Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #7

[Littleguy7]

D was born 1951. RB (if true) was born 1938. Met in ship 1970. She was 19 he would have been 33.

 

[MrsWattle]

Double up

 

[Nnbee]

Well that was interesting. At the beginning I thought her defensive attitude implied guilt but further in I thought it could be fear. I don’t know if she’s scared of getting caught or scared of her husband.
I also can’t tell if she is naive and been groomed since age 19 or just being short due to lawyers advice.

 

[MrsWattle]

DNA ancestry is a great finder of true family members! I think he is Hungarian. Is Maria Van Coppenolle his Auntie? related to the very famous WW11 Belgian Military Police boss Van Coppenolle. Belgium Congo too. All available on Wiki.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

D was born 1951. RB (if true) was born 1938. Met in ship 1970. She was 19 he would have been 33.

Wasn’t he still married to Ilona at that point?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Court is temporarily adjourned..

Back at 2pm, less than an hours time.
Closed session for half an hour when they resume.

 

[SamintheSak]

Has anyone looked into the Jewish links in this?
Chaim Fredrick David De Hedervary

Ilona's mother's maiden name is Novotny, an Ashkenazi Jewish name.

Perhaps there's some familial tracing via Yad VaShem's holocaust survivor resources?

Perhaps the Wouters family have links to WW2 smuggling (Allied or Nazi), especially with a furniture business specialising in sofas.

 

[MrsWattle]

I think the Belgians might remember those antique Furniture shops. Were they antiques from Hungary? Or stolen Jewish warehouses full of stuff!

 

[Estelle]

D was born 1951. RB (if true) was born 1938. Met in ship 1970. She was 19 he would have been 33.

My records show that RB was born in 1939-07-09 as Willy David Wouters born in Belgium

 

[Meligator]

Wasn’t he still married to Ilona at that point?

There should be passenger cards for both of them in 1970 then, but I can’t find either.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Wasn't it said that they "put the furniture together".

I take that to mean that they made the furniture.

I think the Belgians might remember those antique Furniture shops. Were they antiques from Hungary?

 

[Nnbee]

My records show that RB was born in 1939-07-09 as Willy David Wouters born in Belgium

but RB current wife just said on the stand his birth name was dehavervary ? And wouters was his step dads last name? Is that what happened?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Summary so far, according to Dianne:

They are still married. They met on a ship that departed Hampton, UK to Australia around 1970. She was 19, he was about 31 [if 1939 is his real birth year].

At the time, he was Willy Wouters and she did not know him by any other name. However, she later claims she always called him Ric, even before his name change to Frederick, so...

He claimed to be a press photographer and later in Australia, he was a wedding photographer. That is how Dianne thought he made a living.

Just prior to their Feb 1976 marriage, he changed his name to Frederick David de Hedervary. He claimed it was his biological family’s name. His father was a 'de Hedervary' and his mother a Coppenolle, first names unknown, and they died in WW2. He was adopted by his aunt Maria Coppenolle and Andre Wouters. When Casselden pressed her if it was Andre or another name such as Abdel [did he mean to say Abel?], she said no, it was definitely Andre.

When asked if RB was born in Belgium, she said “that’s what they said”. [Interesting, who are 'they', why not 'that's what he said'?]

Prior to arriving in Aust, he was in the Belgium army, was on a horse during a demonstration, got pulled off and beaten up real bad. He spent two years in hospital. He has scars [the shin scars and broken nose, I assume], and still has trouble walking today.

After marrying they went overseas to Europe. First Belgium where they lived with his family and he worked at the family furniture business that made and sold furniture. The family had about three of these businesses in Belgium. They also spent 3 years in Luxembourg where he set up another business and managed it on behalf of his family. Then they spent a few months in Boudreaux, France. Then back to Belgium and UK.

It was alleged he had an affair with a woman named Monique Cornelius. But Dianne did not know about her, Marion or GGB and JO.

Dianne also claims there was just one family car that she had most of the time as she had to drive kids around, so whenever RB went to have his affair with Marion in QLD, he went by train.

[The car thing is interesting because RB never seemed to have a car, not even when visiting JO whose house was secluded and at the top of a long driveway. I wondered if someone was dropping him off. When Marion 'retuned to Aus' and they did all the trips between Brisbane, Byron, Burleigh, Grafton, etc, how did they get around? Surely a car was used? IMO] [Bracket are my own notes.]

 

[LouLouSleuth]

Is there a link to watch a recording? I missed it and have meetings this afternoon

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Is there a link to watch a recording? I missed it and have meetings this afternoon

Yes, go to the NSW Coroner’s Court YouTube. You will have to go forward a bit until she appears.

 

[roland625]

I also can’t tell if she is naive and been groomed since age 19 or just being short due to lawyers advice.

Given there was an exchange where she apparently didn't know that the Belgian Congo was in Africa I don't think she's a mensa member.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I think the story is so much nonsense. The bit about him not being able walk properly since he was 'beat up' and in hospital is just preparing us for his eventual defence... he will likely say it wasn't him, he couldn't have physically done all these things because he could never walk properly and was partially disabled. Hmmm, I smell a big fat lie and con... fakers gonna fake.

 

[Estelle]

I wouldn't necessarily believe anything that Diane says as she was either told lies by RB or he has coached her into what she should say.

For example, RB told her he had two cousins but they are stepbrothers. But why lie about that?

All this will be a mixture of truth and lies this week IMO.

 

[SamintheSak]

What was Ilona's son's name?
There is a passenger card for Michael John Reid born 1969, signed by father Michael in 1972.

View digital copy

 

[TootsieFootsie]

To be fair, I think she just heard the part Belgian and without thinking said it wasn't in Africa.
The look on her face just after she said it made me think she'd realised her mistake too late.

Given there was an exchange where she apparently didn't know that the Belgian Congo was in Africa I don't think she's a mensa member