Australia - Michael, 52, & Kathryn Walicki, 15, stabbed to death, Sydney, 5 July 2007

[Nova]

When people basically believe Star Trek is real and coming (=scientology) how can anyone still call it a religion? How can anyone even take it seriously?

I can't take it seriously except in principle. On the other hand, if you suddenly encountered a group of people claiming God came to earth as a human being through virgin birth and then ascended bodily back to heaven, you'd have trouble taking that seriously, too.

Now for me, personally, Scientology (and much of the Book of Mormon, if I'm honest) seems laughable, but Christian dogma is deeply moving whether or not I believe those events happened (in the objective, scientific sense). The difference, though, is entirely when I encountered those beliefs and how deeply they were reinforced by my culture. There's no logical argument for one set of beliefs over another.

ETA: from the article: The woman told Dr Cross that her feelings started to worsen three weeks before the killings and that her parents allowed her to restart her anti-psychotic medication as it helped her to sleep.

So that basically blows her defense to pieces. Hate to be her lawyer!

Indeed. Looks like her religion is beside the point.

 

[Nova]

I don't want to appear to be nit picking about words, buttttttttt, "Cynical and greedy intent," as you have pointed out is evil. Greedy = Greed =

I Timothy 6:10: For the love of money is the root of all evil.

I won't compromise, Scientology has no foundation. IMO, Most of the people involved in this organized group are looking for sense of belonging that they haven't found in their personal lives like family, or a God based belief system.

I feel our lives should be centered around our salvation, love, healing, unitedness, etc...

I know the passage, Kool. (I even know it's "the love of money," not money, per se, as it is usually quoted.)

If "evil" just means something that causes harm, fine. But if it means a malevolent supernatural force, I don't believe in it, no matter what terrible things human beings do.

 

[Nova]

Nope Nova I would not...
Its all the same to me.

The key word in your post to me is DEVOUT
In my mind that is as good as being brainwashed.
I would say that ANYONE who believes that crap devoutly is "obviously disturbed"

Except conflating devotion and brainwashing removes the aspect of choice, Am. Even the devout usually admit their beliefs require a voluntary leap of faith. (I realize some "born again" rhetoric speaks of being "overtaken" by the Holy Spirit, but even born agains will agree, I think, that one chooses to accept.)

"Brainwashing," on the other hand, implies that others somehow force one to believe certain things that are not true. That usually requires physical confinement, at least.

I agree with you that "religious beliefs" per se do not excuse criminal activity.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I know the passage, Kool. (I even know it's "the love of money," not money, per se, as it is usually quoted.)

If "evil" just means something that causes harm, fine. But if it means a malevolent supernatural force, I don't believe in it, no matter what terrible things human beings do.

I think, I'm following what your saying. Let me say it my way, then tell me if I'm understanding. Are you saying that you believe people can be evil, and that people can do evil things and have nothing driving them to these terrrible acts other than themselves. In other words a person can and does evil bad acts without any force driving them? If you are , I agree with that.

Are you also saying, that you don't believe in evil, like the prince of darkness (devil)? That malevolent word lost me, :innocent: thanks in advance.

 

[Nova]

I think, I'm following what your saying. Let me say it my way, then tell me if I'm understanding. Are you saying that you believe people can be evil, and that people can do evil things and have nothing driving them to these terrrible acts other than themselves. In other words a person can and does evil bad acts without any force driving them? If you are , I agree with that.

Are you also saying, that you don't believe in evil, like the prince of darkness (devil)? That malevolent word lost me, :innocent: thanks in advance.

I think you summed up my view pretty well, Kool. There's no question that people do evil things. All too often, we'll agree.

And of course I understand they are driven to do evil by various forces including poverty, abuse previously done to them, mental illness, etc.

What I don't believe in is the concept of an independent, harmful (I'm avoiding the word malevolent) supernatural force that exists outside of us and compels us to do bad things. So no, I don't believe in Satan (even though I very much believe in God).

(ETA: just wanted to say I am well aware there is no more "scientific" proof for my belief in God than there is for a Scientologist belief in "Thetans." I think we all do well to remember that our leaps of faith are precisely that: non-rational jump to belief in something that can't be proved.)

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Thank you. This was a grown woman. No one made her kill her family. If she wanted/needed psychiatric drugs, she could have obtained them on her own.

The article only references her parents being scientologists, not her.

Not if she was programmed she couldn't. I have personal experiance with this. I am an SRA survivor, and know the programming tactics this poor woman had to endure. Beleive me it was not nice, and often very painful. If her parents are scientoligists, then chances are there children grew up in the same way as the parents.