pretending to be her).
In Marion's place I would have been angry because it appeared that Sally was withholding the money to force me to contact her about it, after I'd said that I would be out of contact for a while.
 
  • #433
Just thinking about the sale of Marion’s house. I wonder if the real estate agent and the the solicitor handling the sale were contacted at all. They may have had a snippet of info from Marion re reason for sale and future plans?
 
  • #434
Sorry if this is a really stupid question - but where is this Facebook timeline? Is it on the lady vanishes page??

Just wondering if the visits are confirmed to be GP clinics or if they could be optometrist, dentist, dermatologist etc? She could have been getting all her annual check ups done at once. If the clinics are related her regular doctor might work at different locations on different days.

Owen and Sally were both in their early 20's and they could have potentially still been listed on their Mums card (or the card number on their doctors record hadnt been updated from when it was Marions) This is fairly unlikely though as Owen was estranged from Marion and I imagine Sally would remember if it was her.
BBM- Optometrist and dermatologist could be potential uses, but medicare is not accepted at dentist. I haven't heard of any detail as to what service it was used for, just that it was. Sally may have still been on Marions card, but each person listed has an individual identifier number. Maybe once it could have been an error, but if it was listed as used multiple times I would assume it was for Marion.
 
  • #435
Just thinking about the sale of Marion’s house. I wonder if the real estate agent and the the solicitor handling the sale were contacted at all. They may have had a snippet of info from Marion re reason for sale and future plans?
I believe Sally contacted the solicitor. Cant remember which episode, will try to find. Unless she was taking them into her confidence, she probably gave them the same story as Sally- selling up as I am planning on downsizing when I return- furniture in storage until then.

Its the bank in Ashmore where I would be focussing. I know on the fb page they were asking if anyone knew people who had worked at the Commonwealth in Ashmore, but everything seems to point back to the Colonial. Even back in the nineties- she was identified at a different bank, which we know now was the colonial. Sally didn't know she had the account, and that is where the id came from. This was the suburb where she lived- she trusted someone at that bank.
 
  • #436
When you sell a car you (and the new owner) complete a transfer of ownership/registration. It should be lodged within 14 days of the sale and written confirmation is issued to both parties from the department of motor registration. It legally indicates the date of transfer (responsiblity for infringement notices, demerit points etc).

Marion must have signed her part of the transfer of ownership form before she left and given it to Sally in order for Sally to sell the car on her behalf. Once the new owner lodged the form Marion would have been sent a letter from dept motor registration for her records.

Marion may have learnt of the sale through a person she was in contact with or via the letter from DMR. If she did get the letter she was either in contact with Lesley (mail redirection) or she had changed some of her mail to an alternative address (po box?).
When you sell a car you (and the new owner) complete a transfer of ownership/registration. It should be lodged within 14 days of the sale and written confirmation is issued to both parties from the department of motor registration. It legally indicates the date of transfer (responsiblity for infringement notices, demerit points etc).

Marion must have signed her part of the transfer of ownership form before she left and given it to Sally in order for Sally to sell the car on her behalf. Once the new owner lodged the form Marion would have been sent a letter from dept motor registration for her records.

Marion may have learnt of the sale through a person she was in contact with or via the letter from DMR. If she did get the letter she was either in contact with Lesley (mail redirection) or she had changed some of her mail to an alternative address (po box?).

Thanks. This makes more sense. I don't drive so am pretty dim to all the administration when it comes to cars! As for the timeline it did come off the lady vanishes Facebook page. I will look again tomorrow and see if I can post the specific link.
 
  • #437
This website has a lot of tips on disappearing- some of it is modern, but much of it comes from a book written in 1995. We have referenced it here before.
How To Disappear Completely – The Great Vanishing Act
It is a bit eerie how similar some of the tips are to Marion's own actions. Someone mentioned earlier that maybe Marion was ill- potentially terminally, and that impacted on her choice to walk away. Quite possibly. Maybe mentally ill- some kind of breakdown? Breakdowns were mentioned at least twice in the podcast- once when she split with Johnny Warren, according to John Econ, and once when she found out the pilot was due to marry someone else.
The timing of her disappearance is interesting for me. In episode 5, Marion's will was described. She was leaving more to Sally than to Owen, as Owen lived with his father. He was being looked after by someone else. Sally had just become engaged to Chris- she now had someone else to look after her.
 
  • #438
Maybe mentally ill- some kind of breakdown? Breakdowns were mentioned at least twice in the podcast- once when she split with Johnny Warren, according to John Econ, and once when she found out the pilot was due to marry someone else.

I’m also leaning towards this - especially since re-listening to the episode with the bank manager for Commonwealth and the other lady who remembered the procedures from back then. I don’t think there was any reason for her to take $5k out at a time. I’m pretty sure they explained she could have taken any amount out and would have had to show the same identification and gotten the same approval from a bank manager whether it was $5k or $50k. To me, that would line up with some odd behaviour from a mental breakdown. It actually strikes me as quite paranoid.
 
  • #439
Nothing on the Facebook pages (TLV or missing person marion barter). Unless they've been deleted?

They've indeed been deleted. There were quite a few derogatory comments and replies about Alison's telephone call to Fernand.
 
  • #440
I believe Sally contacted the solicitor. Cant remember which episode, will try to find. Unless she was taking them into her confidence, she probably gave them the same story as Sally- selling up as I am planning on downsizing when I return- furniture in storage until then.

Its the bank in Ashmore where I would be focussing. I know on the fb page they were asking if anyone knew people who had worked at the Commonwealth in Ashmore, but everything seems to point back to the Colonial. Even back in the nineties- she was identified at a different bank, which we know now was the colonial. Sally didn't know she had the account, and that is where the id came from. This was the suburb where she lived- she trusted someone at that bank.
Is this (Ashmore) a different account from the one the withdrawals of $5K a day were from? I'm not clear whether the withdrawals were from Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads but the account may have been held in either or neither of those places. I'm wondering how it was ascertained that the withdrawals were done over the counter (Sally thinking the teller had a peculiar expression seems a little inadequate). Could the bank have been saying that withdrawals were made from Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads accounts, without specifying where the over-the-counter transaction took place, or even whether it was instead an account-to-account transfer?

Sorry if this is very ignorant. There's no way I'm listening to multiple podcasts due to deafness.
 
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