Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #21

[MrsWattle]

Thanks to my colleagues here, I've corrected this flowchart. I'd like to delete the first one, so I don't compound the terrible misinformation on this case. Not sure how to do that.

One thing the chart makes clear to me, and in my opinion only, is that the gap between Marion's supposed arrival in Brisbane and the first withdrawal is a major clue. Either Marion was sick and couldn't get to the bank as soon as she wanted to; or Marion did not return to Australia in order to withdraw money and had to be persuaded to while there; or RB had to scramble to come up with an accomplice and a plan once Marion was dead (either accidentally or on purpose) and it took him a while. View attachment 433216

Thanks for this update, yes I agree with you.
If you report your previous post and just say reason for report is "wrong dates" admin will delete it. I've done that on my own posts in the past.

 

[mishy66]

No one knows what Marions health was like prior to her passenger card coming in.

ER wasnt the one who said her mother had flu like symptoms. That was through the journalist. Her mother was treated to tonsillitis.

If MB did return it was to get money to buy a school( under false pretences) as per AH BS story. He and the BB police were the only ones to suggest this.
Marion only stated on her postcard how cheap they were....no doubt that figure came from AH himself IMO

The car wasn't sold or dumped 4 months later.
It was passed to Diane then son and he wrote it off 12mths/ 2 yrs later.

IMO AH had her MB details on him just as he did with all the other future victims of his.

 

[mishy66]

Actually, thinking about these cars again is reminding me of that Toyota he had the unregistered permit for until Sept 98.

Are these permits for 12 months does anybody know?? And how many times can a permit be renewed for the same car?


Because if so, that would mean it was taken out in September 97, the same month he misses a day or two of his 'very important job' at his kids swim meet.

I know we've run around the mulberry tree so many times about these cars, but why would he need a permit for this car, which can be used to get from A to B for reasons of perhaps selling, getting work done, or to get registered, or whatever else you would need a permit for - in the case of a crook, it could be for any number of reasons and THEN buy another bomb in August 97. This was the car that the salesman said had the "European looking" woman in the passenger seat. The Magna. So if she is in a car across the road and he is inside the car yard buying the magna, WHAT CAR HAS BEEN DRIVEN TO THE CAR YARD..... !
Because they BOTH said he doesnt drive under oath.

Cant have 1 person driving 2 cars home from the car yard right

 

[MrPickles]

Actually, thinking about these cars again is reminding me of that Toyota he had the unregistered permit for until Sept 98.

Are these permits for 12 months does anybody know?? And how many times can a permit be renewed for the same car?


Because if so, that would mean it was taken out in September 97, the same month he misses a day or two of his 'very important job' at his kids swim meet.

I know we've run around the mulberry tree so many times about these cars, but why would he need a permit for this car, which can be used to get from A to B for reasons of perhaps selling, getting work done, or to get registered, or whatever else you would need a permit for - in the case of a crook, it could be for any number of reasons and THEN buy another bomb in August 97. This was the car that the salesman said had the "European looking" woman in the passenger seat. The Magna. So if she is in a car across the road and he is inside the car yard buying the magna, WHAT CAR HAS BEEN DRIVEN TO THE CAR YARD..... !
Because they BOTH said he doesnt drive under oath.

Cant have 1 person driving 2 cars home from the car yard right

The purpose of a permit is to legally drive an unregistered vehicle to a licensed mechanical premises to meet roadworthy standards to be registered. The permit can be used to move the vehicle from a mechanical workshop to a tyre dealer to an exhaust specialist etc. but only for mechanical purposes.

Apply for an unregistered vehicle permit

An unregistered vehicle permit (UVP) allows you to drive an unregistered vehicle for a specific journey. It is only valid for the time required to complete…

www.service.nsw.gov.au

Wait! He doesn’t/didn’t drive in 1997? Why so many varying drivers licences in different names and how could he have acquired them if not in fit health to drive?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Apply for an unregistered vehicle permit

An unregistered vehicle permit (UVP) allows you to drive an unregistered vehicle for a specific journey. It is only valid for the time required to complete…

www.service.nsw.gov.au

Wait! He doesn’t/didn’t drive in 1997? Why so many varying drivers licences in different names and how could he have acquired them if not in fit health to drive?

An Aha moment!

I think you are onto something there MrPickles!

 

[MrPickles]

No one knows what Marions health was like prior to her passenger card coming in.

ER wasnt the one who said her mother had flu like symptoms. That was through the journalist. Her mother was treated to tonsillitis.

If MB did return it was to get money to buy a school( under false pretences) as per AH BS story. He and the BB police were the only ones to suggest this.
Marion only stated on her postcard how cheap they were....no doubt that figure came from AH himself IMO

The car wasn't sold or dumped 4 months later.
It was passed to Diane then son and he wrote it off 12mths/ 2 yrs later.

IMO AH had her MB details on him just as he did with all the other future victims of his.

SL had stated MB was happy, excited and in good health during the 31/07 phone call. If MB started to become unwell it was after the phone call.

Spotlight - Ep 02 - (21 minutes in) - ER states that AKA taught her the method of undetected poisoning (via food) it would start with flu like symptoms for a couple of weeks, then the person would die.

As I said, school, mansion in LUX (I try listen to Marion’s only voice) School in postcard - moving to LUX on passenger card) AKA tells car dealer he’s shortly leaving to purchase an apartment in France (it’s possible MB was in the other car listening to his fanciful commentary with the car dealer) The reason I said choose your own AKA BS reason MB was fed to withdraw her life savings. There’s 3 possible scenarios.

Re: the Magna - Is this absolutely conclusive?

AKA had some of JO’s details/documentation - All other victims withdrew money themselves and very sadly handed it over, or he removed it from a safe, stole coins/stamps etc. I agree he at the very least had MB’s signature and whatever else MB returned to AUS with.

Why the withdrawals on the Gold Coast? What was the purpose of returning to MB’s home area? A teacher known by hundreds of students, families and her daughter living around the corner - yet zero contact and not a person (thus far) saw MB. There was a reason someone went to the GC.

 

[MrPickles]

An Aha moment!

I think you are onto something there MrPickles!

Owned a family business mechanical workshop in Victoria for over 20 years as an accredited licensed vehicle tester. While NSW is slightly different I’m very aware of the process and the ability to search vehicle registration records Australia wide. Re: stolen, written off, last paid registration, cancelled registration plates (for refund of unused rego) etc.

 

[lrb66]

An Aha moment!

I think you are onto something there MrPickles!

Doesn’t drive doesn’t mean cannot drive.
Nor does it mean he doesn’t hold a driving licence?
Not sure…

 

[centred]

AKA tells car dealer he’s shortly leaving to purchase an apartment in France (it’s possible MB was in the other car listening to his fanciful commentary with the car dealer)

Apply for an unregistered vehicle permit

An unregistered vehicle permit (UVP) allows you to drive an unregistered vehicle for a specific journey. It is only valid for the time required to complete…

www.service.nsw.gov.au

Wait! He doesn’t/didn’t drive in 1997? Why so many varying drivers licences in different names and how could he have acquired them if not in fit health to drive?

AKA tells car dealer he’s shortly leaving to purchase an apartment in France (it’s possible MB was in the other car listening to his fanciful commentary with the car dealer)
I
thought of this as well , who drove the other car? and why the fanciful story at this sale ?

Also who drove RB to JO s place when he visited her ..JO said she never knew or saw how he got to her place , it was a bit rural if i recall and she said he used to walk up the drive way ?

He either DID drive or someone else drove at different times for him ...

The permit car may have been a "bomb " and cost too much to fix ..so another was purchased instead for purposes needed quickly, I wonder if the cheap skate put any road service on it ? In someones name ? Maybe changed or done when MB one was cancelled ?

Just things to chew on imo

 

[MrPickles]

Doesn’t drive doesn’t mean cannot drive.
Nor does it mean he doesn’t hold a driving licence?
Not sure…

Rules to attaining/maintaining a drivers licence on a disability pension are fairly stringent depending on your definition of disability. At least that’s the case in Victoria.

I do not know if AKA’s apparent health at the time didn’t allow him to physically drive (yet could flit around the world ad nauseam) or whether he/her were stating his licence had been revoked by medical professionals.

Or it was revoked and he drove anyway?

No idea.

 

[MrPickles]

AKA tells car dealer he’s shortly leaving to purchase an apartment in France (it’s possible MB was in the other car listening to his fanciful commentary with the car dealer)
I
thought of this as well , who drove the other car? and why the fanciful story at this sale ?

Also who drove RB to JO s place when he visited her ..JO said she never knew or saw how he got to her place , it was a bit rural if i recall and she said he used to walk up the drive way ?

He either DID drive or someone else drove at different times for him ...

The permit car may have been a "bomb " and cost too much to fix ..so another was purchased instead for purposes needed quickly, I wonder if the cheap skate put any road service on it ? In someones name ? Maybe changed or done when MB one was cancelled ?

Just things to chew on imo

Yep. Talking himself up just for the car dealer - or because his wife/impending wife is listening and about to withdraw her life savings? Imagine an apartment in France as well as a possible school - plus a mansion in LUX. Did MB (if it was her) remain in the car because she was unwell? Or under instruction?

If it was DdH - why carry on with the French apartment BS? (Yep, I know he loves to BS to anyone who’ll listen) but i still wonder.

Yep. Sooooo many unanswered questions!

 

[centred]

Rules to attaining/maintaining a drivers licence on a disability pension are fairly stringent depending on your definition of disability. At least that’s the case in Victoria.

I do not know if AKA’s apparent health at the time didn’t allow him to physically drive (yet could flit around the world ad nauseam) or whether he/her were stating his licence had been revoked by medical professionals.

Or it was revoked and he drove anyway?

No idea.

I disagree re DSP many many people drive , restrictions only usually apply to old age pensioners ...just sayin

 

[MrPickles]

AKA tells car dealer he’s shortly leaving to purchase an apartment in France (it’s possible MB was in the other car listening to his fanciful commentary with the car dealer)
I
thought of this as well , who drove the other car? and why the fanciful story at this sale ?

Also who drove RB to JO s place when he visited her ..JO said she never knew or saw how he got to her place , it was a bit rural if i recall and she said he used to walk up the drive way ?

He either DID drive or someone else drove at different times for him ...

The permit car may have been a "bomb " and cost too much to fix ..so another was purchased instead for purposes needed quickly, I wonder if the cheap skate put any road service on it ? In someones name ? Maybe changed or done when MB one was cancelled ?

Just things to chew on imo

Yep. Talking himself up just for the car dealer - or because his wife/impending wife is listening and about to withdraw her life savings? Imagine an apartment in France as well as a possible school - plus a mansion in LUX. Did MB (if it was her) remain in the car because she was unwell? Or under instruction?

If it was DdH - why carry on with the French apartment BS? (Yep, I know he loves to BS to anyone who’ll listen) but i still wonder.

Yep. Sooooo many unanswered questions!

 

[MrsWattle]

Rules to attaining/maintaining a drivers licence on a disability pension are fairly stringent depending on your definition of disability. At least that’s the case in Victoria.

I do not know if AKA’s apparent health at the time didn’t allow him to physically drive (yet could flit around the world ad nauseam) or whether he/her were stating his licence had been revoked by medical professionals.

Or it was revoked and he drove anyway?

No idea.

IMO He could have been a really bad driver, too many speeding fines, lost his licence 12 demerits? There was that Porsche with the guns he drove, speeding to the ship to see Ilona and MJR. And his Remakel licence And alsooooo, a while ago there was a newspaper archive found about David Fredy, wreckless driving, either way he must think he is in a movie as the bank robber getaway guy. A danger to society.
IMO

 

[MrPickles]

Rules to attaining/maintaining a drivers licence on a disability pension are fairly stringent depending on your definition of disability. At least that’s the case in Victoria.

I do not know if AKA’s apparent health at the time didn’t allow him to physically drive (yet could flit around the world ad nauseam) or whether he/her were stating his licence had been revoked by medical professionals.

Or it was revoked and he drove anyway?

No idea.

My son, age 26 - who is on a disability pension Is medically reviewed every year due to his condition. We don’t know enough about AKA’s medical condition to say whether it was revoked or whether he didn’t drive by choice.

I have no memory of it being stated under oath at the inquest (by AKA and DdH) that he did not drive in 1997.

 

[MrPickles]

IMO He could have been a really bad driver, too many speeding fines, lost his licence 12 demerits? There was that Porsche with the guns he drove, speeding to the ship to see Ilona and MJR. And his Remakel licence And alsooooo, a while ago there was a newspaper archive found about David Fredy, wreckless driving, either way he must think he is in a movie as the bank robber getaway guy. A danger to society.
IMO

Excellent point! Entirely possible. All this information would’ve been available to AC since they focused on the family vehicles at the time.

I wonder why they pushed that line of questioning if that was the case?

 

[Housemartyn]

Didn't GDB say that he borrowed her car?

 

[*juniper*]

Yep. Talking himself up just for the car dealer - or because his wife/impending wife is listening and about to withdraw her life savings? Imagine an apartment in France as well as a possible school - plus a mansion in LUX. Did MB (if it was her) remain in the car because she was unwell? Or under instruction?

If it was DdH - why carry on with the French apartment BS? (Yep, I know he loves to BS to anyone who’ll listen) but i still wonder.

I have thought it is most likely he was talking his BS to the dealer in order to impress him and get a better deal on a used car.

But, it could also be because he can't help himself and has to talk his BS whenever he has a captive audience.

Another reason - it was DdH in the car and AKA was being deliberately memorable (Joni says the salesman remembered AKA from 25 years ago) as part of an alibi he was in the process of creating. So that if he was ever questioned about Marion he would be able to say that he was planning to go to France with his wife (and not to LUX with Marion). JMO

 

[MrPickles]

Didn't JO say that he borrowed her car?

Oooh! Was it actually GG-B? Either way he definitely borrowed a car. Yes!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

What about the time he turned up on the dock and Ilona went to speak with him.
Didn't she say that he had a gun in the car.