Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[vivienbee]

Yes I "think" the friend did offer.
My guess is that she was travelling with someone that she didn't want anyone she knew finding out about.

Or maybe she wasn't flying to where she said she was.

Is this friend speaking at the inquest? Or did she pass away? I can't remember what Sally said in the podcast.
This friend always strikes me as the most intriguing point of info in the whole case to be honest, if what I'm thinking is correct and it's the same friend that she stayed with in the days before. (I am so sorry if this is not accurate, I listened to the podcast last year and I need to relisten.)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It was Lesley Loveday who drove her to the bus stop. I think she was alive in 2019 because there was something in the podcast about speaking to her then.

This friend always strikes me as the most intriguing point of info in the whole case to be honest, if what I'm thinking is correct and it's the same friend that she stayed with in the days before. (I am so sorry if this is not accurate, I listened to the podcast last year and I need to relisten.)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The Lady Vanishes: The timeline of Marion Barter's disappearance

June 23: Marion leaves for Australia for the UK via Tokyo. Lesley drives Marion to the bus station in Southport to go to the airport and is the last known person to see her.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

From a story in 2019


The Lady Vanishes: Marion Barter mystery deepens after two clues left by strangers

Leydon is desperate to find out what has happened to her mother and recently tried to speak with her former flatmate, Lesley Loveday.
However Loveday, through NSW Police, has made it clear she doesn’t want to talk to anybody about Barter, including Leydon.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes, Lesley is a witness at the inquest.

Marion stayed with Lesley for about one month, so from around 21 May to 22 June 1997.

Some timelines floating the webs say Marion left on the 23 June, but it's been confirmed by inquest that it was the 22 June 1997. It's also the date stamped on Marion's outgoing passenger card.

Two interesting things happened during this time:

• One night, Sally called Marion at Lesley’s, but Marion told Lesley she was staying at Sally’s. Neither saw Marion that night and don't know where she spent the night.
• Another night, Marion got back very late but told Lesley she locked her keys in her car.

For reasons we don't yet understand, Marion did not want to reveal who she was with. Same with 'Arts Centre Man' incident.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Q: If Marion was with a conman, what bonkers story did he tell Marion on why he needed to remain a secret? Many conman stories I've seen online use the same tactic...

Things like... I'm a Secret Agent and can't be seen because I did the right thing and revealed some bad internal Agency behaviour and now there's a bounty on my head. Or, I had to report my former business partner for fraud and now he's mad and trying to kill me.

It's also why they tell their victims they need to leave the country immediately and why they might have multiple IDs.

It sounds insane to us, but there's always a sob story about how they (the conman) is a victim, and they go to great lengths to try to 'prove' it's real.

Sometimes the conman convinces their victim that they are in grave danger and need to leave. It's possible Marion was made to believe TSS was coming after her.

Mark Acklom is an example of a conman claiming he was a British spy. Thierry Tilly is a conman that made an aristocratic French family hide for years because he convinced them bad people were trying to kill them.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

As for Marion's family and friends that were reluctant to speak about it, I don't entirely blame them.

For starters, we don't know if they were threatened or intimidated in any way.

There's also the fact that people, especially older generations, are taught to trust law enforcement.

Up until this week, LA were adamant that Marion disappeared willingly. Who knew a senior policeman of 20 years would 'not know how to do missing persons'? Even the Salvation Army said it. Who's to disagree with Salvos?

Plus, it was evident that Marion kept a lot of secrets leading up to her disappearance. BIG secrets.

It must be extremely painful to learn that a close friend and loved one concealed such things. I'd be heartbroken.

And finally, no family is perfect, so it takes a great deal of courage to expose it all for the world, and websleuths, to scrutinise Some people are very private and just can't do it.

So yeah, I can't blame them but I'm glad Sally kept pushing. I hope the rift it caused can begin to heal now.

 

[Loxoli]

The behaviour of Lesley Loveday and Marion’s sisters has always been a red flag for me. This is speculation, but I think it’s still possible that they have more information than Sally and LE. Their behaviour is so unexpected from close family and a close friend of a missing person. It does make you wonder. All JMO and speculative.

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

The situation with the suitcases always interested me. If she did actually leave some of them at Heathrow, presumably they were items that she didn't need urgently, in which case why take them at all? For someone intending to travel around Europe, it seems odd that you would pack a cumbersome amount of items. Also, if it was not actually Marion who travelled back on her passport, what happened to her luggage? Had she picked it up by the point and the perpetrator simply disposed of 4 large suitcases somehow without raising any suspicion?
Was the luggage left unclaimed at the airport? I'm just firing out thoughts but I have so many questions on this one detail alone.
Surely, if she travelled with her friend in her car to the bus stop and was able to fit the suitcases in the car on that occasion, even a smaller hire car with only one person in it would provide more than enough room for them?
If anyone has any thoughts/clarification on this please let me know.

i was wondering the samw thing why take so much luggage? however also remember she said she may end up staying in the UK so that could possibly be why she packed so much

 

[JLZ]

Two thoughts about the suitcases being left at Heathrow. One is that Marion was short-term waiting in Kent for someone with the expectation of moving to Luxembourg. Most of the luggage wasn't for unpacking before the move. The other is that a romance scam is sometimes also a smuggling scam. She might have been told to leave the luggage and then smuggled goods could be either removed or put in place.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Here is the marriage certificate for the 7 July 1997

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

If anyone can find these two with an online footprint confirming their actual existence I would be very interested to know.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I have bit the bullet and ordered the certificate , just letting people know to save them the expense of more than one person ordering. It’s a 30 to 35 day wait though.

Sorry no need I have now attached it.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Thanks Lord Peter! The first thing I noticed is that Heide's handwriting/signature does not look like Marion's and is from a left hander. But who knows? I like the way you were thinking

Here is the marriage certificate for the 7 July 1997

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Just one other thing relating to the Jungblut name. On FB there is a Heidemarie Jungbluth. Whilst some might say she is too young there is more than just a passing resemblance. Just another of those strange coincidences.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Thanks Lord Peter! The first thing I noticed is that Heide's handwriting/signature does not look like Marion's and is from a left hander. But who knows? I like the way you were thinking

Thank you. You would think with the professions they were in as shown on the marriage certificate it would be easy to find them online (either in the UK or Germany). It’s anything but and I still feel there is something more to this. The address shown on the marriage certificate was not theirs.

 

[vivienbee]

Yes, Lesley is a witness at the inquest.

Marion stayed with Lesley for about one month, so from around 21 May to 22 June 1997.

Some timelines floating the webs say Marion left on the 23 June, but it's been confirmed by inquest that it was the 22 June 1997. It's also the date stamped on Marion's outgoing passenger card.

Two interesting things happened during this time:

• One night, Sally called Marion at Lesley’s, but Marion told Lesley she was staying at Sally’s. Neither saw Marion that night and don't know where she spent the night.
• Another night, Marion got back very late but told Lesley she locked her keys in her car.

For reasons we don't yet understand, Marion did not want to reveal who she was with. Same with 'Arts Centre Man' incident.

Thank you, and Tootsie, for recapping for me! I'd be really interested to hear from Lesley what reason Marion gave for not wanting to be taken directly to the airport, among other things.
I can understand her reluctance to speak to anyone, to a point, but unless she has further information that she doesn't think Marion would want shared then it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't talk to Sally so many years later, especially given the potential that foul play occurred in some capacity.
Maybe she really just doesn't know anything and wants to wash her hands of it, but if my friend vanished in similar circumstances I would want to help in any way that I could, even if that was just repeating the same info.

 

[vivienbee]

Are there transcripts of the podcasts online anywhere? If not, would anyone find it helpful for me to transcribe them?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I imagine that all Lesley Loveday wanted was to live a life that she took for granted before. Just a normal private life, like most people live.
All she did was give a friend a lift to a bus terminal. Yet over the years every so often she has been hounded by probably well meaning people who seem to not accept that she doesn't know more than she has already said.
She sees her name in news stories. She is tracked down numerous times by people hoping she can reveal more about the friend who she gave the lift to.

She sees her name being discussed in various forums and news articles. Some of which say she must know more than she has told anyone and that perhaps she is keeping her friends secret. Finally as pressure mounts on her, she announces via police that she isn't interested in talking to anyone, not even the family.

That of course, backfires, because now, surely she must be hiding something.

I can imagine that since the case has become more well known, not only are the podcast people and her friends family after her, but a growing army of amateur sleuths trying to track her down and grill her. She never knows when someone will turn up at her house or work or try to make contact via other methods.

And all because she once gave a lift to a friend.

 

[vivienbee]

I imagine that all Lesley Loveday wanted was to live a life that she took for granted before. Just a normal private life, like most people live.
All she did was give a friend a lift to a bus terminal. Yet over the years every so often she has been hounded by probably well meaning people who seem to not accept that she doesn't know more than she has already said.
She sees her name in news stories. She is tracked down numerous times by people hoping she can reveal more about the friend who she gave the lift to.

She sees her name being discussed in various forums and news articles. Some of which say she must know more than she has told anyone and that perhaps she is keeping her friends secret. Finally as pressure mounts on her, she announces via police that she isn't interested in talking to anyone, not even the family.

That of course, backfires, because now, surely she must be hiding something.

I can imagine that since the case has become more well known, not only are the podcast people and her friends family after her, but a growing army of amateur sleuths trying to track her down and grill her. She never knows when someone will turn up at her house or work or try to make contact via other methods.

And all because she once gave a lift to a friend.

I completely take your point, and I'm not saying that she does know more than she has said at all. I think it was irresponsible to release her name to the public if she is indeed being harassed and hounded.
It's not the lift that is particularly pertinent to me, it's the fact that Marion stayed with her in the month prior to her disappearance, that's all.
She may know absolutely nothing. I didn't realise that she was being pestered by the public etc. I was just thinking aloud but I'll keep any comments regarding her to myself from now on.
[Edit: I just made a change to this because it sounded like I meant all comments in general.]