Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[SouthAussie]

Could you please give some explanation as to just how you came to the conclusion it was an impossibility that the shot that killed CC was not accidental? Have you personally really subjected the alleged scene photographs to indepth scrutiny, or are you relying on what has been reported (in written form) in the media? I personally can recall the ballistics 'expert' giving an answer to DD during his evidence, that included the word "plausible". IMO

If you go back in the thread, I posted a pic of the required angle to have killed Carol in the way in which he said she was killed. Also, you will need to read (or listen to) Greg Lynn's description of the "struggle".

 

[SouthAussie]

I think this is a different issue. The appeal judges ruled that the treatment of the bodies was open to be interpreted as evidence of guilt; and it was for the jury, not the judge, to say whether it counted in that scale or not. 'Fruit of the poisoned tree' is quite a different reason for excluding the evidence; it's saying that police were so unfair in questioning him, none of the information he provided should have been put to the jury, and none of the results of that information--including the discovery of the remains--could be used either. But I don't know what went on behind the scenes over that. Obviously the question was raised.

I don't think it can be fruit of the poisoned tree if the defence wanted the evidence in - as part of Lynn's "truthful story".

I'm not seeing any lawful reason for an appeal. Let's see what Dermot Dann (or whoever) comes up with.

I think - if you read the whole document - the Court of Appeal has already negated many reasons for an appeal, in its pre-trial ruling.

 

[changintimes]

Do you believe GL’s story?

I believe his 'story' when it has been proven to be correct. For instance, the police have based their prosecution on GL upon his evidence of where GL which he stated about certain actions had occurred; like the death of CC. The police went back in 2023 after GL's arrest and re-tested the passenger-side canopy of RH car and then discovered the DNA and other matter that was later verified to belong to CC. If it were not for GL information he had voluntarily supplied during the interview as to where he believed CC 'cowered' and the area he subjected to fire to remove blood evidence that belonged to CC, they would never have known.

GL's 'story' about the battle between himself and RH, to regain possession of his shotgun, I believe, needs to be further subjected to scrutiny. I have read nothing that suggests to me that ballistic studies were carried out at the Bucks Camp scene. I would like to know/understand where exactly these ballistic tests were carried out and how they transferred and used scene plotting measurements in order to ensure that all tests were as accurate as possible.

Did ballistics 'experts' rely upon scene photographs in order to carry out their tests?

 

[changintimes]

I don't think it can be fruit of the poisoned tree if the defence wanted the evidence in - as part of Lynn's "truthful story".

I'm not seeing any lawful reason for an appeal. Let's see what Dermot Dann (or whoever) comes up with.

I think - if you read the whole document - the Court of Appeal has already negated many reasons for an appeal, in its pre-trial ruling.

Just may be there is new and fresh evidence that had not been considered previously.

 

[JudgeJudi]

No. I think perhaps it was GL who decided to steal/confiscate the drone. Then he reversed the story, failing to understand that it wouldn't be plausible because other people aren't like him.

Take a bow JLZ. You’re the only person who has suggested this.
What you’ve said is making me rethink everything.

 

[changintimes]

If you go back in the thread, I posted a pic of the required angle to have killed Carol in the way in which he said she was killed. Also, you will need to read (or listen to) Greg Lynn's description of the "struggle".

Could you please provide a link so that I may read and look at what you describe?

 

[JLZ]

I don't think it can be fruit of the poisoned tree if the defence wanted the evidence in - as part of Lynn's "truthful story".

I'm not seeing any lawful reason for an appeal. Let's see what Dermot Dann (or whoever) comes up with.

I think - if you read the whole document - the Court of Appeal has already negated many reasons for an appeal, in its pre-trial ruling.

I think I've misunderstood the journalist. Here is (in part) what the judge decided, before the interlocutory appeal.

8 Under Ruling 3, I ruled on several different items of evidence obtained in consequence of, or following, admissions obtained improperly by reason of the oppressive conduct of police during the interview. Pursuant to s 138 of the Evidence Act, I excluded: (a) evidence of searches and the results thereof at a site near the Union Spur Track; (b) opinion evidence concerning testing of gunshot trajectory and the unlikelihood of Mr Lynn’s version given in the interview as to the accidental killing of Mrs Clay; and (c) evidence of the search of a campground at Kevington.[3] However, I did not exclude: (a) evidence of items found at the Bucks Camp campsite following the interview; (b) evidence of items found at that campsite before the interview but analysed (or successfully analysed upon reconsideration) only afterwards; or (c) evidence of the finding and analysis of blood and other matter belonging to Mrs Clay on the canopy of Mr Hill’s Toyota Landcruiser. In each of the latter instances, I was satisfied that, while the evidence was, to a greater or lesser degree, obtained in consequence of the improperly obtained admissions, the desirability of admitting the evidence outweighed the undesirability of admitting the evidence in the way it was obtained, whereas I was not so satisfied in the former cases.

R v Lynn (Rulings 1-4) [2024] VSC 373 (28 June 2024)

 

[ProfCluezo]

Take a bow JLZ. You’re the only person who has suggested this.
What you’ve said is making me rethink everything.

Sorry for not quite following, but I wonder if JudgeJudi or JLZ could elaborate a bit further….? TIA

 

[SouthAussie]

Could you please provide a link so that I may read and look at what you describe?

Here are a couple of links.

I can't remember where I read Lynn's description of the "struggle". Can't find it on a quick look. Not sure if he describes it in its entirety in the 2nd link below (video).

But Lynn said he had Russell pushed up against the bullbar at the front of Russell's vehicle, Russell's back was to the bullbar, Lynn was facing him. Lynn had two hands on the shotgun. One on the barrel, one on the stop.
(And the shotgun would have needed to be at the side of the vehicle to hit the mirror and go into Carol who was supposedly crouching by the rear tyre)
There was also a guy rope at the front of the vehicle, which would have got in the way of any struggle. Lynn "didn't see" that.

I don't believe Lynn's story. And neither do the police. Nor, apparently, did the jury.
It couldn't have happened that way.

Thread 8, post 461

Thread 8, post 921

 

[OwlHeart]

Sorry for not quite following, but I wonder if JudgeJudi or JLZ could elaborate a bit further….? TIA

I won’t speak for @JLZ but I will say that I myself have spotted things in GL’s interview that he says he did that I instinctively think refers to something RH actually did, and vice versa.

I’ll make a post with one example

 

[OwlHeart]

GREG LYNN: “Anyway, went back to my camp, had my dinner. And yes, I was annoyed. Didn't do anything about it.

But I did turn the stereo up and played some loud music, which is a bit of a childish thing to do …”

Excerpt from Can Noises Scare Deer Away From Your Yard? – Westchester Wildlife.

How to scare away deer:

“They will be afraid of loud, banging noises, yelling, or barking dogs. To keep deer from ravaging your property, try using auditory deterrents such as bells, whistles, radios, alarms, and ultrasonic devices to scare them away when you notice them.”

I think RH may have turned his radio on loud to scare away any deer from the camp.

If he had noticed GL hunting close to camp he might have reacted by deciding that if he scared away any nearby deer, then it would be safe for him & CC as GL would have nothing nearby to hunt.

I think it’s likely something like this occurred & set GL off. If he was used to hunting close to his camp over the years it may have really ticked him off as well as the idea that he was caught illegally hunting on RH’s drone footage.

Unfortunately I think ultimately RH & CC were themselves “hunted”, likely stalked in the dead of night.

IMO + I’ve not followed this case closely, but the interview GL gave to the police has stirred me to think on how things really played out. I think it was RH who played his radio loud, not GL but GL injected a partial truth into his story.

Because it’s got to be much easier than concocting an entire story from scratch!

 

[SouthAussie]

IIRC ProfCluezo noted that the sleeping bags of Carol Clay and Russell Hill were never found, and pondered the possibility of both victims being shot whilst in their sleeping bags, in their tent.

IMO that theory is very plausible. Given the points in your post, I'm starting to think it's highly probable.

I think it is unlikely that Carol's blood and other bodily matter would have been found under the ute's canopy, if she had been shot inside the tent while in her sleeping bag.

imo

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It was Greg Lynn who said he turned his radio up loud. To annoy Russell.

 

[OwlHeart]

It was Greg Lynn who said he turned his radio up loud. To annoy Russell.

Hi @TootsieFootsie , I think you’re responding to my comment?

I know GL said he turned his radio up, I’m just thinking how truth gets mixed with lies in these situations and how it could very well be that RH turned HIS radio on

I’m definitely offering MOO

 

[JLZ]

Sorry for not quite following, but I wonder if JudgeJudi or JLZ could elaborate a bit further….? TIA

I'm not sure I can. Not my day for thinking perhaps.

I don't believe in Russell going to GL's vehicle, taking one gun and not the other, loading it, letting off shots, doing the "I'm telling on you" bluster to justify taking GL's property. I could see GL doing most of this. And Russell flying his drone in national park area was against regulations. Maybe GL coveted the drone anyway. Maybe he crept up to steal it and when caught counter-attacked with stuff about "I'm taking it to police. You're going to get in trouble." Whether he took the drone or not (then), in some way he backed down in the face of Russell's anger. This humiliated him. He (GL) played loud music. It wasn't enough. After they'd gone to bed he came back with the shotgun, started shooting into the tent. Russell came out flaming and was quickly shot. Carol crept out while GL was distracted but he found her and shot her too.

Maybe Judge Judi has a more inspired version.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think GL hunted Carol down
After he'd done away with Russell.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I've been trying to establish whether or not Niels Becker was ever found, ie whether his body was found, or whether he turned up alive and well.
I haven't been able to find any definite information, although it appears that at one stage some people believed he was found safe and well. This has not been confirmed.

if anyone can fill in the gaps, please fill us in.

TIA

Missing men in the High Country
After Warren Meyer vanished on 24 October, 2008, 3 others went missing without a trace.

Conrad Whitlock, 72 y.o. 29 July, 2019 – strange disappearance
Niels Becker, 39 y.o. in – on or after 27 October 2019 – experienced hiker
David Prideaux, 50 y.o. 5 June, 2011 – LE say there was more of a motive for him to be murdered

Read about Kelvin Tennant who was shot 3 times on 18 February, 2017 but survived. It’s unknown whether he’s connected to the above disappearances.

 

[discostu]

IMO that is why everything was set on fire - that he would have considered that action the only option to adequately cover his tracks. If he used an accelerant such as petrol, the fire wouldn't fizzle out. IIRC GL had stated that the had used kerosene to start the fire.

JMO

I’m pretty sure the kerosene was used when he burned the bodies later. This article says he put the gas tank inside the tent to create a hot fire to burn the evidence at the site:

“He then cleaned the area, gathered the couple’s phones and cash, took Hill’s drone, placed their gas bottles inside the tent, slightly opened the valve to cause a hot fire rather than an explosion, and torched the evidence.”

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think he's quite proud of the job he did...

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sorry for not quite following, but I wonder if JudgeJudi or JLZ could elaborate a bit further….? TIA

JLZ said "I think perhaps it was GL who decided to steal/confiscate the drone. Then he reversed the story, failing to understand that it wouldn't be plausible because other people aren't like him."

In other words, rather than Russell stealing the gun, it was GL stealing the drone that started all that followed.
@JLZ, please correct me if I've misunderstood.