Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #3

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  • #401
I’ve been thinking about Russel’s locked up vehicle. I don’t know much about cars, however mine can be programmed to lock automatically after a few minutes of engine turned off. Could be the same? IMO

I have had a few thoughts about that, too ...

One is that it was an automatic reaction from whoever was last in there to lock it.
Another is that whoever was last in there was not sure that they were not going to come back and look for more items/move the vehicle/clean it to remove any traces of themselves.
Another is that whoever was last in there just wanted to delay others in any way they could, so locking the vehicle was just one more way of doing that.
Another is that the person who was last in there is someone who was close to Russell, and wanted the vehicle not to be stolen so the vehicle could be returned to the family.
 
  • #402
Interesting how we've all now decided that they were murdered, isn't it. Not some other barely possible option. And not by Buttons. But definitely murdered by person or persons known or unknown.

I've considered murder suicide.
 
  • #403
Interesting how we've all now decided that they were murdered, isn't it. Not some other barely possible option. And not by Buttons. But definitely murdered by person or persons known or unknown.


I'd like to know more about Russell's frame of mind.
 
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  • #404
  • #405
His wife referred to him as a 'silly bugger', did she notice his changed mental state?
When my dad had dementia he started thinking he was a virile youngster again and I remember mum laughing saying 'ah, nothing works anyway'.:D
Mum started protecting him from himself.

I wonder if Russell made some bad decisions on this trip.
I also wonder if Russell was obsessed with the beauty queen Carol, she had a new home and living the single life....and Russell was in fear of losing her as he couldn't commit.

PUBLISHED: 15:03 AEST, 9 April 2020

Mr Hill's wife Robyn, 71, said her husband had been friendly with Ms Clay for decades but she had no idea they were travelling together and now fears they both be dead.

'I just wish they would find them both alive,' Mrs Hill told the Herald Sun.
Mr Hill was last heard from on March 20 when Mrs Hill messaged him over the radio as he entered Wonnangatta.
'I knew something was wrong because he wasn't calling in on the radio,' Mrs Hill said.

Mrs Hill said her husband was very familiar with the area due to his work as a logger but when the weather turned for the worse it was not a good place to be.

She said her husband was a 'silly bugger' and hoped he would return safely.
Wife of missing camper had no idea he had gone on a trip with another woman | Daily Mail Online

Just sleuthing out loud here.
 
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  • #406
if it was a case of m/s it would make sense the truck was saved because it was precious to russell and could be passed on to family, and the site burnt to cover where the event happened, maybe because of guilt, shame, not wanting family or friends to know what he did, the body dragged in the sleeping bag into dense bush where he died too?
but if m/s then who took the credit cards and drone?
 
  • #407
"I don't think that it is so significant because they are shovels and not spades and you can't dig holes with shovels, but it has to be looked at," he said.

Choosing the wrong equipment for digging could just indicate the person wasn't used to using spades or shovels for work or gardening & didn't know the difference. Alternatively, those cheap shovels might have been all they could buy at short notice, or all they could afford and they hoped they would do the job.

I always thought spades & shovels were much the same thing until a couple of years ago. When people said someone "called a spade a bloody shovel" as opposed to "called a spade a spade", I just assumed shovels were big spades. I only realised spades were for cutting & digging and shovels for scooping when I was online shopping on a gardening site a couple of years ago.
 
  • #408
Why was he asking for directions to Dargo? One route from Wonangatta to Hotham is via Dargo.
 
  • #409
"I don't think that it is so significant because they are shovels and not spades and you can't dig holes with shovels, but it has to be looked at," he said.

Choosing the wrong equipment for digging could just indicate the person wasn't used to using spades or shovels for work or gardening & didn't know the difference. Alternatively, those cheap shovels might have been all they could buy at short notice, or all they could afford and they hoped they would do the job.

I always thought spades & shovels were much the same thing until a couple of years ago. When people said someone "called a spade a bloody shovel" as opposed to "called a spade a spade", I just assumed shovels were big spades. I only realised spades were for cutting & digging and shovels for scooping when I was online shopping on a gardening site a couple of years ago.
I don't think it fits with the rest of the crime to suppose the perpetrator/s didn't know what tool to use to dig a hole. They've conducted and limited an intense fire where you might expect bushfire risk, killed two people and removed the bodies without leaving blood/flesh evidence, got in and out of a remote location requiring good 4WD skills and I imagine a fair bit of equipment to deal with accidents.
 
  • #410
The square blade of the shovel is more effective for digging a vehicle out of snow, than for digging in soil. Back in the day, we carried such shovels when skiing at Buller or Hotham.

The two that LE have retrieved may not have anything to do with this case. It's a bit unfathomable that any murderer would dispose of shovels by casually leaving them in the bush, rather than at least burying them.

If those shovels are connected with the disappearance of Carol and Russell, perhaps they were ditched in a moment of panic, for example, if the white ute was indeed the getaway vehicle, when public appeals for information about it were made, IMO, the occupant/s of it would have been seriously alarmed.

It still appears to be very careless disposal of potential evidence, especially if it was done by the same person/s who killed Russell and Carol, and took the time and effort to burn their campsite in an effort to conceal evidence.

Something that puzzles me particularly is the appearance that someone rifled through Russell's vehicle, and left cards from his wallet strewn on the seat, then locked the door of it.

When was this done? It's difficult to imagine it taking place whilst Russell and Carol were alive or conscious, unless they were restrained in some way.
Or were they asleep in their tent, woke up, and challenged the vehicle's intruder/s, which ended in their murders?

It's likewise difficult to imagine after killing two people, heaving their bodies to anywhere at all, a perp. would dally at the murder scene to search a victim's vehicle for what? Credit cards, whose usage can be traced?

The rifling through the car puzzles me as well. It makes me wonder whether the person/s were looking for some type of evidence that would identify them (ie: car rego) - just thinking about the theory of Russell's drone capturing illegal activities which might have also captured pictures of the van/four wheel drive that the perpetrators were driving thus they wanted to make sure that he hadn't written any identifying information down.

I wonder whether Russell would be a confrontational type of person - did the perpetrators track him down after seeing the drone following them, to confront him and demand the footage?! Did Russell threaten to take the footage to the Police and report them...
 
  • #411
The car could have been rummaged through to appear like a burglary gone wrong. The removal of items would give that impression but as far as locking it goes I'm not sure of the significance. If it was someone known to the victims perhaps they were counting on the car coming back into family possession and why burn it when it can be sold for a sum?
 
  • #412
I had to look that up as well - do a thread search. It is a member's theory as to why Russell's vehicle doesn't have a side mirror on the passenger side.

See post 193 in this link.
Deceased/Not Found - Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #3

I was of the opinion the mirror may had been taken by the perpetrator. Russell is a tall, solid bloke if a bit old and surely capable and confident to be camping remotely. A confrontation at Russels tent from a stranger breaking out into a push and shove knocking or damaging the mirror isn’t far fetched.

Russell hits his head, carol is there, she has to go too...

Although why not just chuck the mirror on the fire if he was worried about DNA/fingerprint. Perhaps he was unsure so took it with him to toss remotely. Perhaps it was knocked off earlier and that’s what they were looking for inside his car.

The planned hit angle never sat well with me unless the wife had finally had enough. Makes far more sense he just ran into someone who’s been living in the boonies for far too long.

When you live truly remote you can go years without seeing police. You break the law regularly there are no consequences. You end up with someone confident they can get away with anything they do. There’s a reason some people live in these places.
 
  • #413
The mirror could be a trophy.
 
  • #414
if it was a case of m/s it would make sense the truck was saved because it was precious to russell and could be passed on to family, and the site burnt to cover where the event happened, maybe because of guilt, shame, not wanting family or friends to know what he did, the body dragged in the sleeping bag into dense bush where he died too?
but if m/s then who took the credit cards and drone?

I just can't see Russell being able to drag Carols body very far away and hide it without leaving traces of sleeping bag and clothing on any spiky bushes. And there was deer carcasses still there a week later when searching so I cant see wild dog or other predators eating people in sleeping bags over a fresh deer carcass.
 
  • #415
The berry sprayer that was camped nearby said he heard Russell's drone flying at the time. I wonder if he got too close to the wrong persons camp, he may not have realised how loud it was to people he was flying over. I would not take lightly to someone flying an annoying loud drone over my camp in a remote place like that. I think because Russell couldnt hear the drone from where he was he probably thought the other people he was flying over couldnt hear it either. I think the type of people out there hunting and beheading deers would easily be capable of carrying it out. I would think the drone footage from previous trips on his computer would tell straight away if he was flying to close to others camps or if he was high enough no one would hear it and take offense.
 
  • #416
Why was he asking for directions to Dargo? One route from Wonangatta to Hotham is via Dargo.

Russell left his Drouin home on March 19 and planned to visit various campsites along the Dargo River with his route exiting the region at Dargo on March 26.
Plea for assistance renewed
 
  • #417
Maybe not physically but what about mentally?
He doesn't look the type to accept a nursing home, i think he'd put up a argument bc has that look about him... If it was murder/suicide? You'd think something would be found by now . How far could they get if not in best of health condition.
 
  • #418
The left side mirror would fit in one of the Brown evidence bags the police were photographed with at Hotham. So would Lots of things (obviously), but just thinking out loud. In saying that though it’s totally feasible he knocked it off on the way into Won in a completely innocuous way.
Those mirrors are so common, other than dna or finger prints on it etc, would the police be able to prove anything if they did find someone with it/found it with the shovels?

It has dawned on me that the glowing cookie cutter references of a ‘loving father’ or ‘doting grandfather’ etc etc whatever they might be are conspicuous in their absence from the media. I know it was mentioned by others previously, but at first I had thought maybe it was because they perhaps live their lives out of the spotlight and off social media and would be mortified to be thrown into and spoken about personally in the spotlight.

Again, just thinking out loud.
 
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  • #419
  • #420
The left side mirror would fit in one of the Brown evidence bags the police were photographed with at Hotham. So would
Lots of things (obviously), but just thinking out loud. In saying that though it’s totally feasible he knocked it off on the way into Won in a completely innocuous way.

Those mirrors are so common, other than dna or finger prints on it etc, would the police be able to prove anything if they did find someone with it/found it with the shovels?
Most likely a innocuous accident on the way . if the imagination carries on , it could be a kick of frustration, a kick of remorse. . Or left at home
 
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