Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[Estelle]

IMO that is significant to me as it suggests that MB wrote it and someone else found it and put it in the mail.

I took it to mean that no stamp or a local stamp was on the postcard.

 

[mishy66]

from TLV Facebook page -

posted by Joni

This is a single gold coin that was put up for Auction in March last year, 2021. It had a starting bid of $8,000. "Ex Collection of Mgr. Franz Ernst von Salm- Reifferscheid (1698-1770), Bishop of Tournai (1731-1770); to the collection of the Abbot Georges Dufour, cure of the Parish of St.Piat in Tournai (died 1939) by descent; acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).
Lot includes 3 page description of the coin and five (5) coloured photographs with enlargements x 2 of this coin and a copy of the Vinchon catalogue as an Auction Sale, 11 February 1963 illustrating another example of this coin, that notes six examples of the coin type known."
This is a coin from the "Coppenolle Collection", there are records dating back years of coins sold under this collection name in the public domain.


View attachment 349620

Try as I might I can not find a Abbot Georges Dufour, cure of the Parish of St.Piat in Tournai (died 1939) .....funny that the year is the same year AKA is born......

Closest one I can find:

Archbishop Dominique-Georges-Frédéric Dufour de Pradt [Catholic-Hierarchy]

Archbishop Dominique-Georges-Frédéric Dufour de Pradt

www.catholic-hierarchy.org

But I have to ask the Q, why would Charles C (acquired by grandfather (died 1949) - not sell some of these coins that have been advertised by AKA, when he was an invalid from the war and a market gardener and his wife a Hosiery trader.
With a tribe of kids why not cash in the coins IF they were with family - the family dont seem to be swimming in $$$ given the petty crimes committed by some of them.

IMO all these coins are probably fake made with die casts he seemed to know so much about.

 

[mishy66]

Very interesting to translate the descriptions on the photos. Google translate says that the language is Western Frisian. the final photo posted above has a translation from Google
"Description
The charters guild located in the "Lion of Flanders" celebrated its champion. This they probably did in the "Lion of Flanders" but the photo was taken for the occasion in front of the champion's house, viz. Maurice De Puydt. House De Puydt - Dewulf was a matter of timepieces and jewelry"
Seems Willy Coppenolle had an interest in jewellery at that time.

Maurice De Puydt was the jeweller

The people in the photograph with Maurice, won the cup for the carders' guild - weaving springs to mind!

 

[BonnieB]

Try as I might I can not find a Abbot Georges Dufour, cure of the Parish of St.Piat in Tournai (died 1939) .....funny that the year is the same year AKA is born......

Closest one I can find:

Archbishop Dominique-Georges-Frédéric Dufour de Pradt [Catholic-Hierarchy]

Archbishop Dominique-Georges-Frédéric Dufour de Pradt

www.catholic-hierarchy.org

But I have to ask the Q, why would Charles C (acquired by grandfather (died 1949) - not sell some of these coins that have been advertised by AKA, when he was an invalid from the war and a market gardener and his wife a Hosiery trader.
With a tribe of kids why not cash in the coins IF they were with family - the family dont seem to be swimming in $$$ given the petty crimes committed by some of them.

IMO all these coins are probably fake made with die casts he seemed to know so much about.

And why would grandfather leave his entire 'collection' to just one of his many children?
Come on RB, no-one believes any of your fairy tales!

 

[mishy66]

Very interesting to translate the descriptions on the photos. Google translate says that the language is Western Frisian. the final photo posted above has a translation from Google
"Description
The charters guild located in the "Lion of Flanders" celebrated its champion. This they probably did in the "Lion of Flanders" but the photo was taken for the occasion in front of the champion's house, viz. Maurice De Puydt. House De Puydt - Dewulf was a matter of timepieces and jewelry"
Seems Willy Coppenolle had an interest in jewellery at that time.

In the context of the article it is the championship being awarded to a player of cards , similar to blackjack. The article says that the photo was taken in front of the champion’s house.
I thought it was the carders' guild as in Carding of wool which is called kaarden.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Another good podcast. "PERSONA: The French Deception" about master French conman Gilbert Chikli. I just started it today, but off the bat, it poses several interesting ideas about successful cons that reminded me of MB and AKA.

One, that the conman creates a world so vivid that the mark falls head over heels into the world itself. A world of espionage, or new life, or coin dealing, or . . . . We think of it as a "con." But it's a skillful seduction and a carefully crafted creation of an alternative reality. (In MB's case, Luxembourg? or a UK school?)

Two, when a con is going on, the conman keeps the mark close and doesn't give them a chance to get away. Constant contact. Every minute, either in person or phone calls. (This might tell us something new about the timeline. Once AKA latched onto MB, what if he didn't leave her side or let her leave his until the money was won? Interesting to think about. Especially in UK and afterward in AUS.)

Three, even a successful conman makes many, many attempts just to get the few successes. Like a batting average. (This may be why no one has come forward? Because they didn't fall for AKA and forgot about it. The con starts out innocently enough, then escalates quickly if the mark is right.)

Four, a conman is more gambler than thief. The game's the thing and the risk involved.

 

[ruby925]

I am missing something very simple in the scenario of MB's name change and documents. MB changed her name by Deed Poll to FNMR and also travelled to UK under that name. What I don't understand is the international driving license used as supporting ID on her passport application. Was this the acquired license in the hands of RB? Had MB applied for a name change with her own license and therefore had her own IDL in the name of FNMR? Was MB's new identity/unusual name just down to using the dodgy FNR license? Or was it to circumvent any delay to the new passport issue awaiting the deed poll documents? I am sure you will all know the answer to this, so please help me, I just can't unravel it.

 

[mishy66]

I am missing something very simple in the scenario of MB's name change and documents. MB changed her name by Deed Poll to FNMR and also travelled to UK under that name. What I don't understand is the international driving license used as supporting ID on her passport application. Was this the acquired license in the hands of RB? Had MB applied for a name change with her own license and therefore had her own IDL in the name of FNMR? Was MB's new identity/unusual name just down to using the dodgy FNR license? Or was it to circumvent any delay to the new passport issue awaiting the deed poll documents? I am sure you will all know the answer to this, so please help me, I just can't unravel it.

At the inquest Smith representing SL, said that RB was so infatuated with MC, he was trying to relive the past, making himself FNR so Marion could be the substitute for MC.

Her FNR ID had a purpose overseas only IMO - she maybe didn't want any mail addressed to her in the name FNR in Aust OR he had a sole purpose to keep her new name for OS purposes only - like set up OS accounts using that name / Initials.

He had that license renewed 1992 and it expired Dec 1997 = he had a plan for that licence - he held it for 5 years before using that name to place the ad and then use the licence for his advantage in regard to Marion.

Smith asks him if he told Marion to get an international licence as part of her identity change. RB denied this.
In passport application, near Florabella’s signature -international licence is ticked as the ID shown to check signature. Smith alludes to RB using one of his international licences as proof of ID for Florabella’s passport.

Maybe others can add more.
It is tricky trying to sift the BS to the truth with him.

BTW - WHERE IS MARION !

 

[KiwiNZ]

I am missing something very simple in the scenario of MB's name change and documents. MB changed her name by Deed Poll to FNMR and also travelled to UK under that name. What I don't understand is the international driving license used as supporting ID on her passport application. Was this the acquired license in the hands of RB? Had MB applied for a name change with her own license and therefore had her own IDL in the name of FNMR? Was MB's new identity/unusual name just down to using the dodgy FNR license? Or was it to circumvent any delay to the new passport issue awaiting the deed poll documents? I am sure you will all know the answer to this, so please help me, I just can't unravel it.

To get an IDL you need a Australian DL they use this to translate your licence status to international terminology. My guess is he made her an IDL as they are just cardboard, not hard to reproduce.

If she did obtain one via the RACV she would have had to have show her Aus drivers licence in the name FNMR - this could have been possible since the police missed the FR drivers licence (having claimed no one in aus had that name), and also claim Marion didn't have a valid DL in the name MB since moving to Queensland and giving up her NSW one. I don't believe that for a second, she wouldn't have been able to get insurance.

from the Home | Service NSW
An IDP is sometimes referred to as an international driving licence and is valid for 12 months. The IDP is not a standalone document – you need to carry your Australian driver licence with you at all times. Ensure your IDP allows you to drive or ride the vehicles you intend to use.

There was a lady on the FB page offer to explain the passport issuing process to SL, she worked in 1997 for multiple QL sites issuing passports. Was tempted to ask her to come and talk to us lol

 

[Liselle]

Just a thought bubble. Australian Customs (now Border Force) were/are quite savvy to what incoming passengers were carrying. As a precaution, it's possible AKA posted "irregular" (MB's) documents from the UK, using the name FNR and a secret, prearranged post office box, to collect them from, once he returned to Australia. Has it ever been established if MB used her new name, for example, on a "Power of Attorney" as JO had done? Is it possible MB's personal items were "removed" and posted back in the name of FNR?

 

[KiwiNZ]

posted on - Missing person Marion Barter Facebook Page by Joni - we know most of it but just thought I would share as it might promote conversation or something we hadn't thought of

Tonight marks 25 years since Sally cooked her mother, Marion, a roast dinner, to say goodbye & good luck for her "trip of a lifetime" across the UK & Europe. The very last time she saw her mum.
Tomorrow marks 25 years since Marion left Australia from Brisbane airport on Korean Air Flight 814 to Sth Korea, departing at 11pm at night.
Lesley dropped Marion at the bus stop opposite the Southport Leagues Club. They were very early and laughed about this. She had two big suitcases and a travel-on bag. Marion appeared very happy but sad that she was leaving. Last vision was seeing her sitting in her seat on the bus, laughing, crying and waving.
This flight was a direct flight to Gimpo airport in South Korea. The flight arrived at 8am 23rd June 1997. Gimbo airport was Korean Air’s hub airport back then & passengers could transfer to over 80 destinations. Korean Air flew direct to Heathrow from there, not via Narita, as originally thought. They only flew via Narita to destinations in the Americas.
Questions still remain : did Marion then fly to Narita in Japan and then fly on to London with another airline ? Or did she fly on to Heathrow, London from Sth Korea, not even going to Japan at all ?
Why would she have not simply flown with Japan Airlines, just like Mr. Blum did on the 17th of June, just 5 days prior ? She would have had a restful stopover at the Hotel Nikko with the lovely buffet breakfast & the bus back to the airport included in her fare. No need to be lugging cases from Sth Korea to Japan either because according to Leslie she had to carry both of her large cases everywhere she went by their handles.
Exactly one week later on the 30th June, Marion posts a letter to Sally from Tonbridge, UK. This letter starts ... "Greetings from a beautiful but very wet UK.! I finally arrived in England after a most interesting visit to the east clouded somewhat by far too much luggage! I felt like a pack horse + am determined never to carry so much again."
So , the key question is, knowing all of the above, how did Marion have this note paper from Hotel Nikko Narita in her possession ?
Sending love, peace & strength to Sally today & tomorrow on this anniversary, of sorts.
Joni

 

[ruby925]

So Marion's bags weren't checked through to UK as her postcard mentions about carrying her luggage? 'A most interesting visit to the East' is also not normally a description of a night stop in transit. From that, it seems MB took a while to get to UK, maybe even that whole week ..where was she?.. and was she alone?

 

[BonnieB]

Perhaps she took advantage of one of the stopover packages on offer

 

[ruby925]

Perhaps she took advantage of one of the stopover packages on offer

yes, that looks likely, I am not familiar with long haul travel when it comes to Asia/Australia

 

[brjakj]

So Marion's bags weren't checked through to UK as her postcard mentions about carrying her luggage? 'A most interesting visit to the East' is also not normally a description of a night stop in transit. From that, it seems MB took a while to get to UK, maybe even that whole week ..where was she?.. and was she alone?

Maybe it was “a most interesting visit” because she married while there?

 

[Estelle]

Maybe it was “a most interesting visit” because she married while there?

I keep wondering about what did RB use to motivate her to change her name. It's a big ask IMO.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I keep wondering about what did RB use to motivate her to change her name. It's a big ask IMO.

I believe this is the heart of the MB con/scam. I feel sure it's more than just RB encouraging her about convenience or marriage. Change of last name, yes. But he had to convince her that having the same intials was critical for some important purpose. And those of you above, on the Asian layover posts, are convincing me that's when they married.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I’m doing something I’ve never done before: posting an image. This is a translation of RBs 1980 letter to MC posted by Channel 7 and Alison Sandy on their Twitter account. Hope I did this right.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I’m doing something I’ve never done before: posting an image. This is a translation of RBs 1980 letter to MC posted by Channel 7 and Alison Sandy on their Twitter account. Hope I did this right.

Mine come out just as blurry when I upload as a pic, I have tried snipping, not sure if its better ?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I believe this is the heart of the MB con/scam. I feel sure it's more than just RB encouraging her about convenience or marriage. Change of last name, yes. But he had to convince her that having the same intials was critical for some important purpose. And those of you above, on the Asian layover posts, are convincing me that's when they married.

I think the name change was part of his scam but I also think this guy is a fool and likely didn't even know exactly how it could benefit him, I feel like he makes things up as he goes along and uses the gift of the gab to make square pegs fit in round holes. I think he thought he could use the name to his advantage not sure he ever figured out to to do that though. Everything seems so convoluted with him