Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #22

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

100%, I agree *if* M came back just behind RB it was because it was part of the plan, not because she was on to him. JMO

 

[Kie22]

But for a long time she's been keeping big secrets from all her family and friends. That can't have been easy.

She knows SL's wedding plans are underway. She's expected to be involved and at the ceremony. She doesn't want to lie anymore. If she had serious doubts about her situation then yes, she could have confided in someone close or gone to the police. But sadly many people think they can sort things out on their own, especially if they feel they might be judged.

Other women said the reason they didn't give him their house/house money was because of their children. IMO MB said the same. She was caught in a terrible, mind-bending trap of trying to please her controlling husband but also 'stop the charade'. If he was on and on at her to give him ALL her house money (which he would have been) and she refused it's possible a confrontation occurred.

Not saying that's what happened. Just it's possible.

 

[mishy66]

have you noticed the spelling of Remakel?

Yes I put it on the attachment

 

[mishy66]

For me, her call to Sally is telling. It has a very sad, almost wistful note to it. I heard it as Marion maybe following orders (maybe not) but letting Sal know in the barest detail that she won't hear from her for a while. If it wasn't going to be for a long while, Marion wouldn't have bothered. After all she's on a world trip and far away. If it was going to be for a LONG while, Marion may have felt the need to let Sal know. It also makes me think that Marion was herself unsure what this long absence was going to entail.

I SO AGREE!

Letting Sally know this, Marion is about to embark on her next chapter, the part where AH has given her, driven into her, to contact her family to say she wont be hearing from her for a while because Marion is about to FINALLY become married to a prince. Her fairytale is about to materialise.

Marion convinced that when she returns to Australia for Sallys wedding she will be able to introduce her wealthy prince to the family.

Its all going to plan, his plan. The prince has important business to take care of , he has to go away, Marion patiently waits for him. She still has much to see in the UK, after all her LARGE suitcase is still in the luggage hold at Heathrow- did she actually know that was a short term arrangement??

Same patterns work. Why change it?

IMO he threatened her and her family , maybe even threatened her about some TSS thing, and she feared that.

IMO it was afterwards when he went back OS that he killed her.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I appreciate this lively discussion. Everyone sees new details or sees them in a different way. I'm listening to Laura Richards of Crime Analyst podcast, finally. Today I heard the last episode first (by mistake.) She has very interesting even compelling insight imho. One thing she said hit me today: grifters murder when their victim threatens to leave; particularly if it's on the verge of the grifter losing something he feels he worked so hard to get. That makes total sense to me. With this logic, Marion did something that made AKA feel his power was threatened.

So if Marion did fly home, did call Sally as instructed, I feel like now she did so under AKA's instruction. He may not have said a word about the money! It may have been that he had to go back briefly and he couldn't bear to be separated from Marion. "Don't worry! We'll be on our way before you know it. I have such a splendid surprise planned for you!"

When Marion gets back to Australia (on a ticket AKA bought for her) she ends up trapped. Back in Australia, not in a familiar place, and then AKA springs the idea that she needs to withdraw the money. This -- as one of you said today-- tipped the scales. She thought of her children. NOT all the money. She couldn't. She threatens to call Sally or the police. She gets scared.

This may be what drove AKA to kill her. And that's why it took so long for him to withdraw the funds. AKA had to figure out a new plan. He had to dispose of a body. From this, he learned to leave future victims behind once everything was worked out.

In Occam's Razor the simplest explanation is the most likely the truest. If the landing card came back to Australia, so did Marion. JMHO.

 

[lrb66]

I appreciate this lively discussion. Everyone sees new details or sees them in a different way. I'm listening to Laura Richards of Crime Analyst podcast, finally. Today I heard the last episode first (by mistake.) She has very interesting even compelling insight imho. One thing she said hit me today: grifters murder when their victim threatens to leave; particularly if it's on the verge of the grifter losing something he feels he worked so hard to get. That makes total sense to me. With this logic, Marion did something that made AKA feel his power was threatened.

So if Marion did fly home, did call Sally as instructed, I feel like now she did so under AKA's instruction. He may not have said a word about the money! It may have been that he had to go back briefly and he couldn't bear to be separated from Marion. "Don't worry! We'll be on our way before you know it. I have such a splendid surprise planned for you!"

When Marion gets back to Australia (on a ticket AKA bought for her) she ends up trapped. Back in Australia, not in a familiar place, and then AKA springs the idea that she needs to withdraw the money. This -- as one of you said today-- tipped the scales. She thought of her children. NOT all the money. She couldn't. She threatens to call Sally or the police. She gets scared.

This may be what drove AKA to kill her. And that's why it took so long for him to withdraw the funds. AKA had to figure out a new plan. He had to dispose of a body. From this, he learned to leave future victims behind once everything was worked out.

In Occam's Razor the simplest explanation is the most likely the truest. If the landing card came back to Australia, so did Marion. JMHO.

Laura’s podcast (with Joni) brings a lot together. They both think she came back but with a slightly different take from each one. It’s really interesting to listen to it in its entirety
Interestingly they both think

 

[mishy66]

thank you mishy66 for the timeline !!

31 July 1997 - AH flies back into Australia from Amsterdam - *Richard Westbury (returned to Aus on his illegal passport )*

1 August - the day MB calls SL , claiming to be in Tunbridge Wells

2 August - passenger card for Florabella R arrives into Australia, originating out of Amsterdam


If this was Marion, she was only 2 days behind him, AH plays his role right up until he disappears, his victims take a while to cotton on something is wrong. Returning so close behind him and the booking at the novotel, no contact with her family or police, says to me if she did come back it was because that was his plan and he needed her physically in Aus, not because she was on to him - IMO

Yes it works for those who think she did come back doesnt it.

 

[mishy66]

I appreciate this lively discussion. Everyone sees new details or sees them in a different way. I'm listening to Laura Richards of Crime Analyst podcast, finally. Today I heard the last episode first (by mistake.) She has very interesting even compelling insight imho. One thing she said hit me today: grifters murder when their victim threatens to leave; particularly if it's on the verge of the grifter losing something he feels he worked so hard to get. That makes total sense to me. With this logic, Marion did something that made AKA feel his power was threatened.

So if Marion did fly home, did call Sally as instructed, I feel like now she did so under AKA's instruction. He may not have said a word about the money! It may have been that he had to go back briefly and he couldn't bear to be separated from Marion. "Don't worry! We'll be on our way before you know it. I have such a splendid surprise planned for you!"

When Marion gets back to Australia (on a ticket AKA bought for her) she ends up trapped. Back in Australia, not in a familiar place, and then AKA springs the idea that she needs to withdraw the money. This -- as one of you said today-- tipped the scales. She thought of her children. NOT all the money. She couldn't. She threatens to call Sally or the police. She gets scared.

This may be what drove AKA to kill her. And that's why it took so long for him to withdraw the funds. AKA had to figure out a new plan. He had to dispose of a body. From this, he learned to leave future victims behind once everything was worked out.

In Occam's Razor the simplest explanation is the most likely the truest. If the landing card came back to Australia, so did Marion. JMHO.

I like that episode too.

A couple of things in your theory though:

1. What place in Aust was she unfamiliar with?
She knew Byron Bay, she had been to a wedding there when she was going out with her groundsman BF and she knew Brisbane city well

2. Occams Razor always rears its head in this case on here BUT when you look at the very first explanation of MB being missing in regard to the police they used this same theory and look where we are now, over 25 yrs later.

 

[mishy66]

IMO Monsieur AKA poisoned Marion while they were both in the UK, she or her passport travelled to Amsterdam, she either died there or in UK, his associates made sure she had no identification.

I dont think he poisoned her before he left JMO

But I agree with the rest of your theory

He's not a lone wolf in all this has always been my theory. Too many links to various people to think otherwise

JMO

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I like that episode too.

A couple of things in your theory though:

1. What place in Aust was she unfamiliar with?
She knew Byron Bay, she had been to a wedding there when she was going out with her groundsman BF and she knew Brisbane city well

2. Occams Razor always rears its head in this case on here BUT when you look at the very first explanation of MB being missing in regard to the police they used this same theory and look where we are now, over 25 yrs later.

Thanks for your timeline! -- Bear with me. I'm American and don't know Australia. I think in Laura's podcast she uses the example of the eye clinic as a location that pinged for AKA, not Marion. Otherwise, I stand corrected. I do believe when Marion returned she did feel weird if not trapped. To be somewhere where she couldn't get around and was hiding. That made her even more vulnerable. -- Ordinarily I too believe OR is a lazy copout, but for some reason when I try to believe in the forged passenger card or in someone masquerading as Marion, I just can't do it. Even if I want to -- what I like about Laura's analysis is how straightforward it is and how it's based on her studies and experience. Can't wait for the other episodes!

 

[mishy66]

.... Returning so close behind him and the booking at the novotel, no contact with her family or police, says to me if she did come back it was because that was his plan and he needed her physically in Aus, not because she was on to him - IMO

Just on this with him needing her back here.

I always ask myself Why?

His history is he holds all their documents.
We know this from victims after Marion, closely after Marion

We know he holds onto passenger cards and fills them out for them, Diane testified to such and that was back in the 70s and 80s

He helped Marion pack her things, SL knew this was correct because he described parts of Marions house.
He also helped pack other victims things we have heard.

MB documents under that name were on him IMO, in his BIG filing cabinets, as mentioned by his neighbours

He didnt need Marion back here to get her money. He had everything he needed to pull this off.

I keep remembering JO case. He had her house deeds and left her Overseas with no money or clothing that suited the climate. He didnt need her back to do what he was going to do, whatever it was.

Having them back here doesn't concern him , he doesn't need them back.

He is no lone wolf IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

IMO it was afterwards when he went back OS that he killed her.

I hadn't even thought of this ! gives me something to digest

 

[mishy66]

Thanks for your timeline! -- Bear with me. I'm American and don't know Australia. I think in Laura's podcast she uses the example of the eye clinic as a location that pinged for AKA, not Marion. Otherwise, I stand corrected. I do believe when Marion returned she did feel weird if not trapped. To be somewhere where she couldn't get around and was hiding. That made her even more vulnerable. -- Ordinarily I too believe OR is a lazy copout, but for some reason when I try to believe in the forged passenger card or in someone masquerading as Marion, I just can't do it. Even if I want to -- what I like about Laura's analysis is how straightforward it is and how it's based on her studies and experience. Can't wait for the other episodes!

Ah yes, I see what you mean now.

I love her views too. She's very experienced and has worked in the industry for decades so she knows her stuff for sure! It also make sense.

It's funny how there are so many variations to this case.

I believe about the passenger card because he's done it all his life, knows the system well and knows how easy it is to get away with it.
As a slueth who is in the airline industry said earlier, The passenger cards are not even really glanced at, just get thrown in a box etc.

Him adding additional information to the card Marion had already prefilled, thanks to his MO, sits with that theory IMO

Yep no doubt in my mind that it was AH right arm who used MB medicare card as another "proof" she was back in Australia, along with the withdrawals. JMO

Also, Marion still had her car that she gave Sally, so IF she felt she was in trouble or isolated why not contact sally and get her car.

 

[lrb66]

I think we are all agreeing that Marion has passed.
IMO there is only one person of interest responsible.
He has an MO
He is only interested in money.
I am really interested in the last proof of life
For me, it’s the phone call to Sally
For others it’s the passenger card, the bank transactions, the cancellation of RACQ, the use of the Medicare card??
For the NSW police it was Marion’s multiple marriages and lifestyle??
I am really interested in the coroner’s conclusion in February.

 

[mishy66]

I think we are all agreeing that Marion has passed.
IMO there is only one person of interest responsible.
He has an MO
He is only interested in money.
I am really interested in the last proof of life
For me, it’s the phone call to Sally
For others it’s the passenger card, the bank transactions, the cancellation of RACQ, the use of the Medicare card??
For the NSW police it was Marion’s multiple marriages and lifestyle??
I am really interested in the coroner’s conclusion in February.

100% agree with you


The one other "proof of life" thing was her credit card being used on 1st September. Cant possibly see that was her either

 

[Brown Alleycat]

100% agree with you


The one other "proof of life" thing was her credit card being used on 1st September. Cant possibly see that was her either

Do we know where her credit card was used on 1st September and for what?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

One thing about if M's life ended in Australia and not UK / Holland is that RB would have more agency and control over what became of her if he personally ended her life and disposed of her. Australia being a vast country with endless wild remote areas. The UK being a densely populated tiny island where people notice things and it's very rare a person remains never located. JMO MOO

 

[mishy66]

Do we know where her credit card was used on 1st September and for what?

No they havent said

 

[*juniper*]

We are all on the same team here, and I agree there are compelling arguments that Marion did not return but I have always believed it was Marion who flew back to Australia.

My initial reason for believing that Marion did return was due to the total misinformation on her passenger cards. I first thought that AKA was trying to delink Marions old passport/identity and new passport so that it looked like she (Marion Barter) disappeared somewhere in UK/Europe. So the focus was on looking for MB around Tunbridge Wells but she could not be traced because she was travelling under the FNMR name.

I now think that he was trying everything he could think of to confuse and set up false leads. This includes the misleading info on her passenger cards, the Hotel Nikko Narita notepaper, the multiple post cards that NEVER gave any concrete information about where she was staying (so she couldn’t be traced), the eye appointment in Grafton and the withdrawals from Burleigh Heads. He is just trying everything to confuse and distance himself from Marion. MOO – I doubt that Marion ever stayed with him in Japan because he could not afford to be linked to her & certainly not travel on the same flight as her.

My current thinking – very early in the scam – maybe when Marion changed her name to FNMR or shortly after, AKA realised that he had made a tactical error by using an identity that could be linked back to him. However after Marion disappeared, the new name almost disappeared with her. It was only Sally’s perseverance that led to the NSW police connecting the FNMR name change to Marion years later. And the QLD licence was found years later again.

What would have happened if Marion, now FNMR, had gone to the police with a tale of being scammed – as did GGB, JO, AF, GDD & ‘Charlotte’? A quick search of her new surname would have brought up a current driving licence for FNR in Mt Warren Park Qld. But, this identity was not supported by a tax file number, medicare number or on the electoral roll – so basically a licence for a person who did not exist. And who knows the legality of whatever documents were used to support the licence. This is concrete stuff that can be investigated more easily than a romance scam.

Sadly, I think that even before Marion left Australia, preparations were being made for her to disappear and make it look like she had stayed in Europe or headed off to Luxembourg to start a new life as a married woman. JMO

 

[Deleted member 83851]

Honestly I don’t know.

There seems to be stronger evidence that she did come back. My opinion has been influenced by the revelation of Monsieur AKA as a man interested in poisons, especially the kind which allow a remote death.