Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[JLZ]

Um, well I was the one that posted here that Sally had confirmed she went to Wagga and that the Armidale journalist had apparently had wrong info. I’m not a “verified insider” I was just passing on information she had told me via a Facebook comment. Should I not have shared that?

I don't think it's you. There were one or two others who were apparently or represented themselves as being involved in the podcast and in direct contact with Sally. I looked up the WS name of one of them; slightly unshuffled, it was the name of one of the podcast people.

 

[alleycat13]

I don't think it's you. There were one or two others who were apparently or represented themselves as being involved in the podcast and in direct contact with Sally. I looked up the WS name of one of them; slightly unshuffled, it was the name of one of the podcast people.

Oh thank god haha! I haven’t been posting that long on Websleuths so wasn’t sure if I had done something wrong - thanks for letting me know

 

[Mel 1303]

Um, well I was the one that posted here that Sally had confirmed she went to Wagga and that the Armidale journalist had apparently had wrong info. I’m not a “verified insider” I was just passing on information she had told me via a Facebook comment. Should I not have shared that?

Sorry Alleycat13, I absolutely was not having a go at you, or anyone else really. Badly worded on my part. Even though you are new to the board, you have come with great insights and comments- please keep it up!

 

[Mel 1303]

Didn’t Sally state in one of the pod casts that the reference to Marion’s comments about been angry about the car may not have happened and that her grandfather may have been confused about a conversation Sally had had with him about the car.

Yes, but I don't get that. It wasn't just Jacks notes- it is Deidre's recollections, as well. That during identification Marion had been asked for information specific enough to convince her family that it was her. She had said that she was angry with Sally about the car. (Episode 4, 10:56) In Sally's statement to police in 2010, she says that her grandfather was told to stop looking for her in Byron Bay because she was far far away, and to tell Sally Im angry about the car.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Yes, but I don't get that. It wasn't just Jacks notes- it is Deidre's recollections, as well. That during identification Marion had been asked for information specific enough to convince her family that it was her. She had said that she was angry with Sally about the car. (Episode 4, 10:56) In Sally's statement to police in 2010, she says that her grandfather was told to stop looking for her in Byron Bay because she was far far away, and to tell Sally Im angry about the car.

Very true. And at the very least it would have to indicate that Marion herself made the call whether willingly or under coercion by someone else. Seen as it is very likely, though not 100 per cent.. another involved in her disappearance is we believe, male. Unless this is an even more complex plan and there was a 3rd party involved- perhaps a woman involved in a team effort to control or manipulate Marion, who could have spoken to authorities and pretended to be her. Outside of this, I am pretty the bank would not have allowed a male voice tell them something Marion had said. They would want to speak to Marion herself. In assuming both this and no other female involved, Marion was likely still alive at the end of October. If in fact the call even happened. But why lie? They could have just said look, customer confidentiality. We can't tell you anything. It seems strange though the police would just take the word of the bank without getting a chance to hear that call themselves if it was recorded in those days or at very least go into the bank and interview a member of staff who took the call. Then again, didn't seem that at that time they were taking Marion's family's concerns very seriously.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

I don't think it's you. There were one or two others who were apparently or represented themselves as being involved in the podcast and in direct contact with Sally. I looked up the WS name of one of them; slightly unshuffled, it was the name of one of the podcast people.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

I also confirmed Marion went to Wagga TC so I am sorry for the mix up. It has now been confirmed by a friend of Marions who also attended T. C with Marion that they went to Balmain Teachers College. Marion did teach at the Wagga Wagga demonstration school so perhaps where the confusion lay for Sally.

Comment From TLV
I have listened to your podcast from the beginning as I went to Teachers’ College with Marion & lived at Como, the next suburb to Oyster Bay where Marion lived. This is probably not helpful or relevant but just to let you know Marion went to Balmain Teachers’ College not Wagga. I knew her quite well & she visited my home numerous times. We lost touch when we began teaching.
Good luck with your search Sally, you have travelled such a long hard road & I hope with all my heart that it leads to a resolution for you.

 

[thunderwombat]

I also confirmed Marion went to Wagga TC so I am sorry for the mix up. It has now been confirmed by a friend of Marion who also attended T. C with Marion that they went to Balmain Teachers College.

Jen was it Balmain only - no transferring to Wagga or Armidale? Has Marion's C.V. been located yet?

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Wagga Wagga Teachers College has been verified by Sally.

Sorry for the confusion , I am doing by best to clarify for you wonderful Websleuths . There has been confusion re the Teachers college and I can paste this message from TLV podcast re the Teachers College

FROM TLV
I have listened to your podcast from the beginning as I went to Teachers’ College with Marion & lived at Como, the next suburb to Oyster Bay where Marion lived. This is probably not helpful or relevant but just to let you know Marion went to Balmain Teachers’ College not Wagga. I knew her quite well & she visited my home numerous times. We lost touch when we began teaching.
Good luck with your search Sally, you have travelled such a long hard road & I hope with all my heart that it leads to a resolution for you.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Jen was it Balmain only - no transferring to Wagga or Armidale? Has Marion's C.V. been located yet?

Jen was it Balmain only - no transferring to Wagga or Armidale? Has Marion's C.V. been located yet?

There is no evidence to suggest that Marion ever transferred to Wagga Wagga or Armidale. The proof has come from a lady who attended Balmain with Marion and Sally has accepted that to be correct.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Teachers College. I have again emailed the journalist who wrote the article in the Armidale Express, which has been the catalyst for all the conjecture over these past months with regard to where Marion studied.

Marion was born in 1945. https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

In 1960, to qualify as a teacher in NSW, you needed to study for two years at a teachers college, which was run by the Department of Education. I believe you had to be 15 to commence study, but for the sake of argument, I have gone back to when Marion would have been 13. If she left school, and did two years at teachers college, she would have graduated in 1960. In 1968 (the year after Marion was married, which is implied happened after graduation), there was a change in the requirements, and a student had to study for three years, instead of two, to qualify as a teacher. https://education.nsw.gov.au/about-...ols/media/documents/teachers_education_AA.pdf As a result, there is not a graduating class in 1969. Students enrolling in 1967 knew about this- they enrolled in the three year course. Again, for the sake of argument, I have included up to 1970, just in case, when Marion would have been 25 and already married and divorced. Feel free to double check (please!!), but I cannot find a Marion Wilson, Marion Warren, Marion Brown or Marion Barter in any of the Wagga Wagga teachers college graduation programmes. I guess she could have been accidently left out- which would be a huge coincidence, years later, when there is conjecture about where she studied.

Wagga Wagga Teachers College Graduation Programmes
1960 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/7e015bbbf7d8ee87188b4e49be23f744.pdf
1961 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/db6175044f750192c04f1fa9f21c7550.pdf
1962 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9cd942be988e57b6754bb6805cd75053.pdf
1963 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/f3b428aa45c5ee2ef5521f0d29ba54b1.pdf
1964 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9fe6c75897272ceb19d0618456737446.pdf
1965 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/da9527df3e35038a55934f781cef6c2e.pdf
1966 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/a353d8b78d266d9ed4c6b859ad137bd6.pdf
1967 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/029e9f57e027ade53ee77c33d9299820.pdf
1968 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/3075506d71a22cc668a033e35afa65e1.pdf
1970 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/89053699e4246bfe30811aa67f41ebcf.pdf

I am not suggesting that Marion did not train as a teacher, but there is something here not adding up.

Here is your answer, sorry for the confusion re the Teachers college .
FROM PODCAST:-
I have listened to your podcast from the beginning as I went to Teachers’ College with Marion & lived at Como, the next suburb to Oyster Bay where Marion lived. This is probably not helpful or relevant but just to let you know Marion went to Balmain Teachers’ College not Wagga. I knew her quite well & she visited my home numerous times. We lost touch when we began teaching.
Good luck with your search Sally, you have travelled such a long hard road & I hope with all my heart that it leads to a resolution for you.

 

[thunderwombat]

There is no evidence to suggest that Marion ever transferred to Wagga Wagga or Armidale. The proof has come from a lady who attended Balmain with Marion and Sally has accepted that to be correct.

Such a pity that this wasn't confirmed long ago.

Mel 1303 - this after all your hard work trying to find records!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Very true. And at the very least it would have to indicate that Marion herself made the call whether willingly or under coercion by someone else. Seen as it is very likely, though not 100 per cent.. another involved in her disappearance is we believe, male. Unless this is an even more complex plan and there was a 3rd party involved- perhaps a woman involved in a team effort to control or manipulate Marion, who could have spoken to authorities and pretended to be her. Outside of this, I am pretty the bank would not have allowed a male voice tell them something Marion had said. They would want to speak to Marion herself. In assuming both this and no other female involved, Marion was likely still alive at the end of October. If in fact the call even happened. But why lie? They could have just said look, customer confidentiality. We can't tell you anything. It seems strange though the police would just take the word of the bank without getting a chance to hear that call themselves if it was recorded in those days or at very least go into the bank and interview a member of staff who took the call. Then again, didn't seem that at that time they were taking Marion's family's concerns very seriously.

Police didnt need to speak directly to her, they had ascertained what they needed (that she wasnt in danger) from information gleaned from the bank. Bank identification is gold standard and there was nothing found to be suspect about the transactions.

When the Bank contacted Marion, she would have been asked if she had provided Sally with the account details (and what other information she had given to Sally/others). The bank needs to ascertain the extent of risk to Marion to determine what actions may be required (they cant take Sally's word that her Mum gave her the account details).
So Marion would know from this that it was her bank details Sally was using to search for her. This could why she expressed anger about the car money because it paints Sally in a fairly unflattering light (there had already been one bank person who took pity on Sally and gave info when she shouldnt) and discourages Sally from continuing that line of enquiry.
The bank would record the discussion (warn the tellers to be vigilant of third parties) but they wouldnt advise Sally, it would be left to the account holder (Marion) to contact the person wanting the information(Sally).

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I also confirmed Marion went to Wagga TC so I am sorry for the mix up. It has now been confirmed by a friend of Marions who also attended T. C with Marion that they went to Balmain Teachers College. Marion did teach at the Wagga Wagga demonstration school so perhaps where the confusion lay for Sally.

Comment From TLV
I have listened to your podcast from the beginning as I went to Teachers’ College with Marion & lived at Como, the next suburb to Oyster Bay where Marion lived. This is probably not helpful or relevant but just to let you know Marion went to Balmain Teachers’ College not Wagga. I knew her quite well & she visited my home numerous times. We lost touch when we began teaching.
Good luck with your search Sally, you have travelled such a long hard road & I hope with all my heart that it leads to a resolution for you.

Dont be hard on yourself Jenmarshnifer (or others who have posted varying locations).

This question has been raised a number of times on a variety of platforms. Clearly those platforms are monitored (because they keep deleting the comments). Ideally this should have been clarified by Sally months ago. She did say in the last episode she has regular contact with Angela (Marions college bestie) so a quick phone call would have cleared this up.

 

[Mel 1303]

I also confirmed Marion went to Wagga TC so I am sorry for the mix up. It has now been confirmed by a friend of Marions who also attended T. C with Marion that they went to Balmain Teachers College. Marion did teach at the Wagga Wagga demonstration school so perhaps where the confusion lay for Sally.

Comment From TLV
I have listened to your podcast from the beginning as I went to Teachers’ College with Marion & lived at Como, the next suburb to Oyster Bay where Marion lived. This is probably not helpful or relevant but just to let you know Marion went to Balmain Teachers’ College not Wagga. I knew her quite well & she visited my home numerous times. We lost touch when we began teaching.
Good luck with your search Sally, you have travelled such a long hard road & I hope with all my heart that it leads to a resolution for you.

Thank you for asking the question on our behalf, when many of ours were being deleted. You asked a question and delivered the answer- and for that I really am grateful. I must admit I am seriously disappointed that our questions over something that has turned out to be completely justified were deleted and ignored. The complete lack of evidence of Marion graduating from either Armidale or Wagga Wagga should have warranted a quick double check. At the end of the day, it is probably an inconsequential fact- I just hope other questions, which might lead to actual answers, haven't been deleted. For the record, I asked the questions on TLV page, not Sally's page. When you asked her a question, she may well have been unaware as to the reasons we here were asking.

 

[Mel 1303]

Here is the timeline, started by Rosewood, which I have added to and included bits from the ch 7 timeline. If you have time/interest, please add your dates/details. I will be reviewing to add my details/extras. All info is from podcast, unless detailed.
October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay


1960’s – attends Sydney teachers college, Balmain. Not yet confirmed- from fb.


Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1969- Fernand Remakel injured, stops playing rep football.

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

Early 70’s, probably 72- Marion transfers from Narwee PS to Peakhurst South PS.

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. Where in QLD? Were her parents there yet?

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.


1984 ish- Fernand divorce from first wife.


June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1994- ad in Le Courrier Australian

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

June 4th- Sally’s Engagement Patty where she saw her ex and son.

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday to sister Diedre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the orient express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she wont be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia

August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

Sept 3rd where AFP claim Marion entered a the country again.


September 13 1997- Marion visits doctor in Grafton

October 18th 1997 Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had located Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marions father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller at CBA Byron, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sallys first child born

March 6, 2002- Owen dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale. Date now change- being followed up.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marions father, dies.

2004- her money from Barclays in the uk was returned to the commonwealth as untouched funds after 7 years.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

2017- Sally wrote to Gladys Berejiklian asking for carriage to be transferred from NSW to QLD.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Here is the timeline, started by Rosewood, which I have added to and included bits from the ch 7 timeline.

Brilliant Mel 1303! Thanks for putting this together!!

 

[Mel 1303]

Brilliant Mel 1303! Thanks for putting this together!!

There is a lot more to put in. I will keep going through my notes, and if others have bits to add/amend/correct please do so!

 

[Mel 1303]

There is no evidence to suggest that Marion ever transferred to Wagga Wagga or Armidale. The proof has come from a lady who attended Balmain with Marion and Sally has accepted that to be correct.

Grrrr, those records are archived in Sydney, not online. I think it is Sydney teachers college, in Balmain? Its a bit confusing. Will have to check out next time I am in Sydney, hopefully in about a month. If someone closer has time/inclination to check, please feel free! After all the speculation, it would be so good to be able to say "Yep, she graduated from here in this year".

 

[KiwiNZ]

does anyone know what powers the Salvation Army have for locating people, can the bank give them information on a person just because someone is looking for them ?