Australia Australia - Michael, 29, Norah, 27, & Ellen Murphy, 18, Gatton, Qld, 26 Dec 1898

  • #121
dougie, if the police did such a great job, why did they let the No. 1 prime suspect (Thomas Day) walk away scot free and unhindered ? Why did they not even bother to check his background ?

Hi Quock......Nobody is saying the police "did a great job".They failed ,at least they failed to find the killer (s). But that isnt to say they hadnt tried their best,which is a whole lot different than saying "they lost interest every time they found a clue".
Thomas Day obviously wasnt the "number 1 suspect" to those closest to the case and in possession of whatever facts there were.The case against Day today is a case built on what we dont know,rather than what we do.Ok he lived (temporarily) in the vicinity- he was strong,- he could have done it.That applied to many others,so why exactly should we suspect him more than anyone else?
He was checked out and his room and belongings searched..he was questioned,and it seems the only thing anyone can pin on him is the fact his reading habits were rather highbrow:scared:That seems a rather poor excuse to hang a man. He informed the police he was leaving Gatton,he asked if it was ok to do so.He was told yes, Day acted in a reasonable and proper manner regarding his exit from Gatton.Thats not exactly walking away "scot free" .To walk away "scot free" would suggest he was guilty of something in first place,but there was nothing to incriminate him apparently.
 
  • #122
This is interesting and offers a possible different aspect on the killings.
Urquart at the commission.
re ..calibre of cartidge at murder scene.
That cartridge could be fired either from a revolver or a sporting rifle. I am inclined to think that it was fired from a sporting rifle. If it had been fired from a revolver no empty cartridge case would have been found on the ground,because there is no necessity to unload the chamber of a revolver ,whereas to fire a second shot out of a sporting rifle it would be necessary to exctract the shell before the second shot could be fired.

I d like to hear Stan Reids opinion on that statement,because I believe you know quite a lot about rifles guns etc..unless ive got you mixed up with someone else maybe..my apologies if I have Stan.:bang:

But anyway if Urquarts opinion is correct it opens the possibility that michael murphy might have been shot from a lot farther away than has been commonly accepted......which might alter things quite a lot.
 
  • #123
Just seen your post, separated at birth lol

I'm not having any luck with the butchers shop and the fire :(
 
  • #124
This is interesting and offers a possible different aspect on the killings.
Urquart at the commission.
re ..calibre of cartidge at murder scene.
That cartridge could be fired either from a revolver or a sporting rifle. I am inclined to think that it was fired from a sporting rifle. If it had been fired from a revolver no empty cartridge case would have been found on the ground,because there is no necessity to unload the chamber of a revolver ,whereas to fire a second shot out of a sporting rifle it would be necessary to exctract the shell before the second shot could be fired.

I d like to hear Stan Reids opinion on that statement,because I believe you know quite a lot about rifles guns etc..unless ive got you mixed up with someone else maybe..my apologies if I have Stan.:bang:

But anyway if Urquarts opinion is correct it opens the possibility that michael murphy might have been shot from a lot farther away than has been commonly accepted......which might alter things quite a lot.

Yes, what you say is true in almost all cases. There is such a thing as a revolver rifle, like the Brevete Colt Dragoon revolving rifle, but they are very rare. There were also some early automatic pistols on the market by 1898, like the Borchardt and the Mauser "Broomhandle", which would also have ejected shell casings. Of course, the perp could have collected up the cartridge cases but they are hard to find sometimes even in the daytime.
 
  • #125
MTM, I believe the horse killed belonged to the Murphys.

It was possibly elderly, being "slow and somewhat deaf" as it's been described, and McNeill was probably the one who fetched it in from the field at the Murphy farm and hitched it to his dog cart. I really must go back and see if that is 100% so.

The Murphys had a lot of horses, about 20 at the time. Michael raced one of his horses at the races they attended that day, so I'm assuming they had some thoroughbred stock as well as the usual draught breeds.

I think I recall some reportage regarding that particular horse... will see if I can find it. I am sure someone complained about the choice of horse to pull the dog cart that night but maybe that was just me thinking old deafy would be a bit frustrating if one was setting out, already late for a dance..

Yup, I agree with you on the possibilities of 'why'.
 
  • #126
MTM, I believe the horse killed belonged to the Murphys.

It was possibly elderly, being "slow and somewhat deaf" as it's been described, and McNeill was probably the one who fetched it in from the field at the Murphy farm and hitched it to his dog cart. I really must go back and see if that is 100% so.

The Murphys had a lot of horses, about 20 at the time. Michael raced one of his horses at the races they attended that day, so I'm assuming they had some thoroughbred stock as well as the usual draught breeds.

I think I recall some reportage regarding that particular horse... will see if I can find it. I am sure someone complained about the choice of horse to pull the dog cart that night but maybe that was just me thinking old deafy would be a bit frustrating if one was setting out, already late for a dance..

Yup, I agree with you on the possibilities of 'why'.

OK...So Murphy's horse, McNeill's rig. And an old horse at that. Well then he really wouldn't have a reason to hesitate to kill the horse, then, I guess.
 
  • #127
......There is quite enough of a mystery involved in this case without adding innuendo,rumours and mere suspicion to the mix.

dougie, you seem to be suffering from the same sort of mental block that afflicted Inspector Frederick Charles Urquhart, whose reason for letting go of Thomas Day was along the lines of "we had no reason for holding him". One can only imagine the incredulous looks on the faces of the members of the Inquiry when Urquhart came out with that one ! I looked up the word "detect" (and thus "detective", which Urquhart claimed to be) in my Dictionary, and here's what it said - "Detect ; to uncover, expose, to accuse ; to discover, discern, to find out (esp. something elusive or secret)". It would seem that Urquhart had his own version of what a detective actually does, and in his (very brief) dealings with the prime suspect Day, it is apparent that as the suspect did not throw up his hands and confess to the crime, how could he be guilty ? It was a tragic and inexplicable neglect of duty for Urquhart not to even bother checking out Day's story and background, especially as the guy was only around for a couple of weeks. Take a look at the map below - the very fact that Day was in close proximity to the crime must make him, at least, a contender for being the murderer. He was also frequently seen either standing and smoking, or walking along the road. Add to this the description by his employer and workmate that he was very aloof, would hardly speak a word (remember the man standing near the sliprails was only heard to grunt or said nothing to other passers-by that night), usually slept with his clothes and boots on (Quoting from Constable Christie's Report - "...Mr. Clarke (Day's employer) informed the constable that during night-time, whenever he had occasion to go to Day's room he always found Day with his clothes and boots on, and lying in bed on top of the bedclothes and always easily awakened. The least knock at the room Day would hear it and come out, and he always kept the door and window open at night. Mr. Clarke considers Day was a bad character, and after the Gatton murders Clarke distrusted Day, and while working about the boilers at the slaughter yard Clarke had an impression that Day would throw him into the boilers......(Unquote), and was a very physically strong young man. If all that didn't make Urquhart want to thoroughly check Day out, then the only conclusion that I can arrive at is either Urquhart was completely stupid (which I doubt), or else orders had come from higher up to "leave Day alone". Remember too, that other police (the Constable R.G. Christie above for one) suspected that Day had done it, but were ordered by Urquhart to drop that line of enquiry. This is not innuendo, rumours and mere suspicion dougie, but cold hard facts, which our Inspector Urquhart chose to ignore completely. I will let the Royal Commissioners sum it up (in their report dated 29 November 1899)..."We are of the opinion that sufficiently exhaustive investigation and inquiry were not made in every instance as regards suspects."
 

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  • #128
dougie, you seem to be suffering from the same sort of mental block that afflicted Inspector Frederick Charles Urquhart

The Murphy case has always, as far as I can see, been a highly contentious one, seeing that there was so many conflicting points of view (on the Murphys alone, never mind the actual suspects) and also potentially valid theories.

Can we just keep it civil, though..?
 
  • #129
Michael's bullet wound was downward, from behind the ear, down towards his neck, that's why initially they couldn't find it. Unless the shooter was up a tree, watching the fireworks or looking for the Murphy's coming up the road. Then there's the possibility Michael may have been walking and the shooter could have been driving the cart but that doesn't work for me either (not yet anyway)

The use of a deaf horse makes me think it was chosen because of the fireworks.
 
  • #130
....Can we just keep it civil, though..?
I very much hope so - I'm as keen as anyone is to unravel this mystery, but I try to think laterally, not just trot out the same old stuff that's been floating around for 114 years.
A couple of more questions - I cannot find anything in any of the witness statements that hints about whether or not there was corresponding pieces of skull & brains at the murder site. If the murders were committed elsewhere, the skulls would just have a large chunk missing. If the murders were done at the scene, there should have been found the missing parts of the skulls close by. Also, why did Urquhart completely disregard the unanimous opinion of the 4 expert black-trackers ? They all agreed on one man as the culprit.........
 
  • #131
I know at least 2 shots were fired, do we know if there were more? What was the caliber?
 
  • #132
Robin -- fireworks. I'd forgotten about the fireworks! And what time they were going off.. which may well make sense of Old Deafy (I've also forgotten the horse's name, go me).

I'd actually wondered whether Michael was shot from horseback - or someone standing on the side of the cart - thinking, in his seat in the cart, he'd be slightly lower maybe, and was dispatched pretty quick so he had little time to bleed before being shoved out. Or - he was just told to get on his knees once they were at the paddock. Very little (or no, depending on what you read) blood was found in the cart, but I have to assume the three Murphys were either fooled or co-erced at gunpoint into entering the paddock without a huge fight or fuss... And the majority of the violence escalated once they were out of the vehicle.

This is why the police were so very interested in the state of the sliprails (and McNeill's various stories about those) - as somebody would have had to drop the rails to let the cart in. And then put them back up - maybe. Depending on which version you read... Which might have in turn hinted to the way things panned out.

Stan, yes - two shots, definitely, one for the horse and one for Michael, that's for sure.

It's very late here now but tomorrow will dig about for ballistics info. And the name of that horse.. and what time the fireworks started.

Now I'm tiredly wondering if they were invited into the paddock to watch the fireworks. Maybe they had a good view from there..
 
  • #133
dougie, you seem to be suffering from the same sort of mental block that afflicted Inspector Frederick Charles Urquhart, whose reason for letting go of Thomas Day was along the lines of "we had no reason for holding him". One can only imagine the incredulous looks on the faces of the members of the Inquiry when Urquhart came out with that one ! I looked up the word "detect" (and thus "detective", which Urquhart claimed to be) in my Dictionary, and here's what it said - "Detect ; to uncover, expose, to accuse ; to discover, discern, to find out (esp. something elusive or secret)". It would seem that Urquhart had his own version of what a detective actually does, and in his (very brief) dealings with the prime suspect Day, it is apparent that as the suspect did not throw up his hands and confess to the crime, how could he be guilty ? It was a tragic and inexplicable neglect of duty for Urquhart not to even bother checking out Day's story and background, especially as the guy was only around for a couple of weeks. Take a look at the map below - the very fact that Day was in close proximity to the crime must make him, at least, a contender for being the murderer. He was also frequently seen either standing and smoking, or walking along the road. Add to this the description by his employer and workmate that he was very aloof, would hardly speak a word (remember the man standing near the sliprails was only heard to grunt or said nothing to other passers-by that night), usually slept with his clothes and boots on (Quoting from Constable Christie's Report - "...Mr. Clarke (Day's employer) informed the constable that during night-time, whenever he had occasion to go to Day's room he always found Day with his clothes and boots on, and lying in bed on top of the bedclothes and always easily awakened. The least knock at the room Day would hear it and come out, and he always kept the door and window open at night. Mr. Clarke considers Day was a bad character, and after the Gatton murders Clarke distrusted Day, and while working about the boilers at the slaughter yard Clarke had an impression that Day would throw him into the boilers......(Unquote), and was a very physically strong young man. If all that didn't make Urquhart want to thoroughly check Day out, then the only conclusion that I can arrive at is either Urquhart was completely stupid (which I doubt), or else orders had come from higher up to "leave Day alone". Remember too, that other police (the Constable R.G. Christie above for one) suspected that Day had done it, but were ordered by Urquhart to drop that line of enquiry. This is not innuendo, rumours and mere suspicion dougie, but cold hard facts, which our Inspector Urquhart chose to ignore completely. I will let the Royal Commissioners sum it up (in their report dated 29 November 1899)..."We are of the opinion that sufficiently exhaustive investigation and inquiry were not made in every instance as regards suspects."

O.K...1".Day lived in close vicinity"....hardly conclusive evidence is it? On that basis ,you would no doubt have locked up half the neighbourhood?
2."Frequently seen standing and smoking"...Oh I see....well that settles it then ,doesnt it?..must have been him.
3."day slept with his clothes and boots on"........What? he also slept with windows and door open at night! ........Which proves exactly what?
4."Clarke distrusted Day,and thought Day might throw him into the boilers" Well we all know what thought did dont we?
5. "He was silent and aloof "....And?
6. Day was checked out.Now just because the police couldnt find what you want them to have found doesnt mean Urquart was "as dumb as a drum with a hole in it" or suffering from this contagious "mental block" you speak of. Finding no reason to pursue a particular line of inquiry isnt same as ignoring it......ever thought maybe there were things held back ?
If that is the sum total of evidence against Day ,then it would be surprising if Urquart HADNT dismissed Day as a suspect .
Yes Quoit I read earlier your theory that Day was a member of the Royal Family and hence He was given a "free pass".That theory was unworthy of comment then......and nothing has changed since.
 
  • #134
  • #135
Yes Quoit I read earlier your theory that Day was a member of the Royal Family and hence He was given a "free pass".That theory was unworthy of comment then......and nothing has changed since.

...........

Can we just keep it civil, though..?
 
  • #136
...........

I am trying to remain civil Ausgirl.......but if a poster insinuates that another poster is suffering from some kind of mental impairment ( albeit bearing in mind that everyone is entitled to their opinion)Then the offending poster can hardly expect their comment to go unanswered in one form or another.
 
  • #137
Re "why did urquart ignore the unanimous opinion of 4 expert black trackers?"


The trackers came up with a theory based on a particular track..it led from the sliprails to the murder scene and round the ridge.
Q I want to know what was the theory of your boys.
Meston...four of the boys were unanimous in their theory
Q.. WHAT WAS the theory?
A The boys were unanimous about one man.
Q how did it lead to one man?
A well it involves others.
Q you indicated that theory to the minister?
A yes .
What action was taken?
A No action .he did no agree with the theory.
Q the minister,the commissioner,AND urquart disregarded your theory?
A i will place my report at your disposal.I may say the police DID ALL THEY COULD. Urquarts mistake is the whole mistake.
Mr sadleir ...There is no reason for saying that,and we have NO EVIDENCE tin support of that.

Q at any rate your theory was not acted upon?
A NO.ITS A DIFFICULT THEORY TO ACT UPON.

again it seems this "theory "was only a "theory" in a theory kind of way.Even the creator of that theory admits that it was a difficult theory to act upon.So where does that take us.But at any rate it dispels the myth that Urquart acted as some kind of reckless arbitrator ignoring whatever clue he saw fit to ignore. Urquart,the minister and the commissioner All thought the same apparently about this theory..presumabley this was why it wasnt followed up .
That aside,its hard to see how one track,and one track alone ,with no accompanying physical evidence could identify the culprit.And by the way,the track apparently went nowhere near Days residence ....................
 
  • #138
I'm totally outa here dougie - I'll leave you in charge of solving the crime
 
  • #139
Horse - Lucas ?

Quock, please stay.
 
  • #140
It's a shame we are losing so many people from this discussion, when it's such an old and interesting crime. Not to mention still hideous, a century later..

Buck up, people, and keep the posts rolling in - with manners and respect for differing opinions and theories, please. We may never solve this crime, but there's certainly a great deal we can still learn from and about it!

Here's my thought for the day:

McNeill had to be some kind of misfortune magnet, with all the bad luck happening to him and people around him..

- His shop burns down.
- His wife suffers some sort of debilitating post-partum paralysis (which didn't stop her going to the races with the Murphys the day they were killed, but seems to have caused her a great deal of trouble usually).
- His brother and sisters in law are heinously murdered.
- A child alone in a buggy almost comes to grief when the horse bolts.

And his general demeanour, words and actions following the Murphy murders -really- makes me want to hunt down how many other disasters happened in McNeill's wake during the course of his lifetime. Just out of interest, like.

He also appears to have been an evidence magnet, happening upon bits and pieces of stuff potentially linked to the crime everywhere he went for a while there.

What a remarkable fellow.

Robin - Lucas? I think so!

Looking at a map, I find some Ryans with land right across the road from the Murphys - and I still haven't worked out what went on with Kate Murphy, and not much else on Edith May Cook either. But the description of a girl on a farm opposite the Murphys who was hard done by -might- have been Kate, if she's from that Ryan-owned property.

Whichever girl it was, had two brothers who were immediate suspects - so I'm gathering from this that ill-feeling was still running high where the issue of Michael's ungentlemanly behaviour was concerned.

I aim to gather some facts and figures regarding the murder scene into one file, at some point. One thing I notice is that all the victims are described as being face-down or mostly so (in Ellen's case).

So how'd McNeill see ants on Norah's face, from 10-12 feet away, and with her face planted downward in between two tree roots?

Clearly, his eyesight was as spectacular as his penchant for dwelling amid disaster.
 

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