Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[KiwiNZ]

Gawd… I need a translator! So he was 24? Hmm that means before 1970? Correct? That’s very interesting as I thought Mrs D mentioned it during inquest.. that he had died. Are we sure this is the right FD? Sorry I can type every word to translate that much text it will send me bonkers

KBR - Belgicapress

Freddy David - Tournai - 7 june 1942 - 12 month prison

Swindler condemns the 19th chanbre presidee by M Versele, A condemned Feddy David did not turn on June 7, 1942, domiciled queen's square, a schaerbeek, to 12 months in prison for having committed fraud in the prejudice of a series of victims and even having also committed at least six forgeries in writing the various civil parties who were constituted against the debtor obtained damages of interest for a total of 31000

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

The photo on the right is of WW, not IK.

Really? Maybe that’s why I think it looks like a man

 

[Zanzibar]

did anyone find the passenger cards for the walker family leaving for Europe on the "Russian ship" in 1970(?) would love to know the name of the ship so we can see the route it took

They’re in the NAA file, they left on the Shota Rustaveli. I posted earlier with the page reference in the NAA file but am on my phone atm and that’s behind me without the laptop. Hope that helps.

edit to add: the ship was taking the Sydney, NZ, Tahiti, Panama Canal route around this time but I was unable to find details on this specific sailing.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Off topic but just an FYI ...

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[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

11 May 1946 - IK birth date

13 December 1968 - Ilona residence at 155 Croussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5 – her parents address
IK is applying for migration to Australia - states on her application – no fiancée and parents applying on separate application -

STATES she knows no one in Aust. NO job. NO ENGLISH.
She doesn't need to worry about this as she has come to help Wonka.
(Is there something here in fraudulent activities that WW and IK have come to Aust to set up?)
( RENOV PUBS ), BE0858473358, Financiële informatie - Infobel België – Telefoongids
rue des Francs, 46
1040 Etterbeek
Belgique
(the same address given on IK and WW entry forms )

March 1969 - A MJR document shows Individual requests and complaints received from people within Australia… NAA file closed

16 April 1969 - To depart Belgium– defers until 19 May

10 May 1969 - IK and real W WOUTERS '"marriage'" in Brussels Belgium (12 days before departure to Australia)

22 May 1969 - IK arrives Aus ( already pregnant)

24 May 1969 – 2 DAYS LATER - real WW arrives

18 Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby

15 Feb 1970 – ( 9 months later) real WW departure from Australia - I have a belief that they travelled back separately because he was travelling with something illegal

8 May 1970 – baby leaves Aust ( on her own it seems...…)

10 May 1970 – IK leaves Australia - 1st wedding anniversary to WW...And ONE DAY PRIOR TO HER 24th BIRTHDAY

1970 Ilona -Age 23 years- married in Budapest Hungary to MJReid

Between leaving Australia 10 May 1970 and 11 May 1970 (24th birthday) , despite having a 4 month old baby, she is suddenly in Hungary getting married to MJR......??? IMPOSSIBLE!

There is no actual certified marriage to be found - (this is only info gathered from her death cert)

I think the real WW has changed his name to MJR prior to leaving for Aust in case he needed it......

They then married sometime after returning from Australia in the later part of 1970, had another child and eventually she leaves him and returns to Australia.

1970 lost passport- has new passport under FD (the real FD died in 1963) coming into Aust 1971 with DW.
Hello Willy D C.

I believe this is the start of Willy D C new start as "DeHedervary" and his continued association with the real Willy Wonkas.

19 Jan 1970 – DW & family leave for overseas ONE DAY after baby Wouters is born

Also the writings on IK and WW passenger cards in 1969 are interesting…..


IMO MOO JMO

It’s certainly possible @mishy66 you’ve been busy that’s for sure.
So do you think the real WW applied for citizenship when arriving to be with IK?
The other WDC is the one who obtained the citizenship?
Clearly one of them was using FD documentation not only through passport in and out of OZ but also in Belgium for Fraud after the real FD was deceased.
Which W do you think that was? WW or WDC?
Or potentially have both been sharing the load of Jail /theft and both assisting each other?
Definitely there’s times it appears 1 person is in two places. And during inquest there were a couple of times RB appeared confused especially the baby birth certificate…and his signature on registration.

 

[mishy66]

For comparison, (not too clear on one photo) these are two passport photos of IK taken around the same time. They look like completely different people, IMO.

The one on the left is Ilona, the one you have on right is Wonkas - its the back of his documentation with HIS photo and its just stating he is traveling with her.

 

[mishy66]

Just adding IK's passenger card for all to see with "now married" but WW "never married" for same journey.

Exactly.

Now go have a look at all their cards together....going in and going out

 

[mishy66]

Hard to say. The second photo is so poor quality it's of barely any use at all.

Also the first photo taken with the face looking up, straight on, and in such bright light that the features are bleached out - v - the second picture a complete opposite, face tilting downwards, slightly to the side, and with barely any light, making features look deep, larger, and exaggerated.

However, there are some basic similarities and there is certainly nothing to preclude photo B from being the same person in A

Similarities:

- both are white, light skinned, with very dark hair
- the hairline
- height and shape of forehead if using eyebrows as a reference point
- the shape of eyebrow / arch and distance between eyebrows and particularly the plane of the forehead at top of nose between eyebrows
- shape and situation of lower nose, quite large slightly flared nostrils at an angle
- shape of cheeks and lower face going down into a quite delicate chin
- the symmetry of features
- mouth held apart (most people close their mouth for ID pics)
- large front two middle teeth
- seems that second photo if scrutinised also has long plaited hair worn to one side just discernable

Problems - we literally cannot see the dimensions of the nose or the size and shape of lips in first picture so that gives us nothing.

I would say, my opinion only, that this could certainly be the same person and there is no evidence whatsoever from these photos that it isn't.
This is just a perfect example of how the same person can look so very different in different angle / lighting
(I'm a painter so am keenly aware of this)

It is photos of the BOTH of them. IK and wonkas.

The 2nd one is on HIS documentation, the back of, showing HiS photo and stating who he is travelling with. His wife IK

 

[Newby171]

Just out of curiosity, is this mr aka and wife in 1980 in Wentworth NSW? Hedervary - Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980 - Ancestry.com.au

 

[mishy66]

Rue de Passy???

Yep..
I didnt go into all the details as most of it can now be digested and worked through.
But its all there and I have more.
Just keep searching.

Going back to my comment a while back that there are TWO people working this ship.
Son from MC
And son from brother of Maria, RC

Also to note.
Marias children last name are DAVID. Wouters name came along AFTER she married Andre/Abel Wouters.

Have lots of names to search.
They are all criminals, have been since born thanks to their fathers who were also crims.

One man RB can not have over 33 aliases and not be confused.
Its deciphering who is WDavidWouters and who is WCoppenolle.
Once you look at all the documentation of dates things start to make a LOT more sense.

QC. .."MrBlooooooom you cant be in two places at once"

 

[mishy66]

Just out of curiosity, is this mr aka and wife in 1980 in Wentworth NSW? Hedervary - Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980 - Ancestry.com.au

Yes if you use search in the bar at top you will find all the electoral addresses another sleuth has found.

 

[mishy66]

My belief is that the person born Willy David Wouters is one person.
And Willy David Coppenolle is the other.
This explains A LOT of why it looks like a confused mess and with too much 'intelligence ' that we are giving to RB.
He might be a criminal but he isnt that intelligent. Street wise yes. An intellect no.

It's the reason why at the inquest hecan't answer some of the more important stuff, because he has no idea, and WHY the dates in the years of IK and WWdon't match up, among other dates.

DdeH is married to Willy David Coppenolle aka RB, illegitimate child and his 'brother' WWD is his offsider.
One gathers the goods and the other disposes the evidence.
The only thing that stopped this whole unbelievably disgusting criminal act going on since the early 1950s was SL continuing to follow her hunches, and with that will bring down decades of crime by two soulless CRIMINALS.
IMO MOO JMO !!!!

My belief.

 

[mishy66]

It’s certainly possible @mishy66 you’ve been busy that’s for sure.
So do you think the real WW applied for citizenship when arriving to be with IK?
The other WDC is the one who obtained the citizenship?
Clearly one of them was using FD documentation not only through passport in and out of OZ but also in Belgium for Fraud after the real FD was deceased.
Which W do you think that was? WW or WDC?
Or potentially have both been sharing the load of Jail /theft and both assisting each other?
Definitely there’s times it appears 1 person is in two places. And during inquest there were a couple of times RB appeared confused especially the baby birth certificate…and his signature on registration.

Thats because he is WC illegitimate child of RC.
He wouldnt know what IK was doing because it wasnt him back then who came in it was willy david 'wouters'.
They are ALL convicted crooks, with access to a whole myriad of documentations, after all Robert C worked as a resistance fighter....

As for who's who in the zoo....?
That will need another few months ha!
But looking at all the confirmed DATES is a good start to begin making sense of it all AND what RB says at the inquest....

 

[KiwiNZ]

Thats because he is WC illegitimate child of RC.
He wouldnt know what IK was doing because it wasnt him back then who came in it was willy david 'wouters'.
They are ALL convicted crooks, with access to a whole myriad of documentations, after all Robert C worked as a resistance fighter....

As for who's who in the zoo....?
That will need another few months ha!
But looking at all the confirmed DATES is a good start to begin making sense of it all AND what RB says at the inquest....

you have done some great work and your skills in researching are outstanding !!!

If RB did not marry IK or is not the father of the child, why at this point is he claiming to be ? would it not be easier to say it wasn't me you have the wrong person, I don't quite understand why he would keep up the presence at this stage, have I missed something or is there something I am not considering ?

I assume they have been in contact with IK's daughter, she may (or may not) have an idea who her father is ? if she does I am sure that would have cleared a lot up for the police, also the identity of MJR

 

[mishy66]

If RB did not marry IK or is not the father of the child, why at this point is he claiming to be ? would it not be easier to say it wasn't me you have the wrong person, I don't quite understand why he would keep up the presence at this stage, have I missed something or is there something I am not considering ?

After decades of "work" with his "brother" one would doubt he is about to throw him under the bus, they have a very lucrative business going on since the 1960s.

If this was an investigation into fraud and or laundering money alone, it may be a reason to say hey hang on that is my "brother" but it isnt.
This is an investigation into the possible murder of MB.
IMO

 

[Carovb5]

That's really very curious, @Carovb5. How difficult would it be for a native French speaker to get that wrong? Is there anything else about it that looks a bit 'off' to you?

Not really. I noticed it because the constant switching between French & English got my attention. Is it on purpose (although it seems he lived in the French speaking part of Belgium) to seem French (as in Living in France), or is it just because he filled it in quickly…

 

[Roseberry]

Not really. I noticed it because the constant switching between French & English got my attention. Is it on purpose (although it seems he lived in the French speaking part of Belgium) to seem French (as in Living in France), or is it just because he filled it in quickly…

Hmm, yet more uncertainty surrounding passenger cards (WW,FD,IK, MB etc etc)...might have to revisit the MJR NZ one (and serve myself a slice of humble pie!)

 

[Roseberry]

Yep..
I didnt go into all the details as most of it can now be digested and worked through.
But its all there and I have more.
Just keep searching.

Going back to my comment a while back that there are TWO people working this ship.
Son from MC
And son from brother of Maria, RC

Also to note.
Marias children last name are DAVID. Wouters name came along AFTER she married Andre/Abel Wouters.

Have lots of names to search.
They are all criminals, have been since born thanks to their fathers who were also crims.

One man RB can not have over 33 aliases and not be confused.
Its deciphering who is WDavidWouters and who is WCoppenolle.
Once you look at all the documentation of dates things start to make a LOT more sense.

QC. .."MrBlooooooom you cant be in two places at once"

Incredible research and sleuthing, Mishy!.

Is the Rue de Passy the family seat in Froyennes, or related to the Passy-Froyennes institution in Tournai, do you think?

 

[mishy66]

@mishy66 just read Ian Robb's story, awful but fascinating too and the Robert Coppenolle connection..wow!

That incredible story Ian Robb was found by another sleuth. It just tied up beautifully with what I had already found.
It is incredible that these small connections bring so much clarity.
I bet Ian Robb would never have thought his story would be such a big part of an investigation here in Australia.

 

[mishy66]

But I don't understand '5 years in Buchenwald' when all the papers say he was sent there in 1944. Also, 145cm tall..well short for a man born in the 20th century.. and in 1945 he weighed 53kgs.

Ruby I accidently added THIS piece from my research - IN MY POST
"
Arolsen Archives
Name: Robert Van Coppenolle
Gender: männlich (Male)
Nationality: Frankreich
Record Type: Residence
Sojourn Start Date: Okt 1941 (Oct 1941)
Residence Place: Hohenkammer Freising
Sojourn End Date: 25 Mrz 1945 (25 Mar 1945)
Notes: Foreigners who were living in the location during the war – permanently or temporarily
Reference Number: 02010101 oS
Document ID: 69903207"


This isn't him. ( just another line I was following)

Dismiss this in my previous post - it was too late to edit the post at the time.

This was the link that was meant to be in my previous post.
Name: Robert Coppenolle
Record Type: Residence
Discharge Date: 1944
Reference Number: 02010401 oS
Document ID: 70948126
Ancestry - Sign Up

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/5697577?s=coppenolle&t=222836&p=1

Sorry for the confusion.