Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020

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  • #461
Mr. Buttons seems like a real character...I am always leery about people who hunt. The act of killing and harvesting animals takes a mindset that I don't have...

Agreed. But hunts to survive. Not hang trophy’s in his office. Got sport? Nope. Like that picture of the woman who shot a giraffe. I’m so impressed. Euk. Or poachers.
ETA: What did I mean got sport? I’m a loose canon. Auto correct. probably meant not me. Late. Sorry all.
 
  • #462
Tinker and Panda, there seems to be at least two time lines in all the articles that have been published regarding when RH and CC camp was discovered and when LE was contacted.
I just picked these two daily mail articles as an example, but I read through 6 other articles all of which had varying time lines for when LE discovered the burnt down campsite--one article even said the torched campsite was discovered on March 27th!
In this article published 9 days ago the camp was discovered 2 days after it burnt down: "Their disappearance has baffled local authorities who found their campsite burned out two days later.".
[snip]
Chilling twist in case of married man who vanished with 'glamour queen' friend on a camping trip | Daily Mail Online
I thought the first articles published on this case stated that another camper came upon RH and CC's burnt campsite the following day and called authorities. It could be that it took a day to confirm the campsite occupants and the owner of the scorched truck.

The article I read also said other campers discovered the burnt out tent and his vehicle at 2pm the day after and the fire was already cold. This is what made me suggest that the fire must have started during the previous night (in order for it to have been cold) and therefore they would have been asleep at the time. It kind of makes more sense than there being two separate incidents: either they were lost while looking for the drone AND the camp caught alight by unknown means; or they were taken from their camp and murdered/found in the bush and murdered, followed by the murderer burning down their tent but leaving their vehicle untouched.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pearance-campers-Russell-Hill-Carol-Clay.html
Police suspect foul play involved in the disappearance of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay | Daily Mail Online[/URL said:

Yes, this makes sense. If she hadn't heard him on the radio for a few days, she might suspect a problem due to his heart condition. You would think though that the Police wouldn't have waited a few days to contact his wife after finding the burned out tent with the vehicle alongside and all their belongings inside. So, I'm inclined to think it was a few days before the camp was found (not the day after). Then we don't know how long it took for them to to organise a search, given Covid 19 it actually might have been a week before they began looking for them in bushland.




Thanks for your assistance with this. I know there is lots of MSM information that seems contradictory. Now it appears that there was a key hidden on the vehicle, but the key to the vehicle was not found (assumed taken by Russell). However, it makes no sense at all that one of the theories was that they had run off together. Firstly, why run off and leave their vehicle with all their possessions, including (presumably) her handbag and his wallet?
 
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  • #463
The article I read also said other campers discovered the burnt out tent and his vehicle at 2pm the day after and the fire was already cold. This is what made me suggest that the fire must have started during the previous night (in order for it to have been cold) and therefore they would have been asleep at the time. It kind of makes more sense than there being two separate incidents: either they were lost while looking for the drone AND the camp caught alight by unknown means; or they were taken from their camp and murdered/found in the bush and murdered, followed by the murderer burning down their tent but leaving their vehicle untouched.


Yes, this makes sense. If he hadn't been heard him on the radio for a few days, she might suspect a problem due to his heart condition. You would think though that the Police wouldn't have waited a few days to contact his wife after finding the burned out tent with the vehicle alongside and all their belongings inside. So, I'm inclined to think it was a few days before the camp was found (not the day after). Then we don't know how long it took for them to to organise a search, given Covid 19 it actually might have been a week before they began looking for them in bushland.




Thanks for your assistance with this. I know there is lots of MSM information that seems contradictory. Now it appears that there was a key hidden on the vehicle, but the key to the vehicle was not found (assumed taken by Russell). However, it makes no sense at all that one of the theories was that they had run off together. Firstly, why run off and leave their vehicle with all their possessions, including (presumably) her handbag and his wallet?
BBM--Discovering the burnt site is one thing and reporting it is another. Even if the police weren't aware of the site for some days or a week or whatever, it doesn't follow that it wasn't discovered by campers the day after the radio transmission as they said.
 
  • #464
But wouldn't her drivers licence have had her old address on it, given that she had only moved into her new home a week previously? Unless Carol and the Victorian authorities are super efficient?!

True. I had forgotten she had only moved a week or so prior.
 
  • #465
It took me awhile to research the news articles for the various info--and after I posted my comments, I come back and see you have posted a new comment--and we are both busy thinking along the same lines...

Well, you know what they say about great minds ... hahahaha!
 
  • #466
The camper who discovered the burnt site did not report this until returning.. therefore several days elapsed.
A burnt site with a car parked next to it would indicate to the person that the owner of the car has already sought help.
No action required. Nothing to be concerned about.
So no alarm was raised until Mrs RH eventually became concerned several days after she last heard him on the radio.
It's unlucky for this incident to occur on only the second day of a longish trip into the wilderness.
The wife would not be overly concerned until several days elapsed.
This area is probably the safest place * on the planet *... unless you get lost
 
  • #467
The camper who discovered the burnt site did not report this until returning.. therefore several days elapsed.
A burnt site with a car parked next to it would indicate to the person that the owner of the car has already sought help.
No action required. Nothing to be concerned about.
So no alarm was raised until Mrs RH eventually became concerned several days after she last heard him on the radio.
It's unlucky for this incident to occur on only the second day of a longish trip into the wilderness.
The wife would not be overly concerned until several days elapsed.
This area is probably the safest place * on the planet *... unless you get lost

Thanks Ramjet. I couldn't remember and couldn't be stuffed trawling back to find out! As you say, unless you get lost ... it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who get lost each year in either State Forests or National Parks.
 
  • #468
This area is probably the safest place * on the planet *... unless you get lost

This is why I'm inclined to think accident/misadventure rather than murder.
 
  • #469
Thanks Ramjet. I couldn't remember and couldn't be stuffed trawling back to find out! As you say, unless you get lost ... it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who get lost each year in either State Forests or National Parks.
When I go bush for several days I am nervous the first day ... words to myself ... "don't get into trouble .. you won't be missed"
 
  • #470
The neighbour who saw Russell there, if it was at the new house must have got to know Carol pretty quickly.


True. I had forgotten she had only moved a week or so prior.
 
  • #471
The neighbour who saw Russell there, if it was at the new house must have got to know Carol pretty quickly.
Yes, they must have been sticky-beaks.
 
  • #472
The article I read also said other campers discovered the burnt out tent and his vehicle at 2pm the day after and the fire was already cold. This is what made me suggest that the fire must have started during the previous night (in order for it to have been cold) and therefore they would have been asleep at the time. It kind of makes more sense than there being two separate incidents: either they were lost while looking for the drone AND the camp caught alight by unknown means; or they were taken from their camp and murdered/found in the bush and murdered, followed by the murderer burning down their tent but leaving their vehicle untouched.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pearance-campers-Russell-Hill-Carol-Clay.html

Yes, this makes sense. If she hadn't heard him on the radio for a few days, she might suspect a problem due to his heart condition. You would think though that the Police wouldn't have waited a few days to contact his wife after finding the burned out tent with the vehicle alongside and all their belongings inside. So, I'm inclined to think it was a few days before the camp was found (not the day after). Then we don't know how long it took for them to to organise a search, given Covid 19 it actually might have been a week before they began looking for them in bushland.




Thanks for your assistance with this. I know there is lots of MSM information that seems contradictory. Now it appears that there was a key hidden on the vehicle, but the key to the vehicle was not found (assumed taken by Russell). However, it makes no sense at all that one of the theories was that they had run off together. Firstly, why run off and leave their vehicle with all their possessions, including (presumably) her handbag and his wallet?
Tink, thank you for organizing and commenting on what I posted--I think too...multiple people became aware at roughly the same time that there was a problem concerning RH and CC and their campsite, which led to multiple news reports with contrasting information and time lines. Based on what has been published in the news about RH and CC...this is how it's beginning to appear to me. 1. Within 24 hours another camper drove by and saw the burnt out campsite and contacted local authorities. 2. Mrs. Hill became alarmed when she didn't hear from her husband and called for help. 3. Local authorities arrived at RH and CC's campsite and started the process of searching for the missing campers while running an inquiry on RH's vehicle license plate. 4. When local LE received the info. on RH's truck, they contacted LE where RH lived and received verification from his wife that she had not heard from RH and was worried. 4. Local authorities then broke into RH's truck and discovered CC's belongings and LE in CC's hometown started contacting her family. 5. With RH and CC both identified by LE...they upgraded their search efforts to reflect an emergency situation. So, how long did all of this take from when the campsite was first discovered to when the search for RH and CC became a full blown crisis search for them? My guesstimation is one week from March 20th.
 
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  • #473
I think someone (maybe panda) already answered why he is called the button man.
As for why he might have been looking for him, it’s all just town gossip far as I know, no substantial evidence that he WAS looking for him, but there have been other rumours that the button man might have been involved in other strange disappearances and also he sounds like he’s just a real unusual guy, living out in the bush on his own and scaring hunters and campers, so someone who had heard about him and was intrigued might go looking. There’s also the chance he might have met him before, there are story’s of the button man walking into peoples camps out of the blue and asking them questions and maki g people uncomfortable, if that had happened to Russell (which is possible considering he was in the area often) he might have told the story to others in the area, heard some of the rumours and decided to do some more digging.
I don’t necessarily think it’s a likely scenario but it’s possible. It could be a reason why they’ve gone missing rather than just a freak set of coincidences or accidents.
Yes, nice very summary about Mr. Buttons...one other aspect to Mr. Buttons that was published in the news articles about him is he uses pebbles (stacking them in a pile) to keep track of vehicles passing through the road areas--that suggests to me that Mr. Buttons is highly aware of who is coming and going in the areas where he lives, and why should he care about that?? Does he track deer the same way??? Tracking anything means hunting down something for a reason.
 
  • #474
From Express Digest:

"He is understood to have earned his nickname due to his hobby of using deer antlers to make buttons – which he then uses as large ear piercings.

Using well crafted traditional spears, the man is known to camp for weeks on end in remote bushlands and hunt for deer, the Age reported."
Panda, I hope LE has taken a closer look at Mr. Buttons and his various collection of things...since it has been reported that Mr. Button's is a nomadic dweller in the Wonnangatta Valley with no specific home base, LE needs to canvass places in the valley where Mr. Buttons could have hidden and stored his belongings. According to various news articles about him, Mr. Buttons seems like he has taken psychological possession of the valley, and views anything in it as being under his authority and control...he reminds me of the childhood story about The Troll Under The Bridge...
 
  • #475
  • #476
This is why I'm inclined to think accident/misadventure rather than murder.
tinker, sometimes the look of a place and/or a person can be hugely deceiving...one terrible example is Laura Vogel...Laura Vogel – The Charley Project but I am from there, and Hawaii is the best example...how 'paradise" is a great place for camouflaging predators...
 
  • #477
Excerpts from another article from Channel 9:

"The man, known as "Button Man" or "Buttons", frequently roams the high country for weeks on end, using a spear to hunt.

He's also known to carve buttons out of deer antlers.

Locals have told of several strange encounters with the man, who is known to pop out of nowhere and surprise hikers.

On one occasion he is said to have asked campers to come and have a look at his axe collection.

The man who was the last person to speak with Mr Hill, his radio friend Robbie Ashlin, said there was "no way" the 74-year-old would leave his kitted-out white Toyota Landcruiser behind.

"Russell always looked after his equipment," Mr Ashlin said.

Mr Hill's car was returned to the home he shared with his wife of 50 years, before it was seized again by police for further forensic testing."
 
  • #478
More on "Button Man" from Herald Sun:

"When one person disappears without trace in the wilderness, the odds are it is either suicide or accidental death, the sort that coroners call misadventure.

But when several people vanish over a decade, four of them within nine months, rumour and speculation take over.

Up in the ridges and valleys of the Victorian Alps, where wild dogs howl and deer hunters roam, locals are talking about a loner who spends long periods in a remote bush camp.

The lone camper has become a person of interest because the growing gossip about him has reached police.

Early this month Missing Persons investigators made the long trip from Melbourne to Mansfield to have a chat with the oddball character whose behaviour has spooked hunters and hikers in the mountains.

Detectives talked at length with the man and emerged knowing some interesting facts about him — but absolutely nothing more about a string of missing people stretching back at least nine years and possibly more.

They know the person of interest has embraced an alternative lifestyle for many years but does not have any criminal record.

They know that despite his age (just over 70) he is as fit and strong as a much younger man, and is eccentric but intelligent.

They know that when he drives his old four-wheel-drive to “town” for supplies he drinks at a favourite Mansfield pub.

They know that he spends weeks at a time roaming the High Country from a base camp tucked in the bush near a remote weather station close to what locals call “The Crossroads” because three tracks converge there, providing access to other areas.

They know he likes to carve deer antlers he collects in the bush, a harmless hobby for a man skilled with sharp tools.

Finally, they know there is absolutely no evidence to connect him with the disappearances of bushwalker Niels Becker near Mt Stirling late last October.

Nor with the disappearance of Conrad Whitlock near Mt Buller last winter. Nor with the fate of campers Russell Hill and Caroline Clay, who vanished in the Wonnangatta Valley in late March.

Not to mention the controversial and highly-publicised disappearance of former prisons boss David Prideaux from the Tomahawk Hut area in 2011.

There is, of course, nothing to suggest that those missing people met foul play, as it is extremely easy to become lost in the mountains and to die of exposure. Wild dogs and other scavengers soon make bodies disappear.

Because the antler carver spends so much time in the bush, it is obviously difficult for him to provide an alibi for the dates of any or all the disappearances.

This is a problem for the police, not for the carver, because in the eyes of the law he is an innocent person and, rightly, does not have to prove anything to anyone.

But the presumption of innocence does not stop tongues wagging.

Hunters say a deer stalker stumbled over the carver’s camp and reported seeing several homemade spears there. There is, of course, no law against making spears if they are not used to break any laws.

Other stories are harder to verify and, being second hand, have a whiff of urban myth. One hunter relays a story from a friend’s in-law at Mansfield.

The in-law, a keen photographer, went camping in the bush near the Crossroads a few summers ago. He slept in his small tent, his camera nearby. After going home, he inspected his photographs and, he claims, found one of himself lying asleep, taken at close range. Meaning whoever took it must have crept in and taken it as a “joke”.

It sounds like a tall story.

When the man appeared uninvited at one campfire in recent months, he made awkward conversation with the campers.

Which is why one police source said this week that while investigators have absolutely no reason to be suspicious of the carver, it’s hard not to be intrigued by him."
 
  • #479
More on "Button Man" from Herald Sun:

"When one person disappears without trace in the wilderness, the odds are it is either suicide or accidental death, the sort that coroners call misadventure.

But when several people vanish over a decade, four of them within nine months, rumour and speculation take over.

Up in the ridges and valleys of the Victorian Alps, where wild dogs howl and deer hunters roam, locals are talking about a loner who spends long periods in a remote bush camp.

The lone camper has become a person of interest because the growing gossip about him has reached police.

Early this month Missing Persons investigators made the long trip from Melbourne to Mansfield to have a chat with the oddball character whose behaviour has spooked hunters and hikers in the mountains.

Detectives talked at length with the man and emerged knowing some interesting facts about him — but absolutely nothing more about a string of missing people stretching back at least nine years and possibly more.

They know the person of interest has embraced an alternative lifestyle for many years but does not have any criminal record.

They know that despite his age (just over 70) he is as fit and strong as a much younger man, and is eccentric but intelligent.

They know that when he drives his old four-wheel-drive to “town” for supplies he drinks at a favourite Mansfield pub.

They know that he spends weeks at a time roaming the High Country from a base camp tucked in the bush near a remote weather station close to what locals call “The Crossroads” because three tracks converge there, providing access to other areas.

They know he likes to carve deer antlers he collects in the bush, a harmless hobby for a man skilled with sharp tools.

Finally, they know there is absolutely no evidence to connect him with the disappearances of bushwalker Niels Becker near Mt Stirling late last October.

Nor with the disappearance of Conrad Whitlock near Mt Buller last winter. Nor with the fate of campers Russell Hill and Caroline Clay, who vanished in the Wonnangatta Valley in late March.

Not to mention the controversial and highly-publicised disappearance of former prisons boss David Prideaux from the Tomahawk Hut area in 2011.

There is, of course, nothing to suggest that those missing people met foul play, as it is extremely easy to become lost in the mountains and to die of exposure. Wild dogs and other scavengers soon make bodies disappear.

Because the antler carver spends so much time in the bush, it is obviously difficult for him to provide an alibi for the dates of any or all the disappearances.

This is a problem for the police, not for the carver, because in the eyes of the law he is an innocent person and, rightly, does not have to prove anything to anyone.

But the presumption of innocence does not stop tongues wagging.

Hunters say a deer stalker stumbled over the carver’s camp and reported seeing several homemade spears there. There is, of course, no law against making spears if they are not used to break any laws.

Other stories are harder to verify and, being second hand, have a whiff of urban myth. One hunter relays a story from a friend’s in-law at Mansfield.

The in-law, a keen photographer, went camping in the bush near the Crossroads a few summers ago. He slept in his small tent, his camera nearby. After going home, he inspected his photographs and, he claims, found one of himself lying asleep, taken at close range. Meaning whoever took it must have crept in and taken it as a “joke”.

It sounds like a tall story.

When the man appeared uninvited at one campfire in recent months, he made awkward conversation with the campers.

Which is why one police source said this week that while investigators have absolutely no reason to be suspicious of the carver, it’s hard not to be intrigued by him."

All this has been discussed here before. No one knows much about him. But given his fast knowledge of the place, he’d be a good person to ask where to hide bodies or where the most dangerous spots are to be found. He can sneak up on you like a cat. He probably knows every trail in the area. If I were LE, I’d be asking for his help. Not trying to pin murders on him.
 
  • #480
All this has been discussed here before. No one knows much about him. But given his fast knowledge of the place, he’d be a good person to ask where to hide bodies or where the most dangerous spots are to be found. He can sneak up on you like a cat. He probably knows every trail in the area. If I were LE, I’d be asking for his help. Not trying to pin murders on him.
He would know all the lookout points. If what's reported as rumoured of him as a surveiller are true, he would know if there was anyone else in the area who would have had the opportunity to remove the pair.
 
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