Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #21

[TootsieFootsie]

If someone asked me to change my name to Henrietta Erica Susan Louise James, and I knew their name was Harold Ewan Samuel Lance James, I "think" I might figure out that we would have the same initials.

Being so secretive as he was, I wonder if Marion ever knew the full name he was using.

I think he knew nothing about her putting Marion in as part of the name til after it happened. I bet he was furious.

I bet he sold her on the meanings behind Florabella, Natalia etc.

Names fit for her new life of luxury in Luxembourg.

She must have been madly in love and over the moon that she had met this charming prince of a man who was going to whisk her away to his "castle".

 

[KinseyFan]

A few questions that are confusing to me :
1 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, how did she contact him? He was very cagey about whether she had his phone number ir not and his usual practice is to not be contactable.
2 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, and had no contact number, how would he contact her?
3 If MB had no contact number did she in fact go to his house with/without tea chests, and so knew where to possibly find him?

Sorry if these are all previously discussed.

Good questions. From memory, the Coroner partly asked him about this (tea chest collection with mysterious uniformed man) and he gave a typical non-answer. Something like he looked up and saw them driving into his driveway. I might be mis remembering though. But the coroner did seek to clarify (without success, I think)

 

[MrPickles]

If someone asked me to change my name to Henrietta Erica Susan Louise James, and I knew their name was Harold Ewan Samuel Lance James, I "think" I might figure out that we would have the same initials.

Being so secretive as he was, I wonder if Marion ever knew the full name he was using.

I think he knew nothing about her putting Marion in as part of the name til after it happened. I bet he was furious.

I bet he sold her on the meanings behind Florabella, Natalia etc.

Names fit for her new life of luxury in Luxembourg.

She must have been madly in love and over the moon that she had met this charming prince of a man who was going to whisk her away to his "castle".

It creeps me out that the name Florabella means ‘beautiful flower’ and the surname Blum means ‘flower’

 

[KiwiNZ]

It creeps me out that the name Florabella means ‘beautiful flower’ and the surname Blum means ‘flower’ View attachment 433923View attachment 433924

..
Personally, I think we over think some things !

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I wonder if he sold her on "wouldn't it be romantic if we had matching initials"

Anyway just a thought. And maybe Marion not being in there was a step too far for her.

 

[KiwiNZ]

from the TLV page -

Good news loyal listeners! Episode 54 will drop this week, no later than Thursday. We will post as soon as it does. Alison

 

[VisitorDog]

The reason I stay on this thread is because now and then a new nugget comes up from sleuthing or reasoning. Creativity (and problem solving) always takes a full trash can to make progress imho. (Or as the saying goes, take what you need and leave the rest.)

@centred brings up an interesting point: how Marion's case differs from the others. I think that could be relevant. Either RB talked her into changing her name or Marion did it out of whimsy. If RB talked her into it, he might have very soon regretted doing so since Remakel was a direct link to him. Has any benefit to RB for the name change been shown if Marion's only Remakel ID's were passport and International driving license? I believe he made a big mistake.

If RB did take Marion's docs and/or planned to withdraw her money with an imposter there was no need to stage a boarding card in Marion's Remakel name. In fact that further connected Marion to RB!

@centred 's post leads me back to the idea that Marion returned to Australia without letting RB know. Either out of suspicion of him or to please him and rescue the dream. It was meant to be a quick trip to set things right or end the relationship. And that was her downfall. She had the Remakel name and she was back on his home turf. A double whammy. This explains the gap between Marion's arrival and the withdrawals (RB's attempt to make the con pay off after Marion's death.) It also explains the Marion's plan of an 8 day stay. That's all it would take to sort things.

[An aside here. Having been in a similar relationship I can attest to the idea of flying halfway round the world to prove to my controlling boyfriend that I was loyal and loved him. Or to catch him being unfaithful.]

I agree with this. I think there are different methods of coming up with information and theories. TBH if I was new here, and read recent posts, I might think twice about posting any ideas.

We don’t know what we don’t know and the nature of this case means it goes in many directions. Reams of irrelevant information gets posted, but who’s to say what might turn out to be a nugget. There is so much information out there, and so many hours of podcasts and inquests, that even those of us that have listened to and read it all, struggle to keep track. It’s not a competition.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree that the name change is something to do with the real FR and also MC, just can't figure out what.
I wonder if MC now realising things have got so serious was emphatic about RB being capable of murder or whatever she said because she now wants to be protected from him, but what has gone before and what was intended prior to this recent turn of events I wonder?. JMO MOO

 

[CuriousKat99]

I agree that the name change is something to do with the real FR and also MC, just can't figure out what.
I wonder if MC now realising things have got so serious was emphatic about RB being capable of murder or whatever she said because she now wants to be protected from him, but what has gone before and what was intended prior to this recent turn of events I wonder?. JMO MOO

It was difficult to be sure of what MC said on the recent podcast due to her thick accent and editing cuts, but my understanding was that she had been working closely with her local police for years, since the last time she saw AKA. It sounded like she felt she had been in danger for many years (since Marion’s disappearance?) Maybe she was comfortable with the theft and scamming but once the business ramped up, she wanted to back out but knew too much.

 

[CuriousKat99]

He had 2 wives NR and IK who died young. IK family also died the same year as her. He had guns. One of his victims family investigated links to the Belgium Gang. What those links are haven't been revealed but he must have found something to sway him of this. IMO there's a strong possibility he is/ was a killer. And with contacts.

Add to that DdH’s both parents who passed away relatively prematurely.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I wouldn’t assume just yet that Marion was the 1st victim he managed to change the name of. She may have been the last but the consequences were so dire or too much like hard work he didn’t attempt it again. Way too many trips to Europe in the early to mid-90s for my liking with a possible victim behind each one of them.

MC has admitted to meeting up with his criminal ‘associates’ and I’d be very disappointed if she hasn’t been asked to name each and every one of them and what was discussed at this meeting and where it took place.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wouldn’t assume just yet that Marion was the 1st victim he managed to change the name of. She may have been the last but the consequences were so dire or too much like hard work he didn’t attempt it again. Way too many trips to Europe in the early to mid-90s for my liking with a possible victim behind each one of them.

MC has admitted to meeting up with his criminal ‘associates’ and I’d be very disappointed if she hasn’t been asked to name each and every one of them and what was discussed at this meeting and where it took place.

Sadly, we literally don't know this and in terms of whether he took everything of Marion's then had no comeback whatsoever, then it was very successful indeed.

He must have been pretty astounded. Imagine that he must have thought wow this woman's family aren't even looking for her and / or he was well in the clear and certainly no-one was looking for him. In that regard, this is what he would do again more, not less. The other scenarios had all become quite bothersome.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Sadly, we literally don't know this and in terms of whether he took everything of Marion's then had no comeback whatsoever, then it was very successful indeed.

He must have been pretty astounded. Imagine that he must have thought wow this woman's family aren't even looking for her and / or he was well in the clear and certainly no-one was looking for him. In that regard, this is what he would do again more, not less. The other scenarios had all become quite bothersome.

It’s just that we are aware of 5 other victims (all after Marion) and according to them name changes weren’t discussed. If they had AC and BS would surely have been all over it at the inquest.

His brazenness does appear to have no bounds. Even an AVO served on him (presumably witnessed by his wife and possibly children) just a year later didn’t stop him. Perhaps he did believe he was untouchable in Australia and name changes just weren’t required. I do however still wonder if Marion was the only victim where he went down this route?

 

[KeenSleuth17]

Yes, recall Laura Richards’ (Criminal Behaviour Analyst) comments on TLV podcast that answering a question with a question is a sign of deception. If you listen to AKA on the witness stand, he answers questions with questions quite frequently.

My favourite is when he says “how would I do that?” Seriously hoping the person asking would divulge to him more information about what they know.

 

[MrPickles]

It’s just that we are aware of 5 other victims (all after Marion) and according to them name changes weren’t discussed. If they had AC and BS would surely have been all over it at the inquest.

His brazenness does appear to have no bounds. Even an AVO served on him (presumably witnessed by his wife and possibly children) just a year later didn’t stop him. Perhaps he did believe he was untouchable in Australia and name changes just weren’t required. I do however still wonder if Marion was the only victim where he went down this route?

IMO - Someone would’ve definitely answered the ‘94 ad.

I still have a question mark over the mystery guy LL would see but was never introduced to in 1994. In her evidence MB was always very friendly over the fence, but she was never introduced to this man who would come and go. It’s wasn’t G the school gardener.

 

[VisitorDog]

I suppose the ones we know of, aside from Marion, are mostly those where he wasn’t (allegedly) ‘fully’ successful and have seen the publicity or are even still alive to have seen it and are willing / able to come forward.

There’s a lot of potential for people to be in the second group, over the years.

 

[ruby925]

My theory today (but probably won't last until tomorrow) is a simple one. RB tells MB he is a 'special agent' and currently has name of FNR (he thinks safe to use this ID as not used since 1994), she should temporarily change her name ..easy peasy'.. to FNR to travel to Europe, be his 'wife' and plan their new life there. MB does not change her bank accounts though. No problem, it's back to Australia, where she accesses the 5K a day (handed to RB for safe keeping/deposit on a business or similar). Then RB is somehow able to access the 80k in the Ashmore account with his FNR ID and stashes it in the newly opened safety deposit box. The only problem is MB has found out where RB lives, will tell his family, go to the police ..and crucially this is on his doorstep now, his safe place of Australia. MB is disappeared, anyone looking for her will be looking for MB and any FNR connection (if ever found) will lead to Luxembourg...that's even on the border control passenger cards...and the real FNR. So even if MB's demise was an accident..no loose ends...until someone found the Remakel ad all those years later.
Happy for this to be pulled to pieces...obvs all JMO

 

[DerZuschauer]

One of his victims family investigated links to the Belgium Gang.

I'm sorry, who did?

 

[Housemartyn]

So even if MB's demise was an accident..no loose ends...until someone found the Remakel ad all those years later.
Happy for this to be pulled to pieces...obvs all JMO

MB murder was no accident IMO it was thoroughly planned out. Good synopsis although I don't think Marion withdrew the money. It really doesn't fit into the timeline. And she would have been seen.

 

[MrPickles]

MB murder was no accident IMO it was thoroughly planned out. Good synopsis although I don't think Marion withdrew the money. It really doesn't fit into the timeline. And she would have been seen.

Until a few days ago I was firmly in the camp that MB did not withdraw the money. I found the 13 days between MB’s return and the first withdrawal to be a crucial timeframe - if answers can be found.

BUT, after re-listening to Missing Persons Officer, Trudy McKendrick’s evidence in TLV - The Inquest Part 8 (from 2 minutes 30) I’ve changed camps for the time being.

Her diary notes from November 1997 were quite convincing after speaking at length to a female teller from the Ashmore Colonial State Bank branch. A teller who knew and recognised MB as a customer - being it was a small branch they got to know their clientele. The teller was adamant it was MB who made the withdrawal transfer and that she also completed procedural paperwork checks of her identity. Due to privacy the teller wasn’t at liberty to tell the officer of MB’s location as she did not want to be found.

I had become so focused on AKA’s evidence I had forgotten Trudy’s compelling evidence. So at this stage I’m back to the crucial timeframe being from the 14th of October to the 17th (the day before Owen’s birthday)