Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[mishy66]

IMO coming to Australia in 1969 was no accident; it was well researched. In 1969, Australia was seen by some Europeans as somewhat of a backwater, a place where you could almost disappear, where the authorities were less diligent and laid back. RB already knew how to work the system here and within days of arrival on a holiday visa, he applied for residency citing his migrant "wife", Ilona.
Like all con-men, RB did his research; he planned ahead, trying to anticipate his victims actions and have escape plans ready to go. I believe that living in Australia formed a large part of his escape plans for frauds committed in Europe, many of which are yet to be discovered as @Nnbee said.
His biggest mistake was Marion. Although his scam succeeded and he covered his tracks well, he could not have anticipated or planned for the unrelenting determination of a daughter to find her mother.
IMO, we are yet to see the full extent of the damage caused by this greedy, immoral sociopath.

Totally agree with you BonnieB

 

[mishy66]

I think I read that the name originated from a German knight who was granted a domain in western Hungary way, way back. I suspect Hedervary was his mother's surname (or heritage) and Coppenolle his father's. He has kept the Coppenolle name 'clean' as far as I can find and it appears that these two names seem to have the most meaning for him.

LOL @BonnieB you are posting my theories

 

[mishy66]

Would the name de Hedervary and variants have their origins in Hungary?

I absolutely agree they do !

 

[BonnieB]

LOL @BonnieB you are posting my theories

You know what they say about great minds

 

[Tiff23fr]

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[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I wonder if anyone shares my doubts that RB is actually Belgium born?

 

[BonnieB]

I wonder if anyone shares my doubts that RB is actually Belgium born?

Do tell, Lord Peter!
German perhaps??

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I wouldn't believe anything he's ever said, without proper evidence. His word is not enough, in my opinion.

 

[Carovb5]

I wonder if anyone shares my doubts that RB is actually Belgium born?

I posted this too a few months ago. He doesn’t look & sound from Belgium. But then again, in this moment of time where almost everyone has ancestors from all over the world, we can’t tell someones homecountry by looks & voice.
I don’t trust anything he says + being born in or around a World war makes it even more difficult (people fled or grew up with other families or in orphanages).
I do am very curious if you have better reasons than me to think he isn’t Belgian. I’m so in awe of everything you guys find and your theories. It’s such an intriguing case!

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Do tell, Lord Peter!
German perhaps?

It’s the story he tells of his early years. On the 1st day of questioning he couldn’t confirm categorically either of his parents were his.

His alleged birth father came back from the Spanish Civil War (ended April 1939) and was then arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943 or 1944. RB must have been conceived during the Spanish Civil War if born July 1939.

His alleged mother being taken by German ambulance to have her legs amputated around 1942. Wasn’t one of his alleged brothers born round that time? Why did RB go to a ‘war’ orphanage until 1951? Where were his brothers? Were they actually brothers considering they had different surnames to him?

His double amputee mother remarrying AW in 1951 who serves in ‘occupied’ Germany until 1956 11 years after WW2 had ended. RB says he also lives in Germany until 1956. 1956 is the year of the Hungarian uprising.

RB states all the birth records were bombed and destroyed.

Sorry if that is a bit garbled but until some member of his Belgium family comes forward I still have a suspicion he isn’t a Belgian at all.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I posted this too a few months ago. He doesn’t look & sound from Belgium. But then again, in this moment of time where almost everyone has ancestors from all over the world, we can’t tell someones homecountry by looks & voice.
I don’t trust anything he says + being born in or around a World war makes it even more difficult (people fled or grew up with other families or in orphanages).
I do am very curious if you have better reasons than me to think he isn’t Belgian. I’m so in awe of everything you guys find and your theories. It’s such an intriguing case!

I think his father was Belgian but don’t believe his mother was. Have wondered if he is Hungarian or German

 

[BonnieB]

It’s the story he tells of his early years. On the 1st day of questioning he couldn’t confirm categorically either of his parents were his.

His alleged birth father came back from the Spanish Civil War (ended April 1939) and was then arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943 or 1944. RB must have been conceived during the Spanish Civil War if born July 1939.

His alleged mother being taken by German ambulance to have her legs amputated around 1942. Wasn’t one of his alleged brothers born round that time? Why did RB go to a ‘war’ orphanage until 1951? Where were his brothers? Were they actually brothers considering they had different surnames to him?

His double amputee mother remarrying AW in 1951 who serves in ‘occupied’ Germany until 1956 11 years after WW2 had ended. RB says he also lives in Germany until 1956. 1956 is the year of the Hungarian uprising.

RB states all the birth records were bombed and destroyed.

Sorry if that is a bit garbled but until some member of his Belgium family comes forward I still have a suspicion he isn’t a Belgian at all.

A story indeed, Lord Peter. A few facts, stir gently and add lots of fiction. Mix well and bake till believed.

I too, have trouble believing the vague rubbish he told the court but thanks to the hard work of sleuths such as @mishy66, my theory is...

1.His parents are Robert Coppenolle (Brother of Maria) and his unnamed resistance fighter fiance, who was captured and died in a German concentration camp. Robert was also captured but survived in Buchenwald camp. He suffered an accident & spinal injuries that left him an invalid.
Exactly where William Coppenolle was born is anyone's guess as is his maternal ancestry (Hungarian, German or Polish).
Contrary to RB's evidence, files etc were removed from Tournai Register office to Mons BEFORE the bombing of Tournai in 1943, so were not destroyed.

2. RB (Willy) was sent as an infant to live with Maria (his aunt) who was married to Desire David.

3. 7/6/1942 Birth of a son, Freddy to Maria in Templeuve, (near French border).

4. Birth of a son, Desire Jnr. to Maria & Desire

5. DEATH NOTICE: 25/3/1943 Desire David age 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, Tournai and husband to Maria Coppenolle.
(There is no Spanish War or German execution and Desire was not his father)

6. Alleged bomb dropped on Maria's Tournai home, injuring her legs.

7. Willy Coppenolle, aged (almost 4) was sent to an orphanage or boarding school in Belgium????
This can't be confirmed so it could be just more fairy floss.

The 'occupied Germany' term I thought was meant as 'occupied by allied troops' after the war.

After Maria's marriage to Abel Wouters in 1950, RB adopted the Wouters name.
You will notice in all of his testimony he refers to Maria as "the mother" not "my mother". I have a feeling there is a lot of resentment there.

 

[mishy66]

It’s the story he tells of his early years. On the 1st day of questioning he couldn’t confirm categorically either of his parents were his.

His alleged birth father came back from the Spanish Civil War (ended April 1939) and was then arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943 or 1944. RB must have been conceived during the Spanish Civil War if born July 1939.

His alleged mother being taken by German ambulance to have her legs amputated around 1942. Wasn’t one of his alleged brothers born round that time? Why did RB go to a ‘war’ orphanage until 1951? Where were his brothers? Were they actually brothers considering they had different surnames to him?

His double amputee mother remarrying AW in 1951 who serves in ‘occupied’ Germany until 1956 11 years after WW2 had ended. RB says he also lives in Germany until 1956. 1956 is the year of the Hungarian uprising.

RB states all the birth records were bombed and destroyed.

Sorry if that is a bit garbled but until some member of his Belgium family comes forward I still have a suspicion he isn’t a Belgian at all.

All valid questions and an interesting outlook @Lord Peter Flimsy

As far as I am concerned anything that comes out of his mouth is all BS sprinkled with grains of truths if it ties in with any evidence he has read in those volumes at inquest.

Dianne under oath said Maria C was his aunt. (I also do not for a minute believe they stayed with Maria, Andre and any brothers when they visited in the 70s. )


Marias own father was a decorated war hero - Charles Louis Coppenolle
Military Decoration Victory Medal and Commemorative Medal for the 1914-1918 War - and a market gardener .
His wife Julie Foulon was a dressmaker and hosiery trader and respected lady - she was reported as finding a big bag of silver and handing it into the police. Her family were seamstresses and chocolatiers.
Wealthy family who no doubt had community respect.

Maria's first husband Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David was a car driver / chauffeur in Templeuve when he died aged 37 in 1943. He was also a thief.

In 1942, ONE YEAR before Desire dies, Freddy is born, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.)

Desiree David jnr– 1943 ( not confirmed) - born the year the father dies. Still alive.

1950, 7 years later Maria marries Abel /Andre Wouters /Wauters / Florent ( if you take into all the names given at inquest).

Abel/ Andre born in May 1923 HOLLAND making him 11 years younger than Maria and 12 years older than Willy Coppenolle - ( I believe is his real name)
Andre worked in the smelter in Dormund Germany. ( hello diecast maker) where he had a accident in 1944.

He was a thief and Army volunteer at the time of marriage in 1950.

Interestingly Andre and friend Mestdagh are on a ship to Canada mid 50s and the name Mestdagh also comes up just prior to Ik and WW coming into Australia and where they are staying on arrival........

The one thing in his favour are the facts as you point out - During WW2 the whole area was occupied by the Germans so it would be unlikely to find much evidence of his birth records. Maybe LE have found it though!!!

I have never believed he is WW. He is a criminal and a liar. He used that name WW at age 30 when he came into Australia and his life of crime and use of aliases started in his teens. Using his brothers name Freddy - who died back in the 60s.(IMO)

He pretty much said at the inquest Maria wasnt his mother when he announced "THE WOMAN I KNEW AS MY MOTHER’ .

He has complete disregard for women. This could be because he was put in the boarding school / or an orphanage by his mother /father at the time of war.

My firm belief is his father is Robert C ( born in England) and his mother either the finacee of Robert ( who were both sent to the camps) and who died in the concentration camp just before liberation OR his mother is deHedervary. ( read into that as you will - lots of evidence to suggest)

The pivitol point in your theory @Lord Peter Flimsy is the 1956 uprising of Hungary.
This is where I believe the crossing of Kinczel family and the C / deH family member/ members meet, be it through work or displacement of refugees.

1958 to 1960 - Ilona residence is 155 Chaussee de Waure Bruxelles 5 - her parents address as stated on her IM App Form

And this is what changed the course of him coming out to Australia eventually. IMO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Brilliant

All valid questions and an interesting outlook @Lord Peter Flimsy

As far as I am concerned anything that comes out of his mouth is all BS sprinkled with grains of truths if it ties in with any evidence he has read in those volumes at inquest.

Dianne under oath said Maria C was his aunt. (I also do not for a minute believe they stayed with Maria, Andre and any brothers when they visited in the 70s. )


Marias own father was a decorated war hero - Charles Louis Coppenolle
Military Decoration Victory Medal and Commemorative Medal for the 1914-1918 War - and a market gardener .
His wife Julie Foulon was a dressmaker and hosiery trader and respected lady - she was reported as finding a big bag of silver and handing it into the police. Her family were seamstresses and chocolatiers.
Wealthy family who no doubt had community respect.

Maria's first husband Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David was a car driver / chauffeur in Templeuve when he died aged 37 in 1943. He was also a thief.

In 1942, ONE YEAR before Desire dies, Freddy is born, Desire & Maria DAVID were living in Templeuve, France (Approx 22kms from Tournai and 18kms from Lille.)

Desiree David jnr– 1943 ( not confirmed) - born the year the father dies. Still alive.

1950, 7 years later Maria marries Abel /Andre Wouters /Wauters / Florent ( if you take into all the names given at inquest).

Abel/ Andre born in May 1923 HOLLAND making him 11 years younger than Maria and 12 years older than Willy Coppenolle - ( I believe is his real name)
Andre worked in the smelter in Dormund Germany. ( hello diecast maker) where he had a accident in 1944.

He was a thief and Army volunteer at the time of marriage in 1950.

Interestingly Andre and friend Mestdagh are on a ship to Canada mid 50s and the name Mestdagh also comes up just prior to Ik and WW coming into Australia and where they are staying on arrival........

The one thing in his favour are the facts as you point out - During WW2 the whole area was occupied by the Germans so it would be unlikely to find much evidence of his birth records. Maybe LE have found it though!!!

I have never believed he is WW. He is a criminal and a liar. He used that name WW at age 30 when he came into Australia and his life of crime and use of aliases started in his teens. Using his brothers name Freddy - who died back in the 60s.(IMO)

He pretty much said at the inquest Maria wasnt his mother when he announced "THE WOMAN I KNEW AS MY MOTHER’ .

He has complete disregard for women. This could be because he was put in the boarding school / or an orphanage by his mother /father at the time of war.

My firm belief is his father is Robert C ( born in England) and his mother either the finacee of Robert ( who were both sent to the camps) and who died in the concentration camp just before liberation OR his mother is deHedervary. ( read into that as you will - lots of evidence to suggest)

The pivitol point in your theory @Lord Peter Flimsy is the 1956 uprising of Hungary.
This is where I believe the crossing of Kinczel family and the C / deH family member/ members meet, be it through work or displacement of refugees.

1958 to 1960 - Ilona residence is 155 Chaussee de Waure Bruxelles 5 - her parents address as stated on her IM App Form

And this is what changed the course of him coming out to Australia eventually. Imo

Brilliant summary thanks Mishy and very interesting. Surely someone who knew him back in the 50s & 60s can unravel his story further.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

A story indeed, Lord Peter. A few facts, stir gently and add lots of fiction. Mix well and bake till believed.

I too, have trouble believing the vague rubbish he told the court but thanks to the hard work of sleuths such as @mishy66, my theory is...

1.His parents are Robert Coppenolle (Brother of Maria) and his unnamed resistance fighter fiance, who was captured and died in a German concentration camp. Robert was also captured but survived in Buchenwald camp. He suffered an accident & spinal injuries that left him an invalid.
Exactly where William Coppenolle was born is anyone's guess as is his maternal ancestry (Hungarian, German or Polish).
Contrary to RB's evidence, files etc were removed from Tournai Register office to Mons BEFORE the bombing of Tournai in 1943, so were not destroyed.

2. RB (Willy) was sent as an infant to live with Maria (his aunt) who was married to Desire David.

3. 7/6/1942 Birth of a son, Freddy to Maria in Templeuve, (near French border).

4. Birth of a son, Desire Jnr. to Maria & Desire

5. DEATH NOTICE: 25/3/1943 Desire David age 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, Tournai and husband to Maria Coppenolle.
(There is no Spanish War or German execution and Desire was not his father)

6. Alleged bomb dropped on Maria's Tournai home, injuring her legs.

7. Willy Coppenolle, aged (almost 4) was sent to an orphanage or boarding school in Belgium????
This can't be confirmed so it could be just more fairy floss.

The 'occupied Germany' term I thought was meant as 'occupied by allied troops' after the war.

After Maria's marriage to Abel Wouters in 1950, RB adopted the Wouters name.
You will notice in all of his testimony he refers to Maria as "the mother" not "my mother". I have a feeling there is a lot of resentment there.

Sorry Bonnie. I’m having trouble with the new Webseluths on my mobile. Thank you for that very interesting and informative reply

 

[Martinie]

I don't know how to check, but it'd be interesting to look for a list of unidentified remains found around Goulburn or something?

 

[BonnieB]

I don't know how to check, but it'd be interesting to look for a list of unidentified remains found around Goulburn or something?

Somehow, I can't imagine anyone driving 1000km to dispose of a body when there are thousands of acres of bush within 50km. What makes you suspect the Goulburn area?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Somehow, I can't imagine anyone driving 1000km to dispose of a body when there are thousands of acres of bush within 50km. What makes you suspect the Goulburn area?

Grafton maybe ?

 

[BonnieB]

Grafton maybe ?

Definitely! Yamba and Nymboida areas too. Unfortunately, finding the remains is the hard part. Wherever Marion is, she has been undisturbed for 25 years.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Is this the same Robert C in this attached news article from the Croydon Times in the UK on the 19 June 1948?