Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[Cliff Hardy]

Are you able to supply proof of what exact precise condition the passenger side rear vision mirror was in and the positioning of such when forensic and ballistic testing took place and what positioning the mirror was left in when GL departed the scene and when police first arrived on the scene and when they took their first forensic photos of the scene?

Lynn didn't burn that mirror to help fuel the fire. He burned it because it was evidence.

Everything points at Lynn having had to take a few shots at Carol Clay - who probably took off like a scared rabbit after seeing Lynn shoot Hill - and that one of those shots, not the one that actually killed her, broke the mirror.

What do they say about breaking a mirror? 7 years bad luck? In this case it is going to be a whole lot more.

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't dispute the inference, but I don't think that would be what was meant.

What do you think it meant, if not that?

 

[OwlHeart]

I know! Now first remember this is sarcasm on my part

What if not making eye contact is part of his custom or traditional beliefs, handed down from generations before ?

Congratulations @TootsieFootsie, for you have surely won the internet today!

 

[JLZ]

What do you think it meant, if not that?

Well, does it mean on the tent side?

 

[SouthAussie]

Well, does it mean on the tent side?

I found a more definitive answer.

In the UK the left side (from behind) is called the nearside of the vehicle. The right side (from behind) is called the offside.

Right/Left vs nearside and off side

Hi members - please can anyone help. I need to buy a rear light cover for the near side (nearest the kerb) of the caravan. However all the on-ine suppliers refer to right and left hand sides. I know this sounds stupid but is the near side the same as the right or left hand side? Thanks...

forums.practicalcaravan.com

 

[OwlHeart]

What do you think it meant, if not that?

Quick Google first thing seen:

the passenger side

“The nearside on a car is the side that's closest to the kerb. The nearside is often called the passenger side; so, the nearside front is the front passenger seat on a car.“

Hope this helps, I’m looking again in a moment

 

[OwlHeart]

Near side of a vehicle

 

[changintimes]

He said it was most unlikely, according to the interlocutory appeal judgement. BBM

A ballistics expert examined the respondent’s 12-gauge shot gun and found that the only manner in which it could be discharged was the normal method of applying pressure to the trigger. He also concluded through shot trajectory testing that the version given by the respondent in the record of interview as to how Mrs Clay was shot was most unlikely.

DPP v Lynn [2024] VSCA 62 (12 April 2024)

BUT when DD questioned the police expert witness (re trajectory testing) he admitted he had included false information in his own statement in that he had NOT used GL firearm during the test!; and that evidence was clearly after the date of the appeal judgement link you provided.

Shotgun alleged to have killed Carol Clay shown to jurors in Greg Lynn murder trial

Police ballistics specialist Paul Griffiths told the court he conducted tests to test the plausibility of Mr Lynn's account of events, but had not watched the police interview with the accused.

www.abc.net.au

 

[changintimes]

I know! Now first remember this is sarcasm on my part

What if not making eye contact is part of his custom or traditional beliefs, handed down from generations before ?

Very hard to make eye contact with persons sitting on the opposite side of a table, when you are drawing them diagrams of scene depictions and pointing to places on maps they have asked you about. Very difficult indeed. Actually impossible. IMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I wonder what the detectives thought of him not making eye contact.

 

[JLZ]

BUT when DD questioned the police expert witness (re trajectory testing) he admitted he had included false information in his own statement in that he had NOT used GL firearm during the test!; and that evidence was clearly after the date of the appeal judgement link you provided.

Shotgun alleged to have killed Carol Clay shown to jurors in Greg Lynn murder trial

Police ballistics specialist Paul Griffiths told the court he conducted tests to test the plausibility of Mr Lynn's account of events, but had not watched the police interview with the accused.

www.abc.net.au

View attachment 514335

Mr Dann would then need to present evidence as to how a different 12-gauge shotgun would make a difference to trajectory analysis. I can't see how it would either.

 

[sapphire blue]

Could be he found white too glaring in the extreme heat in Victoria.

‘Extreme heat in Victoria’ - that has to be sarcasm surely?

 

[sapphire blue]

I recall it was 2 or 3 years before April 2020 which is when he changed colour from blue to beige.

It was changed to beige after March 2020

It was changed to blue sometime between 2016 and 2019.

 

[sapphire blue]

BUT when DD questioned the police expert witness (re trajectory testing) he admitted he had included false information in his own statement in that he had NOT used GL firearm during the test!; and that evidence was clearly after the date of the appeal judgement link you provided.

Shotgun alleged to have killed Carol Clay shown to jurors in Greg Lynn murder trial

Police ballistics specialist Paul Griffiths told the court he conducted tests to test the plausibility of Mr Lynn's account of events, but had not watched the police interview with the accused.

www.abc.net.au

View attachment 514335

The trajectory testing was based on a ‘version of events given by Mr Lynn in his police interview’ - the testing focused on whether his account (see your post for the in brackets part) was plausible’

“It makes no impact what gun I used for that exercise. no impact whatsoever”

 

[changintimes]

In pieces.

Ash debris from the burnt campsite at Bucks Camp was found to contain pieces of glass and solar panel film from a vehicle side mirror. . . .

DPP v Lynn [2024] VSCA 62 (12 April 2024)

I cannot find any official information that solar panel film is used on rear vision mirrors of LandCruiser 70 series GXL vehicles. Are you able to locate any information? The ash debris at Bucks Camp wasn't picked up by police until some 8-months later by a Parks Victoria employee. Parks Victoria apparently had collected it in the first place. Absolutely shocking!

Timeline of events in Lynn trial

* 20 March, 2020: Russell Hill, 74, and Carol Clay, 73, die in Bucks Camp at Victoria’s Wonnangatta Valley. Greg [...]

berwick.starcommunity.com.au

* 15 October, 2020: On police request, Parks Victoria rangers collect the remaining fire debris from Bucks Camp and kept it stored in three bags.

* 6 January, 2021: The bags of debris gathered from Bucks Camp are forensically examined. Heavy glass, solar panels and clothing is among the items found.

The "pieces of glass" in the Austlii document may not even refer to rear mirror glass!

The proposition that Victoria Police would leave this crucial evidence out in the open for nearly seven months leaves me totally numb. Just shoved into three bags; with no forensic handling procedures. hmmmm makes me think those bits of rear vision mirror glass might not have been that small to begin with. It makes it a real possibility, even probability, that crucial evidence like the slug found at Bucks Camp could have been moved about by whoever was the person that was tasked with physically collected the debris.

Edited to remove incorrect information.

Were these three bags, in pristine, un-used condition when they were used to contain the burnt debris from Bucks Camp?

How was this debris left at the scene after RH vehicle was removed? What date was RH vehicle removed? What date was the vehicle returned to the address of RH?

 

[changintimes]

The trajectory testing was based on a ‘version of events given by Mr Lynn in his police interview’ - the testing focused on whether his account (see your post for the in brackets part) was plausible’

“It makes no impact what gun I used for that exercise. no impact whatsoever”

If a gun barrel is even the slightest measurement off, that would affect the trajectory. No rocket science involved there IMO.

It was based on a version of events given to the police expert who carried out the tests, by one of the detectives.

"The expert told the court he had not watched Greg Lynn's police interview before conducting his test using a different shotgun"
"Senior Constable Griffiths said the exercise was based on information he'd been given by the lead investigator on the case, and he admitted he did not watch Mr Lynn's police interview"

Shotgun alleged to have killed Carol Clay shown to jurors in Greg Lynn murder trial

Police ballistics specialist Paul Griffiths told the court he conducted tests to test the plausibility of Mr Lynn's account of events, but had not watched the police interview with the accused.

www.abc.net.au

hmmmm what was this lead investigator's opinion as to what GL had said during his police interview about the struggle with RH etc etc etc ? Did this lead investigator include any personal opinions?

What was the length of the barrel used by this police expert to do the trajectory tests? What was the make and model used?

 

[changintimes]

The defence unusually takes every opportunity to not only demonstrate reasonable doubt but also to show their client in the best possible light to the jury.

Dann could hardly be blamed for failing on both counts there as Lynn's story was just too far fetched and his history too checkered, to risk calling any witnesses.

There were no witnesses to be called, only the person that was at the scene and that person, put himself at great risk giving evidence. How a person behaved on another date, at any time, or at any place, is not relevant to the case IMO. Hearsay does not belong in any trial.

 

[JLZ]

I cannot find any official information that solar panel film is used on rear vision mirrors of LandCruiser 70 series GXL vehicles. Are you able to locate any information? The ash debris at Bucks Camp wasn't picked up by police until some 8-months later by a Parks Victoria employee. Parks Victoria apparently had collected it in the first place. Absolutely shocking!

Timeline of events in Lynn trial

* 20 March, 2020: Russell Hill, 74, and Carol Clay, 73, die in Bucks Camp at Victoria’s Wonnangatta Valley. Greg [...]

berwick.starcommunity.com.au

* 15 October, 2020: On police request, Parks Victoria rangers collect the remaining fire debris from Bucks Camp and kept it stored in three bags.

* 6 January, 2021: The bags of debris gathered from Bucks Camp are forensically examined. Heavy glass, solar panels and clothing is among the items found.

The "pieces of glass" in the Austlii document may not even refer to rear mirror glass!

The proposition that Victoria Police would leave this crucial evidence out in the open for nearly seven months leaves me totally numb. Just shoved into three bags; with no forensic handling procedures. hmmmm makes me think those bits of rear vision mirror glass might not have been that small to begin with. It makes it a real possibility, even probability, that crucial evidence like the slug found at Bucks Camp could have been moved about by whoever was the person that was tasked with physically collected the debris.

Edited to remove incorrect information.

Were these three bags, in pristine, un-used condition when they were used to contain the burnt debris from Bucks Camp?

How was this debris left at the scene after RH vehicle was removed? What date was RH vehicle removed? What date was the vehicle returned to the address of RH?

The evidence was not disputed by the defence and it was accepted by the appeal judges. That's enough for me. However, the site was attended by police from 28 March 2020 and forensically examined 1 April 2020. We don't know what was documented as being there. Why are you concerned about the mirror anyway? If the mirror wasn't struck by a bullet the trajectory becomes even less possible.

 

[JLZ]

There were no witnesses to be called, only the person that was at the scene and that person, put himself at great risk giving evidence. How a person behaved on another date, at any time, or at any place, is not relevant to the case IMO. Hearsay does not belong in any trial.

Character evidence is a thing. It's risky because if the defence plans to claim that the accused is of good character and hence unlikely to have committed the offence with which he's charged, the prosecution is allowed to call character evidence to the contrary. Arguably it's possible to dig up dirt on anyone. It would not be hearsay on either side. It would be testimony as to the witness's experience of the accused.

 

[Bats]

@changintimes
Can you tell me how many seats were in Russell's 4x 4?
Also, what was the lead investigator's name?
Finally, what was the date Clay and Hill arrived at Buck's camp?