Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[gymtonic]

I wonder how RB acquired a drivers license in name FNR. He would have to have shown some documentation. Did he create a fake birth certificate? Steal real documents? He definitely seems to have access to fake/doctored documents. I’ve wondered if he created these himself or if he just knew where to get them.

IMO RB has all the ingredients necessary to create the fake documents himself:

1. He actually says during the inquest that early on he was introduced to someone in Belgium who knew how to create fake documents + criminal history = CONTACTS IN THE WORLD OF FORGERY
2. His attendance at the Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts (could be a false story of course) + evening job designing templates for wall tapestry = ARTISTIC AND DESIGN SKILLS
3. His "Marketing/advertising company" = GRAPHIC DESIGN SKILLS AND ACCESS TO PRINTING METHODS
   
4. Ongoing "occupation" as a photographer = IMAGE PRODUCTION AND MANIPULATION SKILLS

All this equals IMO someone with the complete skill set!

 

[MrsWattle]

Yes DD.. I hope so too

if I was one of the kids I’d be so shell shocked I doubt I’d be speaking to him

If I was one of his kids I'd be screaming at him to tell the truth. I'd be furious that he love-scammed and financially abused women including his 4 or 5 wives while denying having his other kids and forgetting their names. I'd be absolutely angry demanding to know how many brothers and sisters I have. I'd be doing ancestry DNA for sure!
I'd be extremely embarrassed! I'd be seeking justice for his victims and then getting psychological help on how to recover from Narcissistic parental abuse. He has led a lifestyle of taking all he can get, a cycle of power and control over his victims, abusing emotionally, physically, spiritually and financially. I hope everyone who ever had dealings with him comes forward now. And when Marion Barter inquest resumes I hope the main question is answered. Where is Marion?

 

[MrsWattle]

Double

 

[mishy66]

Really? Do some people think this is about some type of mafia style organised crime ?
I guess if people are able to obtain false documents for themselves and also have a market for stolen documents, they are linked into a criminal underworld. That then goes more towards drugs trafficking and supply as well as shifting around 'hot' items of value such as jewels and artwork.

All roads lead to Ponzi and trafficking in my eyes.

It's the only logical explanation IMO

IF wonks was just a small town player of scamming vulnerable womens deeds and jewels here in Australia then why the need for 30+ aliases, a "business " set up prior to his entry into Australia in 1969, travelling separately from those he knows, dozens of companies in various names all "over the world" that all seem to last 12 mths before starting another, a wife who has "no idea" whats going on *cough*, a daughter born in Lux for a purpose, various home addresses on entry passenger lists..... " deflection", a family history of criminals, born in a time where false passports are like candy wrappers, showing no "OBVIOUS" signs of wealth here in Australia, married into a family of wealth it seems although RGW mother died a 'pensioner' living with him and Peggy.

1971 "Meets" a 19 yr girl on a ship bound for Aust when he is 31 and her family just happen to allow him to stay with them, a family who has considerable wealth allowing a 31 yr old man """they dont know""" and who introduces himself as Willy Wonks but is travelling on a card that states Fredy David and as DdeH says "he was willy wonks but I always called him ric/rick".
She waits for him for 4 yrs to do a prison sentence after returning OS and in 1976 get married....His 4th wife.....and changes his name to FdeH 8 days prior to the wedding.....

The SAME YEAR IK arrives back into Aust.

They leave for OS the same yr and he is again arrested in Brussels and goes to prison.
and DdeH pleads innocent to her husbands dealings.

Please. It is ALL a slice of a much bigger pie.
Still going with the idea there is 2 of them!
IMO

 

[gymtonic]

Really? Do some people think this is about some type of mafia style organised crime ?
I guess if people are able to obtain false documents for themselves and also have a market for stolen documents, they are linked into a criminal underworld. That then goes more towards drugs trafficking and supply as well as shifting around 'hot' items of value such as jewels and artwork.

IMO yes, the picture he presents to me is of someone who moves in those circles. As I've said before not everyone connected with OC is a Mastermind, there are many bit players who start off with petty crime that escalate, and who are drawn in for specific skills and tasks!

 

[gymtonic]

I had thought he had stolen the real FNR's international driving license and from that he was able to get a QLD license. Now not sure that is correct.

IMO he faked the International DL and banked on Australian authorities not being on top of recognising fakes. National DL regulation was only introduced by the Federal government in 1997, prior to that, Transport (being a state responsibility) was disjointed and more easily fooled I would guess. A practiced forger knows how the systems work and where the loopholes are. Identity theft has a well known process of cascading document "acquisition" to forge new identities.

 

[mishy66]

IMO RB has all the ingredients necessary to create the fake documents himself:

1. He actually says during the inquest that early on he was introduced to someone in Belgium who knew how to create fake documents + criminal history = CONTACTS IN THE WORLD OF FORGERY
2. His attendance at the Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts (could be a false story of course) + evening job designing templates for wall tapestry = ARTISTIC AND DESIGN SKILLS
3. His "Marketing/advertising company" = SKILLS AND ACCESS TO PRINTING METHODS
   
4. Ongoing "occupation" as a photographer = IMAGE PRODUCTION AND MANIPULATION SKILLS

All this equals IMO someone with the complete skill set!

Number 2 - I posted up a link etc about this much earlier.
I believe he didnt do anything of the sort.
Just something he found and it sat with his tall tale.

 

[gymtonic]

Number 2 - I posted up a link etc about this much earlier.
I believe he didnt do anything of the sort.
Just something he found and it sat with his tall tale.

Elements of truth are the fundamental principles of telling (and getting away with) a lie. This from an earlier post:
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

 

[mishy66]

Some people don't care at all about their husbands and see them as a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of running a home and raising their children. Who knows?

However, my personal belief is she impersonated Marion in the defunding the bank account.

Yes and lets not forget DdeH was with him with he is arrested the yr they go OS after getting married.
They return 2 yrs later yet immigration believe he was in and out of Aust during that time without DdeH.
She even lied at inquest saying she had not left Australia since 1986 but went OS in 1994 for daughters wedding.
They are all liars IMO

 

[mishy66]

Elements of truth are the fundamental principles of telling (and getting away with) a lie. This from an earlier post:
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

Yes I remember your post about that and it is what got me on the hunt for wonks and tapestries .
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

If you do a find through the book you will see a Maria Coppenolle ( not his stepmother)

 

[mishy66]

IMO he faked the International DL and banked on Australian authorities not being on top of recognising fakes. National DL regulation was only introduced by the Federal government in 1997, prior to that, Transport (being a state responsibility) was disjointed and more easily fooled I would guess. A practiced forger knows how the systems work and where the loopholes are. Identity theft has a well known process of cascading document "acquisition" to forge new identities.

Agree. And RC was a resistance fighter. They specialised in all kinds of forgeries in assisting Jewish people. I was reading about one man, Kaminsky, who alone saved over 14000 Jews and continued to forge papers for 30 years afterwards. They were Masters at the craft.

 

[gymtonic]

Yep I’ve got a foot in both scenarios.. either ignored because he’s the narcissist and she knows not to ask about business. And keeps her head in the sand and quietly carries on with family duties.
Or she knows exactly who he is and exactly what he does and what he’s done.

She knew his past and that didn’t stop her from marrying him.

IMO she certainly knows a lot more than she revealed at inquest. Too many weird responses that ‘felt’ like lies.

JMO

The red flag for me was at inquest when AKA was asked about his criminal history list and he fessed up immediately to the "cheque without cover" incident. IMO this is another part of the conman's arsenal, which is "when caught, fess up to the lesser crime and this distracts people from delving further". Now this obviously doesn't work with authorities but it does often work with gullible and naive people. wind the clock back to their early days and IMO DdH could have been such a person at 19/20. Obviously AKA realises that he can't deny completely that he has been arrested and is in prison, but from a distance he can spin a "tall tale" that it's not as bad as it seems....I made a mistake and got caught up in a bad crowd...it was a minor offence...etc. Maybe DdH could even be fooled into thinking that he must be fundamentally an honest person because he fessed up? who knows? it's not unheard of when people are infatuated by seemingly "exotic" partners. It is IMO and JIMO an alternative explanation which, when followed by years of gaslighting, could lead to her turning a blind eye to (or seeing an alternative perspective on) anything suspicious?

 

[centred]

The red flag for me was at inquest when AKA was asked about his criminal history list and he fessed up immediately to the "cheque without cover" incident. IMO this is another part of the conman's arsenal, which is "when caught, fess up to the lesser crime and this distracts people from delving further". Now this obviously doesn't work with authorities but it does often work with gullible and naive people. wind the clock back to their early days and IMO DdH could have been such a person at 19/20. Obviously AKA realises that he can't deny completely that he has been arrested and is in prison, but from a distance he can spin a "tall tale" that it's not as bad as it seems....I made a mistake and got caught up in a bad crowd...it was a minor offence...etc. Maybe DdH could even be fooled into thinking that he must be fundamentally an honest person because he fessed up? who knows? it's not unheard of when people are infatuated by seemingly "exotic" partners. It is IMO and JIMO an alternative explanation which, when followed by years of gaslighting, could lead to her turning a blind eye to (or seeing an alternative perspective on) anything suspicious?

Just an observation about DdH at the inquest , to me it seemed she had problems with tense as in present , past , answers were hard to decipher maybe because she actually does have a disability with memory understanding and articulation . IMO RC seemed to be aware of some sort of issue when he was asking questions to her . And i tend to agree "gas lighting and liars are very proficient with convincing others they imagine things if they question anything.

If DdH ever did anything to assist , other than stay at home and mind the children s lives and according to sources he was hardly ever home , she was most likely coerced in some way or another to assist . IMO if he is ever charged and convicted they will not have much of a case re her involvement unless she actually confesses to doing so willingly .

 

[centred]

All roads lead to Ponzi and trafficking in my eyes.

It's the only logical explanation IMO

IF wonks was just a small town player of scamming vulnerable womens deeds and jewels here in Australia then why the need for 30+ aliases, a "business " set up prior to his entry into Australia in 1969, travelling separately from those he knows, dozens of companies in various names all "over the world" that all seem to last 12 mths before starting another, a wife who has "no idea" whats going on *cough*, a daughter born in Lux for a purpose, various home addresses on entry passenger lists..... " deflection", a family history of criminals, born in a time where false passports are like candy wrappers, showing no "OBVIOUS" signs of wealth here in Australia, married into a family of wealth it seems although RGW mother died a 'pensioner' living with him and Peggy.

1971 "Meets" a 19 yr girl on a ship bound for Aust when he is 31 and her family just happen to allow him to stay with them, a family who has considerable wealth allowing a 31 yr old man """they dont know""" and who introduces himself as Willy Wonks but is travelling on a card that states Fredy David and as DdeH says "he was willy wonks but I always called him ric/rick".
She waits for him for 4 yrs to do a prison sentence after returning OS and in 1976 get married....His 4th wife.....and changes his name to FdeH 8 days prior to the wedding.....

The SAME YEAR IK arrives back into Aust.

They leave for OS the same yr and he is again arrested in Brussels and goes to prison.
and DdeH pleads innocent to her husbands dealings.

Please. It is ALL a slice of a much bigger pie.
Still going with the idea there is 2 of them!
IMO

I don't know that trafficking/ponzi is the "only" logical explanation IMO

Possibly a ponzi along side the scamming women and others for ill gotten gains , the many alias and forging were part of the MO of those scams as that has been obvious .

Many people in relationships can have NO idea what their partners have been up too , that is a given IMO

I am not so sure he introduced himself as WW , I think she called him Rick because at that time she believed him to be Ric , I do not know if they met long before the boat but during a 3 month LONG trip had time to get to know each other and family on board , so by the time they reach Australia i can see no issue with inviting him to stay , it was later when she found out he went by that name that she refused to call him anyone but Ric and still does as far as i know . IMO she answered that question in confusion and had problems separating memories and misunderstanding the timing of questions . She was vague because imo she is vague and has been for a long time .

and she may have been aware of his jail time and wrote to him because she was obviously smitten and i cannot make an assumption her parents wouldn't approve .

We also must remember that accusing people on here is a slippery slope ....

Time will tell on these things , I am personally being considered , considering at this stage it is a coronial inquiry into a missing person and what happened to that person.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Just an observation about DdH at the inquest , to me it seemed she had problems with tense as in present , past , answers were hard to decipher maybe because she actually does have a disability with memory understanding and articulation . IMO RC seemed to be aware of some sort of issue when he was asking questions to her . And i tend to agree "gas lighting and liars are very proficient with convincing others they imagine things if they question anything.

If DdH ever did anything to assist , other than stay at home and mind the children s lives and according to sources he was hardly ever home , she was most likely coerced in some way or another to assist . IMO if he is ever charged and convicted they will not have much of a case re her involvement unless she actually confesses to doing so willingly .

Years of gaslighting can affect your ability to think for yourself. Your opinions don’t exist and over time you don’t even think about opinions. It becomes normal to rely on the narcissist to provide everything to you, including how you think.
I agree she did appear unable to concentrate that could be a memory problem however a google page of a condition to me sounds like Wonka trying to insist she has one to cover any discrepancies in their timeline and stories. If there was a legitimate reason it would have been brought to the attention of all parties before her taking the stand.
I saw a woman who has no voice and when put on the spot was unable to communicate. I wondered if she was medicated which under the circumstances would be understandable. I always wondered if she was just niaive.

I believe she knows elements but I also believe as stated earlier she is broken from years of being with a man who clearly is a narcissist and has controlled their live. He has let her down time and time again..and this just appeared to be another moment in her life where the rug was pulled completely out from under her. Her reactions and answers are confused because she has lost her voice and she is broken. There may also be elements of her trying to remember what she was ‘perhaps’ coached to say.
Overall I saw a woman who was ashamed, embarrassed of her husbands behaviour and it certainly felt to me that these feeling were not new that she had experienced this before.

I don’t know if she was involved with what happened to Marion maybe .. maybe not, however IMO she has reaped benefits or financial gain over the years from his scamming. And hasn’t questioned because she knows she will be lied to and what is the point.

I suspect the person she is now is not the person she was when meeting him. That person is gone and what’s left is the fallout of being involved with a man like him.

I don’t think any of us can truly judge what it would be like to be gaslighted for 40 years. But IMO I would be a broken shell of a person.

 

[Estelle]

Just an observation about DdH at the inquest , to me it seemed she had problems with tense as in present , past , answers were hard to decipher maybe because she actually does have a disability with memory understanding and articulation . IMO RC seemed to be aware of some sort of issue when he was asking questions to her . And i tend to agree "gas lighting and liars are very proficient with convincing others they imagine things if they question anything.

If DdH ever did anything to assist , other than stay at home and mind the children s lives and according to sources he was hardly ever home , she was most likely coerced in some way or another to assist . IMO if he is ever charged and convicted they will not have much of a case re her involvement unless she actually confesses to doing so willingly .

IMO if DdH had anything to do with impersonating Marion, RB will put DdH under the bus immediately.

Why do you think that RB said at the Inquest that he left MB's ad around the house for DdH to see?

 

[mishy66]

I don't know that trafficking/ponzi is the "only" logical explanation IMO

Possibly a ponzi along side the scamming women and others for ill gotten gains , the many alias and forging were part of the MO of those scams as that has been obvious .

Many people in relationships can have NO idea what their partners have been up too , that is a given IMO

I am not so sure he introduced himself as WW , I think she called him Rick because at that time she believed him to be Ric , I do not know if they met long before the boat but during a 3 month LONG trip had time to get to know each other and family on board , so by the time they reach Australia i can see no issue with inviting him to stay , it was later when she found out he went by that name that she refused to call him anyone but Ric and still does as far as i know . IMO she answered that question in confusion and had problems separating memories and misunderstanding the timing of questions . She was vague because imo she is vague and has been for a long time .

and she may have been aware of his jail time and wrote to him because she was obviously smitten and i cannot make an assumption her parents wouldn't approve .

We also must remember that accusing people on here is a slippery slope ....

Time will tell on these things , I am personally being considered , considering at this stage it is a coronial inquiry into a missing person and what happened to that person.

I didn't "accuse" anyone.
I said IMO . Twice I put it in fact.

We all have our own opinions, and all opinions are valid.

IMO she was 'vague' because she was drugged - valium probably to get her through the inquest as I noted she never stopped drinking water - a side effect of for some people. ALL IMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Eyespywithmylittleeye, a very insightful post.

You've put everything I was thinking into words.


QUOTE="Eyespywithmylittleeye, post: 17523589, member: 302078"]I suspect the person she is now is not the person she was when meeting him. That person is gone and what’s left is the fallout of being involved with a man like him.

I don’t think any of us can truly judge what it would be like to be gaslighted for 40 years. But IMO I would be a broken shell of a person.[/QUOTE]

 

[gymtonic]

Just on the topic of Driver Licences, this is a useful source for Queensland DLs (and would be different, but maybe similar, for each oz state and territory) About Queensland driver licence cards
I suspect that there won't be much AKA movement in terms of DL forgery after 2010, given the timelines here. Earlier than 1986, this would probably be a piece of cake for forgers. Even laminated cards would be comparatively easy with Photographic, graphic design and printing skills/ access. Post-2010 with embedded chips, holographic tech...not so much!

 

[centred]

I didn't "accuse" anyone.
I said IMO . Twice I put it in fact.

We all have our own opinions, and all opinions are valid.

IMO she was 'vague' because she was drugged - valium probably to get her through the inquest as I noted she never stopped drinking water - a side effect of for some people. ALL IMO

Mishy I am not accusing you of anything , I suggested a reasonable fact that we have to be careful about insinuation of any sort , of course we all have opinions , some re more valid than others at times , my point is it does not need judgement as this can be construed as accusing and just to be aware of any repercussions for our own good . Sorry if you felt otherwise .