Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Given his past record, I'd say it was more likely that he saw it in a film or read it in a book.

There will be more people out there. Most likely in Luxembourg, Belgium, northern France. Or in Australia or England. His MO is the same - promise them a new life overseas. Whether that's promising the Aussies a new life in Europe, or the Europeans a new life in Australia.

What isn't part of his MO though is murder. The lady mentioned dumped in Bali, the podcast lady who was sent to a cousin in Manchester. Once he has the money/valuables, he returns to Australia (or back to Europe), and changes his identity again to cover his tracks. Wait 9 months - year, start again.

If Marion is to fit this pattern then we have to accept that he did manage to get her antiques and good stuff, and sold them. (I am fairly sure this is what happened). That they went off to England together. Then he invents some reason he has to go home right away, as he has done in the past.

So what happens next? Marion susses that "Fernand" has conned her - alarm bells start ringing. She is not a stupid woman and realises that he's fleeced her. She returns to Aus? Or do we believe that she didn't suss it out at all, and that even though this returning to Australia is something he's never done with other victims, they both come back? From RB's perspective, that''s pretty risky. Marion, back on home turf, the risk of her seeing someone she knows, or deciding to share her exciting news with family. Or would he have just cut his losses, sold her antiques, paintings etc, changed his name again and moved on to another victim?

The police have really screwed up this whole case. If they'd acted promptly in 1997 - or even in 1998, 1999 or 2000 - they could have saved a lot of people from being conned.

I wholeheartedly agree with your points but this bolded bit - this is where the crux of the issue is IMO and it can probably be worked out from his MO and 'the likelihood of...' because god knows we're unlikely to get the truth from him or anyone protecting him.

His family and acquaintances probably don't perceive that they are protecting an abuser and serious criminal but they sure are - protecting, covering, enabling, facilitating is a choice to promote evil. I hope they can come to see this. Maybe RB has been mixed up with some far scarier criminals and they daren't tell anything due to possible repercussions?

Anyhow, your bit in bold, I agree that it would be far far too risky for RB to have Marion with him in Aus and it doesn't really make any sense why he would - she'd be a loose cannon, most especially if she were to contact any family member, and he'd long since perfected the art of fraud without needing her presence. He may well have needed a female accomplice. If Marion did come back on the different flight, personally I doubt it, then I speculate she came back the same as JO did, feeling suspicious and that would have been her demise anyhow. I don't believe for one minute the RB 'worked with' Marion over a period of weeks to make these withdrawals, it doesn't seem likely, makes no sense, and let's credit Marion with a bit more sense than that - as you say she wasn't stupid. And she would have most certainly wanted to see her children and loved ones. JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Something slightly disturbing from the latest podcast about the lady placed in a hole next to him so narrow you could only stand up and her suffering an agonising death during his time in the Vietnam War with the Australian Army. While clearly he was never in the Vietnam War or in the Australian Army the story of the lady is a little more chilling. Is he recounting something he may have done?

This book, 'Dispatches' by Michael Herr, was a significant publication in 1977. Probably the sort of thing RB would have read. Also, maybe when in prison - what years was he in prison - he would have had access to lots of such books. Back in the day, prisoners used to be very well read.
.

Dispatches (book) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hoodunnit]

This other woman was (according to GD) ditched in Bali, penniless, not speaking English, somehow managed to get back to Belgium.

Was this discussed on the lastest podcast? I must have missed that bit.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Given his past record, I'd say it was more likely that he saw it in a film or read it in a book.

There will be more people out there. Most likely in Luxembourg, Belgium, northern France. Or in Australia or England. His MO is the same - promise them a new life overseas. Whether that's promising the Aussies a new life in Europe, or the Europeans a new life in Australia.

What isn't part of his MO though is murder. The lady mentioned dumped in Bali, the podcast lady who was sent to a cousin in Manchester. Once he has the money/valuables, he returns to Australia (or back to Europe), and changes his identity again to cover his tracks. Wait 9 months - year, start again.

If Marion is to fit this pattern then we have to accept that he did manage to get her antiques and good stuff, and sold them. (I am fairly sure this is what happened). That they went off to England together. Then he invents some reason he has to go home right away, as he has done in the past.

So what happens next? Marion susses that "Fernand" has conned her - alarm bells start ringing. She is not a stupid woman and realises that he's fleeced her. She returns to Aus? Or do we believe that she didn't suss it out at all, and that even though this returning to Australia is something he's never done with other victims, they both come back? From RB's perspective, that''s pretty risky. Marion, back on home turf, the risk of her seeing someone she knows, or deciding to share her exciting news with family. Or would he have just cut his losses, sold her antiques, paintings etc, changed his name again and moved on to another victim?

The police have really screwed up this whole case. If they'd acted promptly in 1997 - or even in 1998, 1999 or 2000 - they could have saved a lot of people from being conned.

Yes, he has an MO, although we’ve only heard from the women that survived. If we were hearing from any of the women that died, he would already be in jail.

The thing that made Marion different from his usual MO is that she changed her name to his alias.

There is something important in this detail, yet we don’t fully know what it means.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Why did a 67 year old man rent student accommodation at the Universite Libre de Bruxelles (ULB) when staying in Belgium? From what I can see much of the university is in or around the old Army Barracks.

​

 

[KiwiNZ]

If he is still scamming women when aged 67 perhaps he thought he was untouchable by then or didn’t care any longer to cover his tracks. He probably considers Australian Police and Government authorities as incompetent fools having managed to get away with it since first arriving in Australia in the late 1960s.

As a matter of interest do we know what passport name he was using in 2006 according to the inquest?

Agree - I think arrogance and believing he is untouchable played a part but even to stop someone unannounced knocking on your door to recover their stuff, wouldn't you use a different name, it's not like he is John Smith lol

If he hadn't used the name DH we wouldn't know about these women - thank god he was stupid enough to use it ! to RB - thanks for your stupidity

 

[sunnybree]

All the other women we know about happened AFTER Marion. I think this means he would discard parts of the con that turned out to be superfluous or caused him unintended difficulties. The name change, for example, could have caused difficulty at Barclays and other banks because the accounts were still in the name of Marion Barter. Banks in the UK may have been very reluctant to have approved transactions without a passport in that name.

I think the TARGET is financially independent women with valuable assets, who live comfortable lives but are not fabulously wealthy either (millionaires can afford their own mansions on the riviera). The MOTIVE is obtaining cash and valuables, not serial murder, but that does not mean he would not commit murder if sufficiently enraged or fearing exposure. The SIGNATURE of the crime is his grandiose false stories about himself, his circumstances, and promises of a new life overseas. That may make the crime emotionally satisfying. He uses manipulation and coercive control to convince women to hand over their valuables and money to him, trusting him. Such crimes may be more difficult to prosecute and may not be taken so seriously by the police. Then he abandons them and the women realise he has stolen from them.
Just my rambling thoughts. I hope more women come forward.

 

[KiwiNZ]

All the other women we know about happened AFTER Marion. I think this means he would discard parts of the con that turned out to be superfluous or caused him unintended difficulties. The name change, for example, could have caused difficulty at Barclays and other banks because the accounts were still in the name of Marion Barter. Banks in the UK may have been very reluctant to have approved transactions without a passport in that name.

I think the TARGET is financially independent women with valuable assets, who live comfortable lives but are not fabulously wealthy either (millionaires can afford their own mansions on the riviera). The MOTIVE is obtaining cash and valuables, not serial murder, but that does not mean he would not commit murder if sufficiently enraged or fearing exposure. The SIGNATURE of the crime is his grandiose false stories about himself, his circumstances, and promises of a new life overseas. That may make the crime emotionally satisfying. He uses manipulation and coercive control to convince women to hand over their valuables and money to him, trusting him. Such crimes may be more difficult to prosecute and may not be taken so seriously by the police. Then he abandons them and the women realise he has stolen from them.
Just my rambling thoughts. I hope more women come forward.

summarised perfectly

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, he has an MO, although we’ve only heard from the women that survived. If we were hearing from any of the women that died, he would already be in jail.

The thing that made Marion different from his usual MO is that she changed her name to his alias.

There is something important in this detail, yet we don’t fully know what it means.

Well we don't know how many people we don't know about. If you know what I mean. Nobody develops this MO out of thin air in their older age, if forensic profilers are to be believed, most people start their offending in young life, escalating rapidly through their twenties, thirties, forties, and then declining rapidly in their fifties and sixties. In fact many criminals are considered totally 'changed' by their middle aged years.

There's plenty of reasons for that though - they are often any of the following factors: incarcerated on a long term basis, dead, disabled or injured through their rogue lifestyle, have 'retired' due to getting older and the fatigue of the lifestyle, have 'retired' due to having made enough from crime to settle down to a normal life, have been nicked too many times and want the quiet life, have settled down with women / kids, have changed their ways due to recovery programmes either in prison or such as 12 Steps (some people genuinely find god), are no longer on their A game due to older age issues such as health problems and not being so energetic and strong.

What I'm trying to say is there could be hundreds of scammed women not just tens or scores. And there could be tens or scores of dead women. If we take a point of view that most of his worst crimes would have happened at the peak of his youth and escalated until his older age where they then levelled off by say his 60s into a repetitive loop of financial and paperwork frauds, maybe involving murder, this means what we are talking about is the tip of the iceberg, the thin end of the wedge. All prior crimes perpetrated with a lack of paper trail, no cctv, no interpol comms, no digital banking systems... god only knows what RB has been doing. Next to god, DdH is the biggest witness. Then MC probably.

 

[KittensAugustus]

It is worth considering that each name change has a corresponding victim.

The bank teller did say that the lady she served was going to Bali....

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, he has an MO, although we’ve only heard from the women that survived. If we were hearing from any of the women that died, he would already be in jail.

The thing that made Marion different from his usual MO is that she changed her name to his alias.

There is something important in this detail, yet we don’t fully know what it means.

Maybe it was Marion - maybe Marion wasn't willing to do all he asked if he wasn't going to marry her -

 

[VisitorDog]

The NSW police’s assertion that Sally had not reported her mother missing in 1997 is draw droppingly cruel and unnecessary.

Indeed they themselves contradict that statement here: Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter - NSW Police Public Site which is mildly embarrassing seeing as they go on to refer to her fragility of memory!

‘Family members reported Ms Barter missing to police at Byron Bay in October 1997, with detectives from the Tweed-Byron Local Area Command commencing an investigation into her whereabouts.’

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The NSW police’s assertion that Sally had not reported her mother missing in 1997 is draw droppingly cruel and unnecessary.

Indeed they themselves contradict that statement here: Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter - NSW Police Public Site which is mildly embarrassing seeing as they go on to refer to her fragility of memory!

‘Family members reported Ms Barter missing to police at Byron Bay in October 1997, with detectives from the Tweed-Byron Local Area Command commencing an investigation into her whereabouts.’

When institutions push back with this level of hatefulness and cruelty, my experience is - the worse it gets the bigger the thing they're covering up. And never ever take it personally. It is an act of evilness to try and blame and confuse a victim, Sally is a victim in all this - more power to her. We SEE THEM.

 

[VisitorDog]

When institutions push back with this level of hatefulness and cruelty, my experience is - the worse it gets the bigger the thing they're covering up. And never ever take it personally. It is an act of evilness to try and blame and confuse a victim, Sally is a victim in all this - more power to her. We SEE THEM.

Yes, it seems such a cruel and strange take given they’re talking to a woman who has tirelessly fought for her mother’s missing person case to be taken seriously. Of all people, accusing Sally of this is just mind blowingly odd.

And, even if somehow it was the case, what about the following 20 plus years?! It’s a very bad look for them.

Are they the same police force as in the Lyn Dawson / Teacher’s Pet case?

 

[vivienbee]

IF the leading police theory at the moment is that it was Marion who returned to Aus and the obvious line of enquiry is a scam gone wrong, do you think they have enough probable cause to scan/excavate any addresses held in his name at the time? I'm not sure how it works in Aus.

(Please can someone remind me what the question was about him/DdH moving addresses that was never really explained/clear? I can't remember how close this was to the disappearance/whether he possibly owned multiple properties in 1997.)

 

[brjakj]

The health checks got me thinking of the health checks required for Australian visas. I can’t see that an ultrasound of the liver would be required though.

What health examinations you need

Generally permanent and provisional visa applicants need to have these health examinations.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

 

[mishy66]

Something slightly disturbing from the latest podcast about the lady placed in a hole next to him so narrow you could only stand up and her suffering an agonising death during his time in the Vietnam War with the Australian Army. While clearly he was never in the Vietnam War or in the Australian Army the story of the lady is a little more chilling. Is he recounting something he may have done?

Totally Chilling and very telling.

Something about criminals who weave some truths into their storyline, even when out of context. He did this a lot while on the stand. This man is very dangerous. I put nothing past him.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So we have the clear pattern. I would like to know a LOT more from all known victims about how they spent time with RB, what the content of their conversations was and was sort of information he let slip about himself, there must be something.

Meet via personal add
Sell house
Sell car
Pack valuables into a crate
Hand over life savings
Sign Power of Attorney
Give use of cash withdrawal card
Promise of a new life overseas
Promise of starting a business venture
Don't tell children or family members before leaving
Ensure medical tests most specifically liver scan
Then 'disappear' on the day of supposedly leaving to make new life together.
Follow up with blackmail, threats, and menaces (nude photos / 'get family' / malicious complaints)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Why did a 67 year old man rent student accommodation at the Universite Libre de Bruxelles (ULB) when staying in Belgium? From what I can see much of the university is in or around the old Army Barracks.

​

I once stayed in student accommodation when visiting Sydney. It was OK but basic and very cheap. My friend and I were backpacking around and it was way better than the YMCA. It must have been available during the break between semesters I guess? Anyhow, yes, it's a thing you do because you have no money for a nice place to stay. Or, maybe he was trying to be hidden? From places he was already known?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

(Please can someone remind me what the question was about him/DdH moving addresses that was never really explained/clear? I can't remember how close this was to the disappearance/whether he possibly owned multiple properties in 1997.)
(Please can someone remind me what the question was about him/DdH moving addresses that was never really explained/clear? I can't remember how close this was to the disappearance/whether he possibly owned multiple properties in 1997.)

RB moved his family to another house for a year, exactly during the time he knew Marion and her disappearance.

Late 1996
The dH family move from 16 Howards Cres, Ballina to 8 Rubiton St, Wollingbar.

Thur 31 July 1997
Arrives in Aus: RLW

Sat 2 Aug 1997
Arrives in Aus: FNMR

Thur 7 Aug 1997
RACQ membership cancelled

Mon 11 Aug 1997
FDdH bought a white, second-hand Mitsibishi Magna

Wed 13 Aug 1997
Marion’s Medicare card used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld

Sun 30 Nov 1997
Mitsibishi Magna sold

Late 1997
The dH family move from Wollingbar back to ‘The Terrace’, Ballina