Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[Carovb5]

I’ve searched everywhere but can only find purchase.. I thought perhaps nowadays there would be a digital copy but haven’t found one.

I found out they have a copy in the library of the university of Gent. (they also have the book i mentioned in the post above: 'ze hebben het overleefd - Sylvain Brachfeld)
Is there a Sleuth here living close to the university of Gent?
Ze hebben het overleefd - Universiteitsbibliotheek Gent
Le récif de l'espoir : souvenirs de guerre dans un home d'enfants juifs - Universiteitsbibliotheek Gent

 

[Carovb5]

I’ve searched everywhere but can only find purchase.. I thought perhaps nowadays there would be a digital copy but haven’t found one.

I found out they have a copy in the library of the university of Gent. (they also have the book i mentioned in the post above: 'ze hebben het overleefd - Sylvain Brachfeld)
Is there a Sleuth here living close to the university of Gent?
Ze hebben het overleefd - Universiteitsbibliotheek Gent
Le récif de l'espoir : souvenirs de guerre dans un home d'enfants juifs - Universiteitsbibliotheek Gent

Yes it is sobering isn't it.

I have just been looking through this @Carovb5

Browse by Name | Remember Me: Displaced Children of the Holocaust

Wow, got me goosebumps all over. Poor kids, thank god for people like Marie Blum!

 

[ruby925]

if RB is of Jewish heritage, it would likely be easier to find him in an orphanage, as there are extensive records of all the displaced children, although many were given new names. If no Jewish connection and RB was placed in a childrens' home due his mother's inability to look after him, or the husband did not want to bring up another man's child (harsh, but possible) then I think that may be more difficult to trace. Also, he may have been in more than one home?
In one of my sixty open tabs....I may still have Sylvain Brachfeld's list of children as a PDF, and another list from the US memorial website of displaced children.

 

[Laughing]

Ya'll are amazing! Keep at it!

 

[hoodunnit]

(wasnt Willy Mrs Wonkas husband ? ) Gordon is Robert as in Walker Mrs Wonkas father ? haha

Haha, yes. See, Searching all these names does send you bonkers after a while! You're right, Gordon W was Mrs Wonka's dad

 

[ruby925]

Arrgh, I now cannot find either of the wartime lists I mentioned in the previous post...One list I could have been mistaken, but two less likely. Giving up now after a couple of hours searching history etc.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It's really odd that RB has been calling himself Freddy, Frederick, through the years. He says D called him Ric instead because Freddy was a frog here. Fair enough. But he has a brother called Freddy, so how can two people in the family be Fred. Just something I wonder about.

 

[centred]

It's really odd that RB has been calling himself Freddy, Frederick, through the years. He says D called him Ric instead because Freddy was a frog here. Fair enough. But he has a brother called Freddy, so how can two people in the family be Fred. Just something I wonder about.

yes some names can be so interchangeable, like Margaret can be Meg , Peg , Marg, and Elizabeth can be many names as well , same for Frederick , Alfred, Fred, Ric, Rick , Freddy, etc and these are only the English spellings .

I am curious about displaced people and what happens if they cannot be traced to family after all this happened ? Do they just come up with a name to register ? Adopt a foster name and just live with that until and/or if and when they find their true identity ?

I think this Mr AKA sees this as normal because in a way it is for so many a reality from war and displacement especially when it came to Jewish persecution or Natzi connections forced to deny identity.

 

[BonnieB]

Just listening to Wonka's testimony for the umpteenth time. During questioning about him moving to Luxembourg in 1981 to set up the lounge making business for his "family", AC asked him to define "family". He replies, "Maria, Andre and my two brothers; they were all still alive then".
So, according to Wonka, Fredy and Andre must have both died between 1981 and 1990. He had previously testified that Fredy died before Andre and that Maria died alone in hospital in 1990.
That still leaves Desire. Wonka testified that his last interaction with Desire was in December 1999 when he spent one night at his home in Flobecq. (questionable IMO)

Have I got all this correct or have the sleuths proved more of this testimony as lies?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just listening to Wonka's testimony for the umpteenth time. During questioning about him moving to Luxembourg in 1981 to set up the lounge making business for his "family", AC asked him to define "family". He replies, "Maria, Andre and my two brothers; they were all still alive then".
So, according to Wonka, Fredy and Andre must have both died between 1981 and 1990. He had previously testified that Fredy died before Andre and that Maria died alone in hospital in 1990.
That still leaves Desire. Wonka testified that his last interaction with Desire was in December 1999 when he spent one night at his home in Flobecq. (questionable IMO)

Have I got all this correct or have the sleuths proved more of this testimony as lies?

Good point BonnieB, about Freddy and Andre, they were still around then. And the phone call he got in Coles in 1990 about MC's passing - not even sure if there were mobile phones here then, but if there were they would have been super expensive, thousands of dollars I'd imagine - or did they put a call over the PA system at Coles for him.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Just listening to Wonka's testimony for the umpteenth time. During questioning about him moving to Luxembourg in 1981 to set up the lounge making business for his "family", AC asked him to define "family". He replies, "Maria, Andre and my two brothers; they were all still alive then".
So, according to Wonka, Fredy and Andre must have both died between 1981 and 1990. He had previously testified that Fredy died before Andre and that Maria died alone in hospital in 1990.
That still leaves Desire. Wonka testified that his last interaction with Desire was in December 1999 when he spent one night at his home in Flobecq. (questionable IMO)

Have I got all this correct or have the sleuths proved more of this testimony as lies?

I’m so glad you said this as I was always certain he died later.. but then @mishy66 found the death of Freddy in a car accident. And knowing Wonka had used his ID to enter on Chusan it backed up that Freddy was dead.

why can’t we find Freddys death (aside from the newspaper article. I’ve tried searching the cemeteries but can’t find him.

To me something occurred between desire & Wonka .. maybe Desire was sick of Wonkas antics? It’s interesting that he has not used desires ID before and taken his name as an alias. And I think there’s a reason for that I just don’t know what that reason is.

why would he not have spoken to him for 20 years? Why does he not even know if he’s dead or alive?

I think Desire told him to get out of his life.

JMO

 

[BonnieB]

It's really odd that RB has been calling himself Freddy, Frederick, through the years. He says D called him Ric instead because Freddy was a frog here. Fair enough. But he has a brother called Freddy, so how can two people in the family be Fred. Just something I wonder about.

Exactly! IMO he introduced himself to the Walkers as FREDY DAVID (the passport he was using at the time) DW preferred Rick (the frog thing). Then when he returned to Australia (on no-one knows what passport) he had to continue the Fredy David name so he changed it to FREDERICK DAVID de Hedervary (probably making up some BS story about the deH part) The Walkers probably knew nothing about his Wonka name until later (if ever). They probably had no idea their daughter was writing to him in a gaol cell either. The fact that the marriage took place at the Wayside Chapel says it all IMO.

 

[BonnieB]

Good point BonnieB, about Freddy and Andre, they were still around then. And the phone call he got in Coles in 1990 about MC's passing - not even sure if there were mobile phones here then, but if there were they would have been super expensive, thousands of dollars I'd imagine - or did they put a call over the PA system at Coles for him.

I think he had a mobile phone, a very expensive one at that time. I don't buy the PA system thing. It's not as if he rushed over to her funeral either. Listen to how he refers to her, there are no loving feelings toward her at all.

 

[mishy66]

Just listening to Wonka's testimony for the umpteenth time. During questioning about him moving to Luxembourg in 1981 to set up the lounge making business for his "family", AC asked him to define "family". He replies, "Maria, Andre and my two brothers; they were all still alive then".
So, according to Wonka, Fredy and Andre must have both died between 1981 and 1990. He had previously testified that Fredy died before Andre and that Maria died alone in hospital in 1990.
That still leaves Desire. Wonka testified that his last interaction with Desire was in December 1999 when he spent one night at his home in Flobecq. (questionable IMO)

Have I got all this correct or have the sleuths proved more of this testimony as lies?

I don't believe a thing he says.
He threads grains of truths in his long winded stories.
I still believe that Freddy - his step brother IMO- died in 1963

1963 - April– FREDY DAVID WOUTERS DIES – CAR CRASH – LE SOIR 17/4/1963 ed.7
(FD died instantly of broken neck, along with 2 others. FD driver reversing back along road into overtaking car)

BUT I am still coming from the angle that he is NEITHER Willy, Fredy or Desire Coppenolle 'Wouters' ( Maria C and Desire Davids children - (who end up having Abel /Andre "Florent " (as RB also makes mention of at inquest) Wouters as their Stepfather) but instead he is the son of Robert C (Marias brother), William Coppenolle and was placed with her and her family after the orphanage.

And I am still coming from the angle there are two of them - William C and (I think Willy David Wouters) all connected to this saga. JMO


Also in the year of 1981:

1981 21 Jan – DdeH and DdeH (son) back to Australia from Germany– been away for 9 months

Then just shy of 3 months ......
1981 17 April - MC.DeH (daughter) born in Luxembourg - So they must leave Australia again for Maite to be born in Luxenbourg

IMO having MCDeH born in Luxembourg is very important to him/them.


And just another weird observation for me:
ALL born in April
DdeH 16 April 1951
DdeHedervary (son)2 April 1979
MdeH (daughter) April 17 1981 - her birth is one day after her mothers.

I mean it could be a simple coincidence with the kids given his birthday is July 1939.....

 

[BonnieB]

I’m so glad you said this as I was always certain he died later.. but then @mishy66 found the death of Freddy in a car accident. And knowing Wonka had used his ID to enter on Chusan it backed up that Freddy was dead.

why can’t we find Freddys death (aside from the newspaper article. I’ve tried searching the cemeteries but can’t find him.

To me something occurred between desire & Wonka .. maybe Desire was sick of Wonkas antics? It’s interesting that he has not used desires ID before and taken his name as an alias. And I think there’s a reason for that I just don’t know what that reason is.

why would he not have spoken to him for 20 years? Why does he not even know if he’s dead or alive?

I think Desire told him to get out of his life.

JMO

Absolutely agree about Desire, and the reason he hasn't used his name is probably because he knows Desire will go straight to the authorities if he does.

I've searched all the cemeteries too but you will only find him if it was a burial. Cremations aren't listed unless they purchase a niche etc for the ashes. Then of course, he may have died outside Belgium.

 

[mishy66]

Good point BonnieB, about Freddy and Andre, they were still around then. And the phone call he got in Coles in 1990 about MC's passing - not even sure if there were mobile phones here then, but if there were they would have been super expensive, thousands of dollars I'd imagine - or did they put a call over the PA system at Coles for him.

hahahahahaha!! Oh I laughed out loud with that PA call @Itsapuzzle
Imagine it..."Willy Wouters to the check out please, your mother has just died" .

 

[mishy66]

I think he had a mobile phone, a very expensive one at that time. I don't buy the PA system thing. It's not as if he rushed over to her funeral either. Listen to how he refers to her, there are no loving feelings toward her at all.

IMO he has no regard to women at all ( except maybe daughter) - that is obvious in everything he has ever done with them - he uses them for his gains. The way he spoke about women in general at the inquest was deplorable. And Australians for that matter.
Except maybe MC - something about that whole timeframe is also key I reckon. - She was the only one he spoke about with any sort of 'warmth'.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Exactly! IMO he introduced himself to the Walkers as FREDY DAVID (the passport he was using at the time) DW preferred Rick (the frog thing). Then when he returned to Australia (on no-one knows what passport) he had to continue the Fredy David name so he changed it to FREDERICK DAVID de Hedervary (probably making up some BS story about the deH part) The Walkers probably knew nothing about his Wonka name until later (if ever). They probably had no idea their daughter was writing to him in a gaol cell either. The fact that the marriage took place at the Wayside Chapel says it all IMO.

Admittedly though at that time I think the wayside chapel held a lot of weddings.

History - Wayside Chapel

to me considering the wealth that Mrs Wonkas family appeared to have it’s an odd choice of venue. Much nicer chapels and churches.

 

[BonnieB]

I don't believe a thing he says.
He threads grains of truths in his long winded stories.
I still believe that Freddy - his step brother IMO- died in 1963

1963 - April– FREDY DAVID WOUTERS DIES – CAR CRASH – LE SOIR 17/4/1963 ed.7
(FD died instantly of broken neck, along with 2 others. FD driver reversing back along road into overtaking car)

BUT I am still coming from the angle that he is NEITHER Willy, Fredy or Desire Coppenolle 'Wouters' ( Maria C and Desire Davids children - (who end up having Abel /Andre "Florent " (as RB also makes mention of at inquest) Wouters as their Stepfather) but instead he is the son of Robert C (Marias brother), William Coppenolle and was placed with her and her family after the orphanage.

And I am still coming from the angle there are two of them - William C and (I think Willy David Wouters) all connected to this saga. JMO


Also in the year of 1981:

1981 21 Jan – DdeH and DdeH (son) back to Australia from Germany– been away for 9 months

Then just shy of 3 months ......
1981 17 April - MC.DeH (daughter) born in Luxembourg - So they must leave Australia again for Maite to be born in Luxenbourg

IMO having MCDeH born in Luxembourg is very important to him/them.


And just another weird observation for me:
ALL born in April
DdeH 16 April 1951
DdeHedervary (son)2 April 1979
MdeH (daughter) April 17 1981 - her birth is one day after her mothers.

I mean it could be a simple coincidence with the kids given his birthday is July 1939.....

As you say mishy, you can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, so I remain open to everything on the table.

Regarding DdH's return to Australia in Jan 81, IMO she left him! Probably over his "platonic" affair with Monique or some other woman he took a fancy to. IMO DdH wouldn't risk flying back to Australia with her son just 10 weeks away from giving birth unless she had a damn good reason. I also suspect that is why she went to live in the UK too JMO

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

IMO he has no regard to women at all ( except maybe daughter) - that is obvious in everything he has ever done with them - he uses them for his gains. The way he spoke about women in general at the inquest was deplorable. And Australians for that matter.
Except maybe MC - something about that whole timeframe is also key I reckon. - She was the only one he spoke about with any sort of 'warmth'.

She’s the only one he has loved IMO and the only one who didn’t buy his BS and fall under his spell yes she had an affair but that doesn’t mean she fell for him and his stories. Hence he holds her in high regard because he didn’t outsmart her?