Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Today I'm thinking more effort needs to be put into clearing Fernand's name, it's absolutely intolerable that it's gone on for this long .... the impact it's having on Marie for starters is disgraceful and needs to be rectified. Fernand filed a patent on this date, 25 July 1997 EP19970630046 .
Luxembourg is something like 7 hours drive from France for starters .... really, why would someone from Luxembourg be putting an Australian Lennox Head PO Box address in Le Courrier (1994) to meet someone from the French community or something .... it's simply too illogical, I really can't stand it. Focusing on Fernand now, it's making me crazy!!

 

[bje111]

Here is the timeline, started by Rosewood, which I have added to and included bits from the ch 7 timeline. If you have time/interest, please add your dates/details. I will be reviewing to add my details/extras. All info is from podcast, unless detailed.
October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay


1960’s – attends Sydney teachers college, Balmain. Not yet confirmed- from fb.


Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1969- Fernand Remakel injured, stops playing rep football.

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

Early 70’s, probably 72- Marion transfers from Narwee PS to Peakhurst South PS.

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. Where in QLD? Were her parents there yet?

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.


1984 ish- Fernand divorce from first wife.


June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1994- ad in Le Courrier Australian

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

June 4th- Sally’s Engagement Patty where she saw her ex and son.

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday to sister Diedre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the orient express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she wont be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia

August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

Sept 3rd where AFP claim Marion entered a the country again.


September 13 1997- Marion visits doctor in Grafton

October 18th 1997 Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had located Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marions father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller at CBA Byron, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sallys first child born

March 6, 2002- Owen dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale. Date now change- being followed up.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marions father, dies.

2004- her money from Barclays in the uk was returned to the commonwealth as untouched funds after 7 years.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

2017- Sally wrote to Gladys Berejiklian asking for carriage to be transferred from NSW to QLD.

Wow - amazing Mel1303!!!!!!! Have you sent this to Sally/TLV? I'm sure it's helpful... One thing that particularly sticks out to me:

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia
August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

who sent that postcard on 30th given passport returned on 2nd?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

does anyone know what powers the Salvation Army have for locating people, can the bank give them information on a person just because someone is looking for them ?

Thats an excellent point. I wouldnt have thought the salvos would be authorized to receive information about Marion from her banks unless they had authorisation from Marion.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Thats an excellent point. I wouldn't have thought the salvos would be authorized to receive information about Marion from her banks unless they had authorization from Marion.

I though it odd as well, I have looked at Sallys website it says "We use the latest search techniques as well as those developed over our many years of family tracing experience. Much of our work is on the phone, writing letters and emails, and researching on the internet" I find it odd that they have such power, actually I don't think they do. will keep on hunting

 

[KiwiNZ]

Today I'm thinking more effort needs to be put into clearing Fernand's name, it's absolutely intolerable that it's gone on for this long .... the impact it's having on Marie for starters is disgraceful and needs to be rectified. Fernand filed a patent on this date, 25 July 1997 EP19970630046 .
Luxembourg is something like 7 hours drive from France for starters .... really, why would someone from Luxembourg be putting an Australian Lennox Head PO Box address in Le Courrier (1994) to meet someone from the French community or something .... it's simply too illogical, I really can't stand it. Focusing on Fernand now, it's making me crazy!!

Agree I cant believe people can be so one eyed and lack the ability to put themselves in someone elses shoes. I love the way they all think that if a news crew from China turned up at their door to question them on a possible murder case that they had publicly link you to that they would all react in a hospitable manner. get real.

They also assume the Remakels are listening to the Podcast, highly likely they are not or didn't until the doorstep incident, at which point the poor guy had already been found guilty in the court of public opinion. Would they have liked to listen to a podcast about themselves casting them as the villain ?

If there is a link with the Ad and the person did away with Marion, then someone with those intentions would likely not use their real name.

 

[Mel 1303]

Agree I cant believe people can be so one eyed and lack the ability to put themselves in someone else shoes. I love the way they all think that if a news crew from China turned up at their door to question them on a possible murder case that they had publicly link you to that they would all react in a hospitable manner. get real.

They also assume the Remakels are listening to the Podcast, highly likely they are not or didn't until the doorstep incident, at which point the poor guy had already been found guilty in the court of public opinion. Would they have liked to listen to a podcast about themselves casting them as the villain ?

If there is a link with the Ad and the person did away with Marion, then someone with those intentions would likely not use their real name.

Fernand.

He is a man who may or may not have a connection with an ad, which Marion may or may not have even seen, much less answered. It is a rare name, with strong connection to Luxembourg, and there is the football connection- worth investigation (not by police, who had deemed Marion located, and as such to follow this up would be a breach of her civil rights).

So, a 70 odd year old man, European, with a different native language. Who owes the podcast nothing, but potentially could help the podcast. How best to go about getting his information? After being unable to surprise him at his home, with camera crew in tow, the team calls him. Episode 11, 19:00. Sarah, the journalist from Luxembourg has her initial call to Fernand recorded, and it is playing in the background to Brian's podcast commentary. The conversation is in Luxembourgish. Brian says there is confusion, and they have to talk to him in person, as they cant translate the documents and pictures over the phone. Why not? They have managed over the podcast? They send in two women, both younger than Fernand, one hugely nervous and far to personally invested, without, it would seem, and interview strategy (enormously irresponsible, I felt so bad for Sally), as the first obviously nervous statement is "Hello, I'm Sally. Fernand? My name is Sally. I've come from Australia, do you speak English?....I found an ad that you put in the newspaper in Australia in 1994". This is where it went really pearshaped- at the moment he felt accused. If he did write the ad, he was potentially looking for a wife, at the time where I believe he was already in a relationship with a woman who remained his partner, not his wife. So, Fernand, tell us, our cameras, your partner and the world- did you try and find an Australian fling? Why did Brian not contact him, considering the cultural differences, man to man, call him sir, or monsieur (spelling?????), invite him for a private, off the record chat about a mystery that he may possibly be able to help them with? Buy him an expensive drink, outline the story, give him a chance to talk. Give him the chance to be a hero, rather than potentially outed as involved in a woman's disappearance? When they were at the house, and Fernand wanted to end the whole encounter, Brian offered to turn off the camera. "But they refused to open the door. I leave my card and as we walk back to my car we can see Fernand in the upstairs window photographing us. He sits there, sipping tea, and clicking away until about 10 minutes later when a police car arrives carrying two officers" (23:30). So- Fernand has said he doesn't want to be interviewed, and the camera crew goes back to the car, looking at the house- and stays there. Recording him and his house. Until the police arrive. If this man had any clues to help Sally, I believe the desire for a sensationalist sound bite has ruined any change.

Also- he is right. It is rude that they record people, who they have cold called, without telling them. It is legal in Queensland, but I question the ethics. If they were in NSW, it would be illegal. I wonder what the law looks like in Luxembourg?

 

[JLZ]

It is a rare name, with strong connection to Luxembourg

Do you mean Fernand Remakel is a rare name? I wouldn't have thought Fernand was rare; Fernando is not. Also, I seem to have missed how F from the ad has been expanded to Fernand? Did the newspaper confirm that?

 

[Mel 1303]

Do you mean Fernand Remakel is a rare name? I wouldn't have thought Fernand was rare; Fernando is not. Also, I seem to have missed how F from the ad has been expanded to Fernand? Did the newspaper confirm that?

I meant Remakel is a fairly rare name. There is no evidence at all that F in the ad means Fernand. It is assumed that it might be by the podcast. There are only a few F Remakels in the world that are easily found who are in the right age group, and only one in Luxembourg. There is another man in the US who has the same initials in that age group. There could well be numerous more with a much smaller digital footprint.

 

[JLZ]

I meant Remakel is a fairly rare name. There is no evidence at all that F in the ad means Fernand. It is assumed that it might be by the podcast. There are only a few F Remakels in the world that are easily found who are in the right age group, and only one in Luxembourg. There is another man in the US who has the same initials in that age group. There could well be numerous more with a much smaller digital footprint.

Thank you.

Deleted the rest. I'll think again.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Fernand.

He is a man who may or may not have a connection with an ad, which Marion may or may not have even seen, much less answered. It is a rare name, with strong connection to Luxembourg, and there is the football connection- worth investigation (not by police, who had deemed Marion located, and as such to follow this up would be a breach of her civil rights).

So, a 70 odd year old man, European, with a different native language. Who owes the podcast nothing, but potentially could help the podcast. How best to go about getting his information? After being unable to surprise him at his home, with camera crew in tow, the team calls him. Episode 11, 19:00. Sarah, the journalist from Luxembourg has her initial call to Fernand recorded, and it is playing in the background to Brian's podcast commentary. The conversation is in Luxembourgish. Brian says there is confusion, and they have to talk to him in person, as they cant translate the documents and pictures over the phone. Why not? They have managed over the podcast? They send in two women, both younger than Fernand, one hugely nervous and far to personally invested, without, it would seem, and interview strategy (enormously irresponsible, I felt so bad for Sally), as the first obviously nervous statement is "Hello, I'm Sally. Fernand? My name is Sally. I've come from Australia, do you speak English?....I found an ad that you put in the newspaper in Australia in 1994". This is where it went really pearshaped- at the moment he felt accused. If he did write the ad, he was potentially looking for a wife, at the time where I believe he was already in a relationship with a woman who remained his partner, not his wife. So, Fernand, tell us, our cameras, your partner and the world- did you try and find an Australian fling? Why did Brian not contact him, considering the cultural differences, man to man, call him sir, or monsieur (spelling?????), invite him for a private, off the record chat about a mystery that he may possibly be able to help them with? Buy him an expensive drink, outline the story, give him a chance to talk. Give him the chance to be a hero, rather than potentially outed as involved in a woman's disappearance? When they were at the house, and Fernand wanted to end the whole encounter, Brian offered to turn off the camera. "But they refused to open the door. I leave my card and as we walk back to my car we can see Fernand in the upstairs window photographing us. He sits there, sipping tea, and clicking away until about 10 minutes later when a police car arrives carrying two officers" (23:30). So- Fernand has said he doesn't want to be interviewed, and the camera crew goes back to the car, looking at the house- and stays there. Recording him and his house. Until the police arrive. If this man had any clues to help Sally, I believe the desire for a sensationalist sound bite has ruined any change.

Also- he is right. It is rude that they record people, who they have cold called, without telling them. It is legal in Queensland, but I question the ethics. If they were in NSW, it would be illegal. I wonder what the law looks like in Luxembourg?

Agree Brian should have handled it not Sally, it was all for show. Either their investigative journalism skills are lacking or they are more interested in the podcast ratings. I cant actually believe how badly they have handled this and then defend their actions, those in the cheap seats are lapping this up, some of them on the facebook page are like a bunch of vultures and seriously lack common sense.

It is Sally I feel for, I don't doubt she has got help and info from all of this publicity that she would not have otherwise which is great, but it does not excuse Brian and Alison for some of their really tacky work.

 

[JLZ]

Where did the information about the Medicare card not having been used after 1997 come from? The privacy of Medicare history is supposed to be strictly guarded. And it's not just a question of one card and getting another in a new name or even a replacement in the same name. The whole history should be linked through the number and kept on a database, certainly as far back as the mid 1990s. A Medicare number is essentially an Australian ID card.

If Medicare hasn't been used and the passport hasn't left Australia again, that seems to indicate that Marion/Florabella is dead. Has Sally attempted to apply for an inquest?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Today I'm thinking more effort needs to be put into clearing Fernand's name, it's absolutely intolerable that it's gone on for this long .... the impact it's having on Marie for starters is disgraceful and needs to be rectified. Fernand filed a patent on this date, 25 July 1997 EP19970630046 .
Luxembourg is something like 7 hours drive from France for starters .... really, why would someone from Luxembourg be putting an Australian Lennox Head PO Box address in Le Courrier (1994) to meet someone from the French community or something .... it's simply too illogical, I really can't stand it. Focusing on Fernand now, it's making me crazy!!

Same itsapuzzle!
Just because there are three things (the Ad, Ferdinand and Marion) located under the same rare name does not mean those things are related.

Ron Iddles said the answer is usually in the file - they are more likely to discover something of importance by looking at Marion's known life. This Fernand stuff is baseless sensationalism.

An interesting comment on TLV Facebook page. I'm not sure how easy it is to gain access to this information.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

If Medicare hasn't been used and the passport hasn't left Australia again, that seems to indicate that Marion/Florabella is dead. Has Sally attempted to apply for an inquest?

Not necessarily. You can visit a doctor without using your Medicare card. It just costs more.

From memory i think the Medicare info came from police.

Sally has requested an inquest. The coroner is awaiting the police to submit a brief of evidence so they can make a decision.

 

[Garyb]

Agree Brian should have handled it not Sally, it was all for show. Either their investigative journalism skills are lacking or they are more interested in the podcast ratings. I cant actually believe how badly they have handled this and then defend their actions, those in the cheap seats are lapping this up, some of them on the facebook page are like a bunch of vultures and seriously lack common sense.

It is Sally I feel for, I don't doubt she has got help and info from all of this publicity that she would not have otherwise which is great, but it does not excuse Brian and Alison for some of their really tacky work.

I love your expression "those in the cheap seats" brilliant description of many on the Facebook page. They are like sheep mindlessly believing all they are told.
As i have said before i think there is something fishy about a lot of the information being put out there as facts on the podcast.
Brian and Alisons tactics are appalling on occasions.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

It is Sally I feel for, I don't doubt she has got help and info from all of this publicity that she would not have otherwise which is great, but it does not excuse Brian and Alison for some of their really tacky work.

Me too KiwiNZ. All this publicity, but at what cost? The podcast are burning an awful lot of Sally's bridges. Once channel 7 run out of money or listener number drop what then for her?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Same itsapuzzle!
Just because there are three things (the Ad, Ferdinand and Marion) located under the same rare name does not mean those things are related.

Ron Iddles said the answer is usually in the file - they are more likely to discover something of importance by looking at Marion's known life. This Fernand stuff is baseless sensationalism.

An interesting comment on TLV Facebook page. I'm not sure how easy it is to gain access to this information.

I am presuming that the number on the ad, would have linked to some sort of messaging service, run by Le Courier and related to the ad? I am not sure how much information would be given if the 1994 details for that number were accessed. It may say what phone company runs the line, may say it is registered under a business (if still belonging to Le Courier - assuming that column still exists!). You are right it probably worth checking out though.

I was also wondering about the P.O box address. Even if it no longr exists, what details need to be given when someone applies for a P.O box address and could records from 1994 be accessed by the police if they requested it? Would whoever ran the post office box service, keep records for that long? (Sorry , extremely clueless as to how all those things work!)

I think the phone number and p.o box are just as imporant as eachother to find records on. I also wonder if through a messaging service, records could be kept of numbers or names of those who responded to ads? Maybe this would come under data protection am guessing and not information if recorded at the time, was able to be kept. However, am guessing when it comes to safety- those who placed ads and those who responded to them - their details would be equally important to ensure safety. The paper may have had a be vigilant (we take no responsibility) meet at your own risk policy and simply provide a service to find a partner- but you never know!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I am presuming that the number on the ad, would have linked to some sort of messaging service, run by Le Courier and related to the ad? I am not sure how much information would be given if the 1994 details for that number were accessed. It may say what phone company runs the line, may say it is registered under a business (if still belonging to Le Courier - assuming that column still exists!). You are right it probably worth checking out though.

I was also wondering about the P.O box address. Even if it no longr exists, what details need to be given when someone applies for a P.O box address and could records from 1994 be accessed by the police if they requested it? Would whoever ran the post office box service, keep records for that long? (Sorry , extremely clueless as to how all those things work!)

I think the phone number and p.o box are just as imporant as eachother to find records on. I also wonder if through a messaging service, records could be kept of numbers or names of those who responded to ads? Maybe this would come under data protection am guessing and not information if recorded at the time, was able to be kept. However, am guessing when it comes to safety- those who placed ads and those who responded to them - their details would be equally important to ensure safety. The paper may have had a be vigilant (we take no responsibility) meet at your own risk policy and simply provide a service to find a partner- but you never know!

Good points. I've wondered too if perhaps the po box addresses and phone numbers belonged to the newspaper and that in paying for the ad the voicemail/post service was included for a period of time. However when they interviewed the guy (editor maybe?) from the le courier magazine he did not mention anything about that - which I thought he would do if that was the case because the phone number/po box has been a central question.
Do we know if the ad appeared in an actual 'lonely hearts' page in the newspaper or if it just appeared with the classified ads?

 

[JLZ]

Not necessarily. You can visit a doctor without using your Medicare card. It just costs more.

From memory i think the Medicare info came from police.

Sally has requested an inquest. The coroner is awaiting the police to submit a brief of evidence so they can make a decision.

It would cost a hell of a lot more over time not to utilize Medicare entitlements, whether by presenting the card or claiming a refund afterwards. Marion was of an age to be needing increasing health care services. The information that she was claiming wouldn't have been available to her family (as opposed to police) and she could have no reason for not claiming unless she was faking dead. She hasn't staged an accident; if she wanted to be thought dead she's been very patient about it.

The only thing I wonder about is whether she had eligibility on different numbers, associated with previous partners, before the system was fully computerized and then somehow they escaped being linked while remaining operational.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Good points. I've wondered too if perhaps the po box addresses and phone numbers belonged to the newspaper and that in paying for the ad the voicemail/post service was included for a period of time. However when they interviewed the guy (editor maybe?) from the le courier magazine he did not mention anything about that - which I thought he would do if that was the case because the phone number/po box has been a central question.
Do we know if the ad appeared in an actual 'lonely hearts' page in the newspaper or if it just appeared with the classified ads?

Oh, I never knew they had interviewed someone from Le Courier I must have missed that. Do you know what episode that was in?

I have heard it mentioned an F Remakel put an ad in a "lonely hearts column" in 1994, but it has never been clear whether this was actually the name of the column or a more general term being used by the podcast to refer to a personals ad. That makes more sense that the po box was possibly set up specifically as response to the ad and not a more general Post office box for this individual. I wonder if there would be any way to appeal or find out about responses to Le Couriers column at that time. It was not even clear from the ad if he only wanted Australian responses, or was open to responses from anywhere the paper distributed to. The chances are most ad responses would have been in Australia and from someone who could speak fluent French. Are there particular areas of Australia with a large population of French natives , or those who could speak it that are not a million miles from Lennox Head? I wonder if there is any way to find out where in Australia the majority of subscribers to the paper came from . Was it a popular paper with females of F. Reamkel's age? Someone, somewhere will have seen the ad and possibly even responded and met this individual. If so, they could possibly also rule out Fernand in Luxembourg, if they could remember details about who they met and what he was like.

 

[Meligator]

Today I'm thinking more effort needs to be put into clearing Fernand's name, it's absolutely intolerable that it's gone on for this long .... the impact it's having on Marie for starters is disgraceful and needs to be rectified. Fernand filed a patent on this date, 25 July 1997 EP19970630046 .
Luxembourg is something like 7 hours drive from France for starters .... really, why would someone from Luxembourg be putting an Australian Lennox Head PO Box address in Le Courrier (1994) to meet someone from the French community or something .... it's simply too illogical, I really can't stand it. Focusing on Fernand now, it's making me crazy!!

Fernand aside, Marion stated on her arrival card that she was from Luxembourg, which fits with the Remakel name that she chose. There must be some reason she wanted to connect her new identity with Luxembourg. I think Sally (or someone from the podcast) mentioned that Marion loved the Netherlands--I wonder if Marion had ever traveled to Luxembourg before (maybe on a European trip that included Netherlands)?