Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[mishy66]

Does anyone have Abel Wouters date of death?

All I have so far is:

1924 birth - Abel / Andre Wouters (birth year from marriage date to MC) making him 11 yrs younger than MC (1913) and marrying her (1950) 7 Years after DD dies.....a woman with no legs and 2/3 kids to look after ( if you believe wonks)

So that means he would be 12 years older than Wonks
and 11 years younger than MC
( interesting notion isn't it)

The only other thing of interest I found is 'a Andre Wouters' leaving Holland in 1952 heading to Canada and travelling with another couple.
This would be 2 years after marrying MC.

Ancestry® | Genealogy, Family Trees & Family History Records
See Attachment

 

[mishy66]

What is interesting @Liselle @Eyespywithmylittleeye @BonnieB on the NAA files the name "Ye Old Passy - Australia - Tamborine Queensland" (a forged die) was mentioned in 1976/1977 in the Tournai Police Court list of criminal activities sent to the Australian Federal police in 1980 View digital copy (naa.gov.au) page 147

However it wasn't seen as an address for FdH until it was noted on one of his returning passenger cards to Australia in January 1986 (this is the one where he boarded in the Philippines). View digital copy (naa.gov.au) page 27

It maybe completely irrelevant to anyone's timeline, I just found it interesting.

Yes and weren't the Wonkas living in Ballina at that time 1986???? having been away for 6 years , since birth of MdeH?
and he flies in and out of the country for 19 days again in October 1986 and address is the Mt Warren Park one?

Lots of flying and house moving for pensioners with 2 kids.

 

[BonnieB]

As I listen to him stress over and over that he's done nothing illegal in Australia, what he really means is that he's never been caught in Australia.
GGB, JO & MB are not his only victims here, I'd bet my house on it! There's something very fishy about selling a newly built house in Goonellabah and moving to Tasmania for 12 months. Likewise, his move out to Wollongbar for 12 months. AC is very suspicious about that move and the reason behind it. What did he do to who in Ballina?
Lets not forget that in MB's case, it's not just theft and fraud but very possibly a murder charge he's trying to lie his way out of.

 

[BabeBlues]

Oh ok. I think that is due to what is still currently showing a big block of land but because we are talking years ago I don’t think we can go on current layout of hazel street JMO

FdH used Hazel Rd as his address in 1986 on his incoming passenger card from the Philippines (coming home to spray the weeds )
63-69 Hazel Rd sold in Oct 1988 63-69 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
A few blocks on Hazel Rd sold in the 80's, this may have been when the land was first released for sale after a subdivision of a much larger piece of land on Hazel Rd?
May 1988 38-46 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
June 1988 43-53 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Jan 1987 48-54 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Feb 1976 (when FdH & DW married probs just a coincidence) 74-88 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Mar 1987 (again in 1990) 103-115 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1990 (again in 1991) 106-116 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1987 117-121 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Aug 1985 118-122 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
And a few more first sold in the late 70's.

 

[BabeBlues]

Yes and weren't the Wonkas living in Ballina at that time 1986???? having been away for 6 years , since birth of MdeH?
and he flies in and out of the country for 19 days again in October 1986 and address is the Mt Warren Park one?

Lots of flying and house moving for pensioners with 2 kids.

I have FdH listed as Hazel Rd Tamborine (Ye Old Passy) on incoming passenger card 02 Jan 86 (note his passport was expiring April 86) then 02 Oct 86 listed as Mt Warren Park on incoming passenger card (passport issued July 86). I don't see Ballina until the 90's??

 

[mishy66]

FdH used Hazel Rd as his address in 1986 on his incoming passenger card from the Philippines (coming home to spray the weeds )
63-69 Hazel Rd sold in Oct 1988 63-69 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
A few blocks on Hazel Rd sold in the 80's, this may have been when the land was first released for sale after a subdivision of a much larger piece of land on Hazel Rd?
May 1988 38-46 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
June 1988 43-53 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Jan 1987 48-54 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Feb 1976 (when FdH & DW married probs just a coincidence) 74-88 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Mar 1987 (again in 1990) 103-115 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1990 (again in 1991) 106-116 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1987 117-121 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Aug 1985 118-122 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
And a few more first sold in the late 70's.

Weeds.....hmmmmmm

Fascinating!

And given that in October 1986 - it is a Mt Warren Park address he gives
VERY ODD place for him to use as an address at that time IMO.

My thoughts are he has fleeced another woman here at Mt Warren park.....

During the early 1980's the estate was the site of several high profile lotteries run by a Brisbane based radio station. Major prize in the " Free Home lottery" was a house & land package in the estate. In one particular lottery, several houses were built along both sides of Schweitzer Street, with the winner given the choice of their preferred house. These houses were open to the public in the lead up to the draw, bringing a great deal to traffic and attention to the estate.

 

[mishy66]

I have FdH listed as Hazel Rd Tamborine (Ye Old Passy) on incoming passenger card 02 Jan 86 (note his passport was expiring April 86) then 02 Oct 86 listed as Mt Warren Park on incoming passenger card (passport issued July 86). I don't see Ballina until the 90's??

Diane claimed they purchased a house at Woodenbong (135 kms from Ballina) in 1987 using Diane's inheritance...

 

[BabeBlues]

Diane claimed they purchased a house at Woodenbong (135 kms from Ballina) in 1987 using Diane's inheritance...

Ah yes I see that, I didn't realise Woodenbong was that close to Ballina

 

[BabeBlues]

Weeds.....hmmmmmm

Fascinating!

And given that in October 1986 - it is a Mt Warren Park address he gives
VERY ODD place for him to use as an address at that time IMO.

My thoughts are he has fleeced another woman here at Mt Warren park.....

During the early 1980's the estate was the site of several high profile lotteries run by a Brisbane based radio station. Major prize in the " Free Home lottery" was a house & land package in the estate. In one particular lottery, several houses were built along both sides of Schweitzer Street, with the winner given the choice of their preferred house. These houses were open to the public in the lead up to the draw, bringing a great deal to traffic and attention to the estate.

The address listed on the incoming passenger card is a townhouse complex in Linning St, looks like it would have been quite new in the 80's and only 1km from the street you mention.

 

[Carovb5]

I have that report of Freddy David being condemned to 12 months appearing on 15 Feb 1968 in Le Soir on page 4.
The reference of 7 June 1942 in Tounai is his birth date as I understand it! Not the date of the crimes.

Hope that helps

Thanks!
07 june 1942 Freddy David born (sentenced)
08 june 1942 - Fredy David born (birth announcement)

Although the 1 day difference is a bit funny, i think we cant rule one of them out

In Belgium, in that period, people had longer, reffering to dads, grandpa’s,… names , but were called differently. For example:
Freddy/Fredy might come from:
- Frederic
- Frederick
- Alfred
- Fernand
-…
Willy can come from:
- William
- Wilfried
-Willem
- Wilhelm
my guess is: on his birth certificat he won’t be named Fredy/Freddy and Willy.

 

[BonnieB]

I have FdH listed as Hazel Rd Tamborine (Ye Old Passy) on incoming passenger card 02 Jan 86 (note his passport was expiring April 86) then 02 Oct 86 listed as Mt Warren Park on incoming passenger card (passport issued July 86). I don't see Ballina until the 90's??

Flies in as FdH and flies out a few months later as RICHARD L WEST - nothing to see here. It's like Australia is a washing machine for his identities.

 

[mishy66]

@mishy66
The birthdate used in the paper is stated the 8th June and in Templeuve France (as I understand it) (so one could argue it is not Tournai) and is using Fredy with one D.

This makes complete sense to me.

In 1942, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France when Fredy was born. (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.) They were probably also caring for their nephew, William (Willy Wonka)

1943 Death notice on 25-03-1943 for DESIRE DAVID 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, France and husband to a MARIA COPPENOLLE.

1943 Birth of Desire DAVID Jnr.


There is no "David" father returning from a Spanish civil war, being executed by Germans.

Wonka's real father (Robert Coppenolle) WAS captured by the Germans (probably as a resistance fighter) and was held as a political prisoner.
I have a feeling Robert abandoned his son after being released, and started a new life with his Italian bride.

Yes RC certainly was captured / reason on his documentation "secret information" so yep resistance fighter and when released started his life with his new wife and step daughter.
His address at the time stated ...... ? de Passy Froyennes.

 

[MrsWattle]

He was a horse rider, Something popped up tonight and I thought about Ballina Coin business name change to Clarendon Hill Investments. I'm wondering if RB is running some type of Racehorse investment scheme. It would be right up his alley scamming wealthy. That world is quite clicky, risky and can be corrupt (The Fine Cotton Affair being an example).

This race track is near Blue Mountains NSW at a place called Clarendon.

https://www.hawkesburyraceclub.com.au/

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

FdH used Hazel Rd as his address in 1986 on his incoming passenger card from the Philippines (coming home to spray the weeds )
63-69 Hazel Rd sold in Oct 1988 63-69 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
A few blocks on Hazel Rd sold in the 80's, this may have been when the land was first released for sale after a subdivision of a much larger piece of land on Hazel Rd?
May 1988 38-46 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
June 1988 43-53 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Jan 1987 48-54 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Feb 1976 (when FdH & DW married probs just a coincidence) 74-88 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 - realestate.com.au
Mar 1987 (again in 1990) 103-115 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1990 (again in 1991) 106-116 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Mar 1987 117-121 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
Aug 1985 118-122 Hazel Road, Tamborine, Qld 4270 (realestate.com.au)
And a few more first sold in the late 70's.

Thank you!!!

 

[Carovb5]

Thanks!
07 june 1942 Freddy David born (sentenced)
08 june 1942 - Fredy David born (birth announcement)

Although the 1 day difference is a bit funny, i think we cant rule one of them out

In Belgium, in that period, people had longer, reffering to dads, grandpa’s,… names , but were called differently. For example:
Freddy/Fredy might come from:
- Frederic
- Frederick
- Alfred
- Fernand
-…
Willy can come from:
- William
- Wilfried
-Willem
- Wilhelm
my guess is: on his birth certificat he won’t be named Fredy/Freddy and Willy.

I kinda had to giggle when searching for a “Alfred David” (looking if Freddy/Fredy was maybe short for Alfred).

Very special guy, a Alfred David from Belgium (changed his name to Alfred Penguin) who walked around dressed as a penguin, after hurting his hip in an accident.
Not related, but i was getting thoughts of getting him up on the stand as a witness, as this case seems to get crazier by the day. If some of you need a bid of a laugh in between the sadness & seriousness here, laughter guaranteed

 

[gymtonic]

Yes RC certainly was captured / reason on his documentation "secret information" so yep resistance fighter and when released started his life with his new wife and step daughter.
His address at the time stated ...... ? de Passy Froyennes.

It looks like Près de Passy Froyennes to me (eng. near de Passy) but there is a Pensionnat de Passy, a religious boarding school that was established in Froyennes, Tournai in 1905 based on the one in Paris.

 

[ruby925]

Still reading about all the 'orphans' in Belgium around the time of WW2. It was estimated that only 50% of Jews registered their religion in Belgium, in Holland it was 95% as registration happened before the war. Sadly, the survivor rates reflect the difference. So, trying to find RB might be impossible, he may not be of Jewish heritage anyway, lots of children had their names changed, they were moved around and there were so many in orphanages.
So is the consensus on here then that RB is the son of RC, but the name of the mother is unknown?. And that he possibly then went to live with his Aunt MC, who he believed was his mother?

 

[ruby925]

Still reading about all the 'orphans' in Belgium around the time of WW2. It was estimated that only 50% of Jews registered their religion in Belgium, in Holland it was 95% as registration happened before the war. Sadly, the survivor rates reflect the difference. So, trying to find RB might be impossible, he may not be of Jewish heritage anyway, lots of children had their names changed, they were moved around and there were so many in orphanages.
So is the consensus on here then that RB is the son of RC, but the name of the mother is unknown?. And that he possibly then went to live with his Aunt MC, who he believed was his mother?

Also RC info shows Roman Catholic as religion, may or may not be true given the circumstances.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Not sure if this has been seen before but if you go to page 34 there is a photo which may be of some interest and if it’s who I think it is this answers a few of my questions

https://www.hesperschoulen.lu/resources/pdf/Schoulbuet0809/Schoulbuet0809.pdf

 

[ruby925]

Yes RC certainly was captured / reason on his documentation "secret information" so yep resistance fighter and when released started his life with his new wife and step daughter.
His address at the time stated ...... ? de Passy Froyennes.

I am wondering about the people he named on page 2 of that document who can vouch for him. I can't decipher the first name, someone living on the Rue de la Gare, Froyennes. Could that be the fiance (or connected) as RC may not have know her whereabouts/situation before being released?
Mishy referenced your pic, hope that's ok
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/a-2-jpg.337816/