Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[mishy66]

I have that report of Freddy David being condemned to 12 months appearing on 15 Feb 1968 in Le Soir on page 4.
The reference of 7 June 1942 in Tounai is his birth date as I understand it! Not the date of the crimes.

Hope that helps

Yep exactly. It doesn't say he is 3 yrs old. It says that it is his birthdate.
To me this is THE FD - the birthdate is the same and so is the Area born.

I just put up what I find and going on all the details I have so far, without a death notice, it is still very reasonable to suggest FD is the one dead in the car accident and that his brother WW used his ID in the conviction.
Until a death notice is found it is on the table for me still.

It is trying to make sense of complete nonsense with this family.

They have spent 60 odd years as criminals, they don't behave as a person with morals. This is all they know. How they survive. Make a living. They are war kids, doing what they can to survive and along the way these W kids perfected their craft.
I have no sympathy or give them any slack what so ever.
Everything is on the table for me as @BonnieB said earlier, until proven otherwise.

And someone did mention papers not getting all details correct - as we all know. So a double D in a name also doesn't eliminate a person.

I also don't take Gen trees as gospel either, but they are a good place to start.
Without them, we wouldn't have the information we have all found so far. They are the stepping stones for eliminating or proving what information is valid, after lots of researching.

Some points of interest:

The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

The death writeup in 1963 is a Freddy D with a double D.

The paper write up about the Conviction 1968 has Freddy David double D and stating birthdate as the 7th June and this is the date on all passenger lists that we know of so far.

And going forward it stands to reason that incidences happening as they become adults are not necessarily in their home town of Tournai .......

Incoming passenger list Fredy D with one D

Outgoing passenger list shows Fredi D with one D and an i (incidentally most of writing on this card is not his.....)


I guess I am trying to point out that with newspaper writeups perhaps getting small details incorrect and the fact that we all know the D.W.C. menagerie are convicted criminals since childhood, nothing can be eliminated until proven otherwise.

And for the children of Maria C and David D - with their stepfather Abel Wouters
there is NO actual proof found so far of birth deets for the child born WDW, no actual proof of birth / death deets for the child born FDW, no actual proof of birth deets for the child born DDW.

We can only go on what we have found this far.

And I still maintain that the RB as we know him today is actually the son of RC.
Whether he is WW placed into the home of Maria C after the war and named after the stepfather who knows.

All My Opinion for what its worth.

 

[mishy66]

It is hard to confirm with the spelling of names being so difficult to determine back then with handwriting often being illegible, or people who couldn't write relied on others to spell their name correctly with very little cross checking done.

When I was recently looking for some historical information on my Nana I found her first name spelt 3 different ways (birth cert, 2 marriage certs and death cert) and also her middle name was spelt differently twice plus on her second marriage cert her first married name had been hyphenated to her middle name. It was so confusing.

Yes I found that too when doing my family history. Many people left school after primary school to help bring in some money for the family and could barely write their name, Marking it with a X mostly and then having to have a transcriber write it down - this is where the mix ups happened.
It took me 10 yrs to find all my family as there were so many named after each other it was really difficult to work through it all ( kind of like the families we are working on here)

• The first son was named after the father's father
• The second son was named after the mother's father
• The third son was named after the father
• The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother
• The first daughter after the mother's mother
• The second daughter after the father's mother
• The third daughter after the mother
• The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister

etc etc etc

Crazy times!

But I cant imagine what it will be like for future generations doing historical trees given all the changes we see today!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Yep exactly. It doesn't say he is 3 yrs old. It says that it is his birthdate.
To me this is THE FD - the birthdate is the same and so is the Area born.

I just put up what I find and going on all the details I have so far, without a death notice, it is still very reasonable to suggest FD is the one dead in the car accident and that his brother WW used his ID in the conviction.
Until a death notice is found it is on the table for me still.

It is trying to make sense of complete nonsense with this family.

They have spent 60 odd years as criminals, they don't behave as a person with morals. This is all they know. How they survive. Make a living. They are war kids, doing what they can to survive and along the way these W kids perfected their craft.
I have no sympathy or give them any slack what so ever.
Everything is on the table for me as @BonnieB said earlier, until proven otherwise.

And someone did mention papers not getting all details correct - as we all know. So a double D in a name also doesn't eliminate a person.

I also don't take Gen trees as gospel either, but they are a good place to start.
Without them, we wouldn't have the information we have all found so far. They are the stepping stones for eliminating or proving what information is valid, after lots of researching.

Some points of interest:

The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

The death writeup in 1963 is a Freddy D with a double D.

The paper write up about the Conviction 1968 has Freddy David double D and stating birthdate as the 7th June and this is the date on all passenger lists that we know of so far.

And going forward it stands to reason that incidences happening as they become adults are not necessarily in their home town of Tournai .......

Incoming passenger list Fredy D with one D

Outgoing passenger list shows Fredi D with one D and an i (incidentally most of writing on this card is not his.....)


I guess I am trying to point out that with newspaper writeups perhaps getting small details incorrect and the fact that we all know the D.W.C. menagerie are convicted criminals since childhood, nothing can be eliminated until proven otherwise.

And for the children of Maria C and David D - with their stepfather Abel Wouters
there is NO actual proof found so far of birth deets for the child born WDW, no actual proof of birth / death deets for the child born FDW, no actual proof of birth deets for the child born DDW.

We can only go on what we have found this far.

And I still maintain that the RB as we know him today is actually the son of RC.
Whether he is WW placed into the home of Maria C after the war and named after the stepfather who knows.

All My Opinion for what its worth.

Personally I too also believe he is William son of Robert and that is the connection leading him to be raised by Maria.

 

[BonnieB]

@mishy66
The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

This makes complete sense to me.

In 1942, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France when Fredy was born. (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.) They were probably also caring for their nephew, William (Willy Wonka)

1943 Death notice on 25-03-1943 for DESIRE DAVID 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, France and husband to a MARIA COPPENOLLE.

1943 Birth of Desire DAVID Jnr.


There is no "David" father returning from a Spanish civil war, being executed by Germans.

Wonka's real father (Robert Coppenolle) WAS captured by the Germans (probably as a resistance fighter) and was held as a political prisoner.
I have a feeling Robert abandoned his son after being released, and started a new life with his Italian bride.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I think we have exhausted most efforts regarding family lineage.

what is still bugging me are

Ye Old Passy property in Tamborine - where the heck is it and we know he sold a portion do they still own the other section of land?

the horse accident… There are always elements of truth. Was it a horse? Did it happen in the Sonian Forest?
Did the gendarmerie do training exercises in the forest?
Was it a horse accident elsewhere?
Was it an accident in the forest BUT not on a horse?

Why does he not know where is brother is ? If he travelled extensively to visit brothers.

d said in her testimony when Maria died here was something left to the children (which they ended up not receiving) but nothing was left to her husband..
Why does he speak of inheritance?

Is the inheritance that are in coupon book actually from his birth father and not Maria C

why is renov pubs still registered? If he lives here, hasn’t travelled in years to Belgium… is it still operating? If not then why is it still registered? How has he proven De’Hedervary in the 60’s to register renov pubs? You have to prove you are who you are and a citizen.

The sofa company?? What is the name!

The move to Burwash yet the continual weekly travel back and forth… why move? I don’t believe it was for D’s benefit nor the children as the reality is young children in a foreign land is fabulous for them to become bilingual. And D herself.. mentioning the language.. would you not learn if you lived there for years? To benefit yourself?

these are just some of the things that are bugging me.

with regards to family lines I think we have exhausted what we can from here (aus) without being in Belgium and searching micro film.

hopefully there will be more vital information in the next round of inquest.. thing we don’t know because we can’t access.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

@mishy66
The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

This makes complete sense to me.

In 1942, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France when Fredy was born. (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.) They were probably also caring for their nephew, William (Willy Wonka)

1943 Death notice on 25-03-1943 for DESIRE DAVID 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, France and husband to a MARIA COPPENOLLE.

1943 Birth of Desire DAVID Jnr.


There is no "David" father returning from a Spanish civil war, being executed by Germans.

Wonka's real father (Robert Coppenolle) WAS captured by the Germans (probably as a resistance fighter) and was held as a political prisoner.
I have a feeling Robert abandoned his son after being released, and started a new life with his Italian bride.

Yes! I don’t believe MP is his mother !

 

[Liselle]

I think we have exhausted most efforts regarding family lineage.

what is still bugging me are

Ye Old Passy property in Tamborine - where the heck is it and we know he sold a portion do they still own the other section of land?

the horse accident… There are always elements of truth. Was it a horse? Did it happen in the Sonian Forest?
Did the gendarmerie do training exercises in the forest?
Was it a horse accident elsewhere?
Was it an accident in the forest BUT not on a horse?

Why does he not know where is brother is ? If he travelled extensively to visit brothers.

d said in her testimony when Maria died here was something left to the children (which they ended up not receiving) but nothing was left to her husband..
Why does he speak of inheritance?

Is the inheritance that are in coupon book actually from his birth father and not Maria C

why is renov pubs still registered? If he lives here, hasn’t travelled in years to Belgium… is it still operating? If not then why is it still registered? How has he proven De’Hedervary in the 60’s to register renov pubs? You have to prove you are who you are and a citizen.

The sofa company?? What is the name!

The move to Burwash yet the continual weekly travel back and forth… why move? I don’t believe it was for D’s benefit nor the children as the reality is young children in a foreign land is fabulous for them to become bilingual. And D herself.. mentioning the language.. would you not learn if you lived there for years? To benefit yourself?

these are just some of the things that are bugging me.

with regards to family lines I think we have exhausted what we can from here (aus) without being in Belgium and searching micro film.

hopefully there will be more vital information in the next round of inquest.. thing we don’t know because we can’t access.

@Eyespywithmylittleeye NAA file, page 26, states Ye Old Passy is on HAZEL ROAD, Tamborine. Hope this helps.

 

[BonnieB]

I think we have exhausted most efforts regarding family lineage.

what is still bugging me are

Ye Old Passy property in Tamborine - where the heck is it and we know he sold a portion do they still own the other section of land?

the horse accident… There are always elements of truth. Was it a horse? Did it happen in the Sonian Forest?
Did the gendarmerie do training exercises in the forest?
Was it a horse accident elsewhere?
Was it an accident in the forest BUT not on a horse?

Why does he not know where is brother is ? If he travelled extensively to visit brothers.

d said in her testimony when Maria died here was something left to the children (which they ended up not receiving) but nothing was left to her husband..
Why does he speak of inheritance?

Is the inheritance that are in coupon book actually from his birth father and not Maria C

why is renov pubs still registered? If he lives here, hasn’t travelled in years to Belgium… is it still operating? If not then why is it still registered? How has he proven De’Hedervary in the 60’s to register renov pubs? You have to prove you are who you are and a citizen.

The sofa company?? What is the name!

The move to Burwash yet the continual weekly travel back and forth… why move? I don’t believe it was for D’s benefit nor the children as the reality is young children in a foreign land is fabulous for them to become bilingual. And D herself.. mentioning the language.. would you not learn if you lived there for years? To benefit yourself?

these are just some of the things that are bugging me.

with regards to family lines I think we have exhausted what we can from here (aus) without being in Belgium and searching micro film.

hopefully there will be more vital information in the next round of inquest.. thing we don’t know because we can’t access.

IMO...
1. Ye Old Passy (The posh area of Paris) was 20 acres of vacant land at (65?) Hazel Road, Tamborine. If he still owns any of it is anyone's guess.
2. The horse accident. Given that he tells different versions of the story to different people it's possible there is some element of truth in it. IMO, his leg injuries are more consistent with a motor vehicle accident which could have occurred whilst in the Gendarmerie. The horse story sounds so much more dramatic though doesn't it? That could also explain the pension.
3. His brother/cousin, Desire appears to have disassociated himself totally from Wonka, and with good reason, I'd say.
4. IMO all the talk of inheritance is just Wonka-speak for unexplained money.
5. Renov Pubs - I think a forensic accountant would be needed to untangle the web of companies and tax dodges he has created to hide dirty money and dodgy dealings.
6. The sofa company was named "European Seats" translated into English, I believe.
7. Burwash - Yes, I agree there's a lot more to that move than meets the eye. IMOO

 

[gymtonic]

I think we have exhausted most efforts regarding family lineage.

what is still bugging me are

Ye Old Passy property in Tamborine - where the heck is it and we know he sold a portion do they still own the other section of land?

the horse accident… There are always elements of truth. Was it a horse? Did it happen in the Sonian Forest?
Did the gendarmerie do training exercises in the forest?
Was it a horse accident elsewhere?
Was it an accident in the forest BUT not on a horse?

Why does he not know where is brother is ? If he travelled extensively to visit brothers.

d said in her testimony when Maria died here was something left to the children (which they ended up not receiving) but nothing was left to her husband..
Why does he speak of inheritance?

Is the inheritance that are in coupon book actually from his birth father and not Maria C

why is renov pubs still registered? If he lives here, hasn’t travelled in years to Belgium… is it still operating? If not then why is it still registered? How has he proven De’Hedervary in the 60’s to register renov pubs? You have to prove you are who you are and a citizen.

The sofa company?? What is the name!

The move to Burwash yet the continual weekly travel back and forth… why move? I don’t believe it was for D’s benefit nor the children as the reality is young children in a foreign land is fabulous for them to become bilingual. And D herself.. mentioning the language.. would you not learn if you lived there for years? To benefit yourself?

these are just some of the things that are bugging me.

with regards to family lines I think we have exhausted what we can from here (aus) without being in Belgium and searching micro film.

hopefully there will be more vital information in the next round of inquest.. thing we don’t know because we can’t access.

Some more good questions to add to my list! yes, I have exhausted the family story for now too. genetic cousins? quaternary twins? twins? brothers? step-brothers? given the time in history and displacements it is unlikely we will find the solution to some mysteries. We can say the confusion was used to advantage!

I can help with one of your questions if you are talking about the furniture factory? see
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

 

[mishy66]

@mishy66
The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

This makes complete sense to me.

In 1942, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France when Fredy was born. (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.) They were probably also caring for their nephew, William (Willy Wonka)

1943 Death notice on 25-03-1943 for DESIRE DAVID 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, France and husband to a MARIA COPPENOLLE.

1943 Birth of Desire DAVID Jnr.


There is no "David" father returning from a Spanish civil war, being executed by Germans.

Wonka's real father (Robert Coppenolle) WAS captured by the Germans (probably as a resistance fighter) and was held as a political prisoner.
I have a feeling Robert abandoned his son after being released, and started a new life with his Italian bride.

Absolutely agree 100%

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

@Eyespywithmylittleeye NAA file, page 26, states Ye Old Passy is on HAZEL ROAD, Tamborine. Hope this helps.

Yes I know but I haven’t been able to find it.. mainly due to any newspaper ads not being available online in archives too new yet too old in current it’s just right in the middle. Old RE listings online don’t go that far back. We need someone on here in sales in QLD as I think they could search sales data online… hint to any sleuths

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Some more good questions to add to my list! yes, I have exhausted the family story for now too. genetic cousins? quaternary twins? twins? brothers? step-brothers? given the time in history and displacements it is unlikely we will find the solution to some mysteries. We can say the confusion was used to advantage!

I can help with one of your questions if you are talking about the furniture factory? see
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

Wonderful I’m going to go on another bonkers search trying to find something about this company

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

IMO...
1. Ye Old Passy (The posh area of Paris) was 20 acres of vacant land at (65?) Hazel Road, Tamborine. If he still owns any of it is anyone's guess.
2. The horse accident. Given that he tells different versions of the story to different people it's possible there is some element of truth in it. IMO, his leg injuries are more consistent with a motor vehicle accident which could have occurred whilst in the Gendarmerie. The horse story sounds so much more dramatic though doesn't it? That could also explain the pension.
3. His brother/cousin, Desire appears to have disassociated himself totally from Wonka, and with good reason, I'd say.
4. IMO all the talk of inheritance is just Wonka-speak for unexplained money.
5. Renov Pubs - I think a forensic accountant would be needed to untangle the web of companies and tax dodges he has created to hide dirty money and dodgy dealings.
6. The sofa company was named "European Seats" translated into English, I believe.
7. Burwash - Yes, I agree there's a lot more to that move than meets the eye. IMOO

How we know it was 65 Hazel?

 

[mishy66]

IMO...
1. Ye Old Passy (The posh area of Paris) was 20 acres of vacant land at (65?) Hazel Road, Tamborine. If he still owns any of it is anyone's guess.
2. The horse accident. Given that he tells different versions of the story to different people it's possible there is some element of truth in it. IMO, his leg injuries are more consistent with a motor vehicle accident which could have occurred whilst in the Gendarmerie. The horse story sounds so much more dramatic though doesn't it? That could also explain the pension.
3. His brother/cousin, Desire appears to have disassociated himself totally from Wonka, and with good reason, I'd say.
4. IMO all the talk of inheritance is just Wonka-speak for unexplained money.
5. Renov Pubs - I think a forensic accountant would be needed to untangle the web of companies and tax dodges he has created to hide dirty money and dodgy dealings.
6. The sofa company was named "European Seats" translated into English, I believe.
7. Burwash - Yes, I agree there's a lot more to that move than meets the eye. IMOO

Yes @BonnieB I agree too.

1. Agree and also 'Ye Old Passy' name is also part of the 'Don Juan' story that Wonka seems to align his life with in my eyes.

4 & 5 . Agree completely - hello Ponzi schemes
The Bernie Madoff Story
( I have a theory this is why Wonks started using women in Aust later on as he had a fortune to repay to investors and the quickest way was to scam vulnerable women out of their house deeds and money.

7. Burwash is key I reckon too.

 

[mishy66]

1943 Birth of Desire DAVID Jnr.

@BonnieB do you have a month for his birth at all.

 

[BonnieB]

@BonnieB do you have a month for his birth at all.

No, sorry I don't

 

[BonnieB]

How we know it was 65 Hazel?

We don't, hence the ? mark. Someone suggested that number and I can't remember who or where, sorry.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

We don't, hence the ? mark. Someone suggested that number and I can't remember who or where, sorry.

Oh ok. I think that is due to what is still currently showing a big block of land but because we are talking years ago I don’t think we can go on current layout of hazel street JMO

 

[Liselle]

Yes I know but I haven’t been able to find it.. mainly due to any newspaper ads not being available online in archives too new yet too old in current it’s just right in the middle. Old RE listings online don’t go that far back. We need someone on here in sales in QLD as I think they could search sales data online… hint to any sleuths

With Hazel Road less than 1km long, someone should go door-knocking to ask questions. It would also be interesting to know which alias was used to purchase the property!

 

[BabeBlues]

What is interesting @Liselle @Eyespywithmylittleeye @BonnieB on the NAA files the name "Ye Old Passy - Australia - Tamborine Queensland" (a forged die) was mentioned in 1976/1977 in the Tournai Police Court list of criminal activities sent to the Australian Federal police in 1980 View digital copy (naa.gov.au) page 147

However it wasn't seen as an address for FdH until it was noted on one of his returning passenger cards to Australia in January 1986 (this is the one where he boarded in the Philippines). View digital copy (naa.gov.au) page 27

It maybe completely irrelevant to anyone's timeline, I just found it interesting.