Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

[SaintGertrude]

[QUOTE On top of this if she did possibly have a fake passport as KiwiNZ has thought perhaps possible then that would be a serious matter if ever found depending on the circumstances.

I am not sure I actually think this is the case, that she assumed yet another identity, I was just responding to Curiosity cats question - The main question I have is, if Marion is still alive, HOW might she gone about obtaining another identity. Any ideas?

Graves stone names is not an uncommon way for someone to obtain a new identity, neither is fake passports.

[/QUOTE]
I read a true story ages ago about a woman who remained hidden at her boyfriends and only went out in the dark. Marion could be a kept woman and given money and a place to live by a person she is in a relationship with. The only thing is what about any dentist or doctors visits needed. At her age now she must have needed some kind of visits to these and would need ID.

 

[SaintGertrude]

This is the story I mean about how to disappear and still be in plain sight. Natasha Ryan - Wikipedia

 

[sunnynz]

It would be very odd for a person to go to those lengths as any adult can start a new life away from family and friends.
It still makes me wonder in all of this about a certain school and if Marion knew too much about some of the alleged goings on. In this I mean that she may have known of something not having any involvement herself. Depending on the circumstances she could land into a spot of trouble if she is ever found as we are hearing with recent news in Australia concerning a different case. On top of this if she did possibly have a fake passport as KiwiNZ has thought perhaps possible then that would be a serious matter if ever found depending on the circumstances.

The gravestone thing was super common in pre-internet days! Read up on the Lori Kennedy case - very interesting

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Has anyone considered whether the Florabella name is a mix of Florence Isabella forenames?

 

[Meligator]

I think the gravestone/passport thing is very likely (or she connected with someone overseas who was able to get her a different passport/identity).

One thing that makes me think she might be alive is that no one has come across any of her things. She packed suitcases, had passport/identification, had storage container. If she were murdered or committed suicide, then wouldn’t someone have come across some of her belongings at some point?

Because her passport never left AU, it’s possible she never left AU again—but at this point, with all the attention from the podcast—seems like someone would have recognized seeing her at some point in over 20 years. So, that leave her living abroad under a different identity.

If she left using a foreign passport that she acquired some (fraudulently) overseas, would that tigger any flags at customs (someone leaving AU who customs doesn’t have record arriving in AU)? If that is problematic (not sure), then the gravesite passport would be better bet. That seems to be a commonly described procedure for getting a new identity (something she could have learned about in books etc).

That would also explain why she needed to return as Florabella & not the new identity (because there would have been no records of the new gravesite identity having ever left AU). TBH I can’t actually figure out the purpose of the Florabella identity. If she was only going to use it to fly too and from EU, then why not just go as Marion?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I think the gravestone/passport thing is very likely (or she connected with someone overseas who was able to get her a different passport/identity).

One thing that makes me think she might be alive is that no one has come across any of her things. She packed suitcases, had passport/identification, had storage container. If she were murdered or committed suicide, then wouldn’t someone have come across some of her belongings at some point?

Because her passport never left AU, it’s possible she never left AU again—but at this point, with all the attention from the podcast—seems like someone would have recognized seeing her at some point in over 20 years. So, that leave her living abroad under a different identity.

If she left using a foreign passport that she acquired some (fraudulently) overseas, would that tigger any flags at customs (someone leaving AU who customs doesn’t have record arriving in AU)? If that is problematic (not sure), then the gravesite passport would be better bet. That seems to be a commonly described procedure for getting a new identity (something she could have learned about in books etc).

That would also explain why she needed to return as Florabella & not the new identity (because there would have been no records of the new gravesite identity having ever left AU). TBH I can’t actually figure out the purpose of the Florabella identity. If she was only going to use it to fly too and from EU, then why not just go as Marion?

I think we think alike lol

IMO if she was murdered for none of her stuff to be found she would have had to be living in a house with someone and her container forwarded to the address, anything else, like a motel, renting a home on her own would have set off some alarm if her belonging were found left behind.

would be interested to know if you had to give an alternative contact when you signed up for a storage container.

Also if her initial intensions were to stay only 8 days as state on her card, would she have bought all of her things back with her ? for an 8 day stay ? I cant see any reason why she would lie on the card about the days she was returning for (although Gary S disagrees in 6. Byron @18 mins ) and if the withdrawals from her account started after the 8 days, I would think its likely that the money was not the reason she originally came back. If you only came back for the money would you not have gone straight to the bank ? would be helpful if we knew what date she started removing money.

Suicided is not on my list of options - her stuff would have been found IMO

 

[Laughing]

The gravestone thing was super common in pre-internet days! Read up on the Lori Kennedy case - very interesting

Yes, that one still intrigues me:

Lori Ruff Identified as Kimberly McLean of PA

Her daughter is a young teenager now....

This guy apparently used a tombstone or local coverage of a child's odd death:

IN - IN - Paul Raymond Harrod, adult, may have been using false identity, Hamilton County, 27 Nov 1992


Both interesting cases, please have a look at not-Paul Raymond Harris if you have time.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[TootsieFootsie]

And wouldn't her name be somewhere on some of her belongings.

Maybe she had some of her valuables engraved with her name. That is something that is recommended in case of theft.
Yes and where are her personal things, like passort and ID..
Unless someone burned the lot.
If she chose to disappear, either she is still alive, and in possession of her belongings. It's when a person dies that whover goes through the residence sometimes finds something that explains a puzzle.
Perhaps she had a mental breakdown and actually forgot who she was and took on a different persona.
Maybe she had what they call now, early onset dementia, and thought something was happening to her memory. Maybe that's why she said things about standing under a light to remember someone, and other things she said about remembering people.
She may have been frightened that her memory was going. I had a friend go through this and it was awful seeing her realising that her memory was going

Maybe she came up with a different name and somehow got a whole new passport.

I don't believe she is alive though, sadly. I hope one day Sally and family do find out what happened.

One thing that makes me think she might be alive is that no one has come across any of her things. She packed suitcases, had passport/identification, had storage container. If she were murdered or committed suicide, then wouldn’t someone have come across some of her belongings at some point?

 

[KiwiNZ]

This one is interesting, using a dead persons identity to start a new life

 

[Itsapuzzle]

And wouldn't her name be somewhere on some of her belongings.

Maybe she had some of her valuables engraved with her name. That is something that is recommended in case of theft.
Yes and where are her personal things, like passort and ID..
Unless someone burned the lot.
If she chose to disappear, either she is still alive, and in possession of her belongings. It's when a person dies that whover goes through the residence sometimes finds something that explains a puzzle.
Perhaps she had a mental breakdown and actually forgot who she was and took on a different persona.
Maybe she had what they call now, early onset dementia, and thought something was happening to her memory. Maybe that's why she said things about standing under a light to remember someone, and other things she said about remembering people.
She may have been frightened that her memory was going. I had a friend go through this and it was awful seeing her realising that her memory was going

Maybe she came up with a different name and somehow got a whole new passport.

I don't believe she is alive though, sadly. I hope one day Sally and family do find out what happened.

That's a really interesting theory, Tootsie, hadn't thought of that before. Most excellent possibility.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

This one is interesting, using a dead persons identity to start a new life

Absolutely fascinating, hey!!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Okay, so I'm still intrigued with the LA library find ... am thinking now it wasn't a magazine - Bryan says "publication", so it's either a journal or a book, hey ...... have started looking in issuu, which is pretty interesting and completely wonderful, to say the least. Waldorf/Steiner had Journal editions, and they list conferences and seminars in them for the year ..... can anyone find an issue from 1997 or 1998 so we can check 'em out? Was there anything going on re teaching conferences in the Uk at the time Marion was there? The weekend beckons, so will look then as I will be in Covid lockdown and unable to do a single thing but housework
"Journal for Waldorf" – issuu Search
PS: Or if anyone knows what was found in the LA library, please, fill us in. Confidentiality guaranteed, of course.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

A publication is anything that is published, including magazines. It could also have been a newspaper, perhaps one that dealt with match making, or a paper newsletter from some club, like a family history group. I used to get one of those. Some of those had a not exactly paperback cover, but a paper cover, a bit thicker than the inside pages.

Also some schools used to send out those type of publications. Maybe it was a school one with a photo of a teacher who looked like Marion ?

 

[Curiosity Cat]

The postcard postmarked Tonbridge on the 7 Aug 97 Marion states she could have had a relief job at a local village school. A little odd as most schools Summer holidays run from July to September. How did she find out about this job? Did she have an interview? Who offered it to her?

I wonder what entitlement Marion would have had to work in the UK ????

 

[KiwiNZ]

A publication is anything that is published, including magazines. It could also have been a newspaper, perhaps one that dealt with match making, or a paper newsletter from some club, like a family history group. I used to get one of those. Some of those had a not exactly paperback cover, but a paper cover, a bit thicker than the inside pages.

Also some schools used to send out those type of publications. Maybe it was a school one with a photo of a teacher who looked like Marion ?

I have asked on the facebook page for an update on this lead, will let you know if they respond.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I wonder what entitlement Marion would have had to work in the UK ????

pretty strange - she had no entitlement to work in the UK, unless she had actually applied for a visa to work, maybe she did ?

But if I remember correctly - Sally had her CV that she would send on if needed - as Marion knew you couldn't enter the UK with anything on you that may suggest you were there to work. So she must have done some enquiring to know this.

I will go back over the podcast and try and find where they speak about this .. incase I dreamt it lol

 

[KiwiNZ]

Answer to my facebook question re: the LA library lead

this was checked out, unfortunately it wasn't able to help Sally's case.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes I'm still not sure where I heard, or read that it didn't pan out.
I would still want to know why someone thought it did in the first place though.

Thanks for checking !

Answer to my facebook question re: the LA library lead

this was checked out, unfortunately it wasn't able to help Sally's case.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Answer to my facebook question re: the LA library lead

this was checked out, unfortunately it wasn't able to help Sally's case.

Oh wow, good on ya KiwiNZ, brilliant - so now we know it led to nowhere ..... h'mm, are they going to let everyone know what the lead was, what the publication was .... err, be good and fair if they did, I reckon. MOO

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I wonder what entitlement Marion would have had to work in the UK ????

The postcard postmarked Tonbridge on the 7 Aug 97 Marion states she could have had a relief job at a local village school. A little odd as most schools Summer holidays run from July to September. How did she find out about this job? Did she have an interview? Who offered it to her?

This is a great point @Curiosity Cat, @Lord Peter Flimsy .... this has to mean Marion was mixing with teachers over there ..... tourists walking around in different parts of the world don't get offered random teaching jobs, do they?