Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #22

[VisitorDog]

IIRC, your passport is the key document used when you enter Australia. The border officer will do a visual check - comparing your face against the photo in your passport. They might ask you where you have travelled from or some other general questions. Your travel details are entered into or checked against the Immigration movement records system.

Then I think, but I can't be sure, they used to write a code somewhere, maybe on your passenger card, which indicated to Customs or Quarantine if they considered you to be a risk, and this could prompt a thorough search of your baggage.

The former Immigration Dept - now part of Home Affairs - keeps a copy of your travel into and out of Australia, but they don't keep a record of where you travelled internationally. Here is a link to the Home Affairs website that gives background information on movement records. https://www.abf.gov.au/entering-and...he-border/passenger-movement/movement-records

Thank you, this makes sense. So based on this - in theory if they make a mark on the passenger card they should be checking it matches the passport. And then the passenger card should have that mark on it when handed in. I suppose there’s a possibility that a different or non-matching passenger card could be handed in at that point.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Am I right or wrong in thinking that it’s just the passenger card that tell us she came back into the country? Or are there actual other records that have been referenced from that far back? For instance, if Mrs. Smith flew into the country in 97, but handed in a passenger card with Mrs. Remakel on it, would that give the same result? Or is there actually other travel record details?

It's not just the card that proves you entered a country it's the recording of your passport as you pass through immigration. The also check your card but hand it back to you with your passport, you hand the card in after bag pick up.

I have had my card corrected by immigrations - the little man in the perspex box that checks and stamps your passport and records your entry on the system. -

 

[mishy66]

Hi all, I am a Flight Attendant, (and no, never directly worked with M sadly). You hand in your IPC (the passenger card) to quarantine after you have collected your baggage from the carousels. Baggage collection takes place after you have passed through customs/border protection. Quarantine do not check the passport matches the card either, as you have already just passed through customs. I hope that makes sense?

Thank you, this makes sense. So based on this - in theory if they make a mark on the passenger card they should be checking it matches the passport. And then the passenger card should have that mark on it when handed in. I suppose there’s a possibility that a different or non-matching passenger card could be handed in at that point.

 

[*juniper*]

Thank you, this makes sense. So based on this - in theory if they make a mark on the passenger card they should be checking it matches the passport. And then the passenger card should have that mark on it when handed in. I suppose there’s a possibility that a different or non-matching passenger card could be handed in at that point.

I have just checked the FB copy of Marion's Incoming Passenger Card and I can't see any code. Maybe this code system wasn't in use at the time or not used at Brisbane airport? I am only going on what I can remember, and I was travelling through a different airport.

I guess it would be possible to swap cards after the initial arrival check and before the Customs check, but then we have the passport number in different handwriting. I have always thought that the reason for the different handwriting was because it had been written in by the border official. If the card was prepared in advance as a substitute, then I would have expected the passport number to be written in the same handwriting.

Also, while Marion's card doesn't seem to have a code, it is stamped by Immigration, so that would be harder to fake. JMO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

IIRC, your passport is the key document used when you enter Australia. The border officer will do a visual check - comparing your face against the photo in your passport. They might ask you where you have travelled from or some other general questions. Your travel details are entered into or checked against the Immigration movement records system.

Then I think, but I can't be sure, they used to write a code somewhere, maybe on your passenger card, which indicated to Customs or Quarantine if they considered you to be a risk, and this could prompt a thorough search of your baggage.

The former Immigration Dept - now part of Home Affairs - keeps a copy of your travel into and out of Australia, but they don't keep a record of where you travelled internationally. Here is a link to the Home Affairs website that gives background information on movement records. https://www.abf.gov.au/entering-and...he-border/passenger-movement/movement-records

It would be interesting to see Marion’s photo on that passport used in 1997.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

If it was Marion that flew home to Australia and her journey started from Amsterdam, how did she travel to Amsterdam? Fly, ferry or by train/road through the Channel Tunnel?

He was a few days ahead of her so presumably she would have been in Amsterdam on her own for at least a day. It does seem bizarre she has to get to Amsterdam (with her baggage at Heathrow) to then travel unexpectedly home to Australia. We know he didn’t like paying for his victim’s return tickets. He was miffed he had to pay JOs train fare from Dover Priory Station and still hasn’t got over it!

I’m still not entirely convinced there was no accomplice in Marion’s case. We now know he had criminal acquaintances in the past confirmed by MC. The pay off could have been sufficient to never having to use them again.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

To say that I have found this case shocking is an understatement. In general I have so much respect and gratitude for LE and first responders — they put their lives on the line everyday for us, but is this case typical of the way things go in AU? I’m in America and somehow I feel like our Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) would have been all over this years ago. Thank goodness for Sally’s persistance, all the amateur sleuths, and “The Lady Vanishes” podcast because LE has been asleep. OMO. I don’t mean to be critical of Australia — we in U.S. can be pretty tightly wound and that can also back fire on us. We aren’t perfect either.

Is the coroner’s inquest like our American grand jury? Does AU have an equivalent to the U.S. FBI? It seems like pretty slow going — shouldn’t somebody like FBI agent-types be doing serious investigation on the truth of “evidence” given, following up on AKA’s apparent lies, to impeach him? And why didn’t they get on it earlier? It’s like a comedy of errors only there is *nothing* funny about this. It’s terribly sad, terribly sad.

OMHO. Maybe Marion’s case is an enigma. I don’t pretend to understand how the AU justice system works — I am totally nascent — perhaps there is a lot going on that I’m not aware of, but the seeming lack of urgency especially the last few years is stunning. I apologize if I’m missing something — hope I’m not offending anyone. At this rate, AKA is going to croak before he gets punished. OMO.

I agree with everything you say. My only understanding of the slowness of all this is that because Marion was never declared formally 'missing presumed dead' and there has never been a ruling that AKA was involved in her being missing, that procedurally murder detectives or the equivalent of the FBI / Interpol don't have the correct legal grounds to put a warrant for his arrest and questioning. Because of that, things have to be done slowly with every 'i' dotted and every 't' crossed - slowly, slowly, to catch the rare testicle-warbler in his natural habitat surrounded by his offspring.

Quite why the outcome of this Inquest is taking a year and a day, I'm not clear upon. I can't remember whether AKA had legal representation in the end. I think he did, didn't he?

According to Google, Australia has the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). In the UK where some of this took place, there's the National Crime Agency, International (NCA) and also MI5, MI6. Internationally, there's 196 countries of this world working with Interpol committed to fighting crime. There's also the LE and detection systems of the other countries he was in such as Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland.

I have a suspicion that nothing can move forwards until the Inquest declares Marion missing presumed dead after an entanglement with a man called '<insert current name>' (let's face it, he's changed his name again already hasn't he?) who has been established as a romance scammer and con artist and was involved in her disappearance. It will take a LOT of evidence for them to make that strength of statement. They may not be able to.

If that statement gets made, then all the other stuff can kick in but not before.

In terms of how the crime agencies spend their time, RB is small fry as they're probably looking a huge people trafficking rings, drug manufacturing and shipments, child trafficking, slavery, terrorism, arms dealing, money laundering, on and on.

JMO MOO

 

[VisitorDog]

Thanks everyone, I think what I’m trying to figure out is while we’ve seen the passenger card images, do the police have access to other immigration records - eg that get recorded at the time of the passport check with customs. I’m only thinking of the UK but remember back then that it was sometimes more of a wave through if you had a British passport. Not always somebody typing or scanning anything.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Could you gives us a clue as to which FB page ie 'The lady vanishes' or Marion Barter? I had not picked up on the credit card use until I saw the timeline here. Cheers

It been discussed on here just do a search.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

There is a long history with corruption/incompetence in local stations and Marion’s is not the only inquest this February locally to highlight that. Marion’s does show a longer timeline of ineptitude, but the coroner had been given a plethora of examples of police not doing their job properly for whatever reason.
In my opinion the poor policing and convolution in Marion’s case is due to AH being involved in some way with an employee of Regina’s (a member of the police force), he most certainly had little confidence crime rings sorted and most certainly would have had facilitators.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s still involved with some of them to this day (see the respite care in bangalow involving one of said associates).
All MOO but the bottom line is the police are part of the problem. They make morality/judgement/value calls regularly on cases and allocate as much effort as they see fit considering the circumstances.
There is no reason why AH wouldn’t have had a mate in the stations cleaning up for him.

 

[KiwiNZ]

If it was Marion that flew home to Australia and her journey started from Amsterdam, how did she travel to Amsterdam? Fly, ferry or by train/road through the Channel Tunnel?

He was a few days ahead of her so presumably she would have been in Amsterdam on her own for at least a day. It does seem bizarre she has to get to Amsterdam (with her baggage at Heathrow) to then travel unexpectedly home to Australia. We know he didn’t like paying for his victim’s return tickets. He was miffed he had to pay JOs train fare from Dover Priory Station and still hasn’t got over it!

I’m still not entirely convinced there was no accomplice in Marion’s case. We now know he had criminal acquaintances in the past confirmed by MC. The pay off could have been sufficient to never having to use them again.

he seems to like the Amsterdam airport and the baggage storage, maybe he wanted Marions baggage there, had a mate who would take care of his victims baggage. Possible she returned with only enough clothes for 8 days, would pick up baggage on their return or so the story went

 

[mishy66]

It been discussed on here just do a search.

Thanks @kiwi

Yep here and as I said on the page.

Not sure why some need proof it was said from the team, when it gets posted up here.
People do realise that a lot of information gets taken down on the FB pages right..

 

[mishy66]

There is a long history with corruption/incompetence in local stations and Marion’s is not the only inquest this February locally to highlight that. Marion’s does show a longer timeline of ineptitude, but the coroner had been given a plethora of examples of police not doing their job properly for whatever reason.
In my opinion the poor policing and convolution in Marion’s case is due to AH being involved in some way with an employee of Regina’s (a member of the police force), he most certainly had little confidence crime rings sorted and most certainly would have had facilitators.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s still involved with some of them to this day (see the respite care in bangalow involving one of said associates).
All MOO but the bottom line is the police are part of the problem. They make morality/judgement/value calls regularly on cases and allocate as much effort as they see fit considering the circumstances.
There is no reason why AH wouldn’t have had a mate in the stations cleaning up for him.

100% agree and believe to be the case

IMO of course

 

[mishy66]

DP

 

[mishy66]

There is a long history with corruption/incompetence in local stations and Marion’s is not the only inquest this February locally to highlight that. Marion’s does show a longer timeline of ineptitude, but the coroner had been given a plethora of examples of police not doing their job properly for whatever reason.
In my opinion the poor policing and convolution in Marion’s case is due to AH being involved in some way with an employee of Regina’s (a member of the police force), he most certainly had little confidence crime rings sorted and most certainly would have had facilitators.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s still involved with some of them to this day (see the respite care in bangalow involving one of said associates).
All MOO but the bottom line is the police are part of the problem. They make morality/judgement/value calls regularly on cases and allocate as much effort as they see fit considering the circumstances.
There is no reason why AH wouldn’t have had a mate in the stations cleaning up for him.

Yep and he used so many aliases on passports with photos of him attached of course, so WHY do people think he couldnt alter passenger cards and pass off passports? !!?
Passports, passenger cards, friends who are criminals, people in high places, thats his makeup, in his DNA, his lifetime of work.

 

[Mrs_Vee]

Thanks @kiwi

Yep here and as I said on the page.

Not sure why some need proof it was said from the team, when it gets posted up here.
People do realise that a lot of information gets taken down on the FB pages right..

Thanks @mishy66 & @KiwiNZ. Now I know where to look, I can hopefully refresh my memory. I possibly have already read/heard this information previously, it has obviously “slipped my mind”. Lord knows, there has been sooo much information involved in this case. It wasn’t anything to do with “believing” anyone or needing “proof”. Thanks again!

 

[charliethecat]

Thanks @kiwi

Yep here and as I said on the page.

Not sure why some need proof it was said from the team, when it gets posted up here.
People do realise that a lot of information gets taken down on the FB pages right..

Not asking for proof just out of interest and what it was about? I watched the Inquest and have read, I thought thoroughly, the previous threads but must have missed the details about the credit card purchase. Not important.

 

[charliethecat]

Thanks everyone, I think what I’m trying to figure out is while we’ve seen the passenger card images, do the police have access to other immigration records - eg that get recorded at the time of the passport check with customs. I’m only thinking of the UK but remember back then that it was sometimes more of a wave through if you had a British passport. Not always somebody typing or scanning anything.

I am sure they do. In the mid 90s on a NZ password I was hospitalised with pneumonia in Portugal. When i was discharged the specialist insisted I carry the x-rays with me at all times. Not in my luggage - hand or checked. I had to explain that I did not want to have the x-rays scanned in case of damage. At Heathrow about an hour later, between flights, I was stopped by security/police people and asked to come with them so they could look at the x-rays themselves. So somehow advice got from the Customs/Immigration people. As I was checking in for NZ an alert was referred to by the counter staff, so I guess if I hadn't been found prior, they would have checked then. The envelope had a stamp & writing on it from the inspection that I had to show them. I just assumed there wld be a record some where of this.

Re the wave through, yes this did happen for British passport holders. From observing (in those days we seemed to spend ages in airports waiting for flights to places like NZ) though they seemed to randomly select people as they were passing with their passports held aloft.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I am sure they do. In the mid 90s on a NZ password I was hospitalised with pneumonia in Portugal. When i was discharged the specialist insisted I carry the x-rays with me at all times. Not in my luggage - hand or checked. I had to explain that I did not want to have the x-rays scanned in case of damage. At Heathrow about an hour later, between flights, I was stopped by security/police people and asked to come with them so they could look at the x-rays themselves. So somehow advice got from the Customs/Immigration people. As I was checking in for NZ an alert was referred to by the counter staff, so I guess if I hadn't been found prior, they would have checked then. The envelope had a stamp & writing on it from the inspection that I had to show them. I just assumed there wld be a record some where of this.

Re the wave through, yes this did happen for British passport holders. From observing (in those days we seemed to spend ages in airports waiting for flights to places like NZ) though they seemed to randomly select people as they were passing with their passports held aloft.

Re random checks, someone who used to do this job told me they decided each shift what the random picking was - ie it could be every 11th person, or each person wearing a baseball cap, or anyone with a pink shirt. In this way there was no pre-determined system that criminals could suss out or corrupt staff could supply the info. Having said that, nowadays it wouldn't take two seconds to whatsapp someone the latest 'random'.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

I agree with everything you say. My only understanding of the slowness of all this is that because Marion was never declared formally 'missing presumed dead' and there has never been a ruling that AKA was involved in her being missing, that procedurally murder detectives or the equivalent of the FBI / Interpol don't have the correct legal grounds to put a warrant for his arrest and questioning. Because of that, things have to be done slowly with every 'i' dotted and every 't' crossed - slowly, slowly, to catch the rare testicle-warbler in his natural habitat surrounded by his offspring.

Quite why the outcome of this Inquest is taking a year and a day, I'm not clear upon. I can't remember whether AKA had legal representation in the end. I think he did, didn't he?

According to Google, Australia has the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). In the UK where some of this took place, there's the National Crime Agency, International (NCA) and also MI5, MI6. Internationally, there's 196 countries of this world working with Interpol committed to fighting crime. There's also the LE and detection systems of the other countries he was in such as Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland.

I have a suspicion that nothing can move forwards until the Inquest declares Marion missing presumed dead after an entanglement with a man called '<insert current name>' (let's face it, he's changed his name again already hasn't he?) who has been established as a romance scammer and con artist and was involved in her disappearance. It will take a LOT of evidence for them to make that strength of statement. They may not be able to.

If that statement gets made, then all the other stuff can kick in but not before.

In terms of how the crime agencies spend their time, RB is small fry as they're probably looking a huge people trafficking rings, drug manufacturing and shipments, child trafficking, slavery, terrorism, arms dealing, money laundering, on and on.

JMO MOO

Thank you for all details and insight. I guess there are so many unique aspects including what happened where and LE jurisdiction limits, plus dozens of aliases — so complicated.

I think we should stick with Testicle Warbler as official name for the “bad guy.” That is priceless. I nominate you for today’s MVP: most valuable poster!

Not nice to judge on looks but ironically for someone who was half driven by his gonads (other half $$$), he has a very weak face. Maybe over compensating. OMO.