Australia Australia - Tumbulgum, NSW, Male 50-70, Tweed River in sleeping bag, Nov'12

[Bohemian]

I have a question about forensics and autopsies. I don’t know enough about this subject tbh. One thing that I find confusing is in 2016 DCI Cullen says they couldn’t get a line on when or how the body in a bag died, but his best “guesstimate” is two to three weeks. They mention how badly decomposed the body was as well.

Now in the Gaby Petito case in the USA they have released her cause of death as strangulation, and estimate she died 3 to 4 weeks previous to being found.

How can they tell the way Gaby died after 3-4 weeks yet can’t establish anything in the body in a bag case here?

Is it a case of it being a decade ago, and forensics have advanced enough in that time? Is it a case of yes our police know a lot more then they’re letting on? Are there different procedures in different countries? Is it a case of Different climates make decomposition happen faster etc?

it just confuses me that the body in the bag was so badly decomposed they can’t tell a thing, and we’re told at best guess he was dead 2-3 weeks, yet They can tell Gaby was strangled, and even that she wasn’t pregnant after 3-4 weeks of decomposition.

There are many variables when it comes to the rate of decomposition of human remains, such as temperature, humidity, if the remains are buried, left exposed to the elements and scavengers (and types of scavengers) such as insects, etc, or disposed of in water.

Decomposition – The Forensics Library

(Not being overly familiar with the circumstances of Gaby’s case, my guess that the reason it was possible to identify that she had been strangled was that her remains were preserved by being exposed to the arid, desert conditions in which she was found, whereas our Tumbulgum Man was found in a more humid, tropical environment making an autopsy more problematic).

 

[Bohemian]

Also, Gaby may have had a hyoid fracture in her neck, which can be evidence of strangulation:

The Four Types of Strangulation - Crimes Lab

 

[T-dawg420]

There are many variables when it comes to the rate of decomposition of human remains, such as temperature, humidity, if the remains are buried, left exposed to the elements and scavengers (and types of scavengers) such as insects, etc, or disposed of in water.

Decomposition – The Forensics Library

(Not being overly familiar with the circumstances of Gaby’s case, my guess that the reason it was possible to identify that she had been strangled was that her remains were preserved by being exposed to the arid, desert conditions in which she was found, whereas our Tumbulgum Man was found in a more humid, tropical environment making an autopsy more problematic).

That makes sense, thank you so much!

 

[T-dawg420]

Also, Gaby may have had a hyoid fracture in her neck, which can be evidence of strangulation:

The Four Types of Strangulation - Crimes Lab

That’s intense, thanks again for the help and clarification.

 

[T-dawg420]

Did anyone ever mention a body being pulled from the river not far from the body in a bag 1 week before the body in the bag was found?

Mark Napieracz was found drowned in the river approx 400 m upstream from the bridge at tumbulgum.

That’s 2 body’s pulled from almost the same part of thr river inside a week and the police say it’s not suspicious?

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

Second body found at Tumbulgum

 

[T-dawg420]

It states the body in a bag was found at the intersection of Dulguigan Rd and Mcauleys rd. And it states Mark Napieracz body was located 400 meters upriver from the bridge. Now the intersection of Dulguigan and Mcauleys roads is approx 290m up river. That leaves about a football field in between!

 

[HinterlandObserver]

Did anyone ever mention a body being pulled from the river not far from the body in a bag 1 week before the body in the bag was found?

Mark Napieracz was found drowned in the river approx 400 m upstream from the bridge at tumbulgum.

That’s 2 body’s pulled from almost the same part of thr river inside a week and the police say it’s not suspicious?

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

Second body found at Tumbulgum

Wow. I didn’t ever hear of that, I guess because they wrote it off as an accident. with the frequency of bodies turning up there I’m disinclined to accept that assumption. Seems wrapped in a neat little bow, a “fishing accident”. Could be entirely coincidental but geeeez.

 

[T-dawg420]

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

Here’s a news story with an actual video of the police holding up the bag the body was found it. Gives a good visual of the bag, esp the back of the bag. And it was windy outside when they decided to show it.

 

[T-dawg420]

I could only put 10 pics up at a time, so here are the last 5 I have

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I could only put 10 pics up at a time, so here are the last 5 I have

I’m guessing they tore it open to remove him from the bag, unless it was discarded because of the tear and used to wrap him as an available scrap of fabric.
Observing “the bag”, it is almost similar in design to a pillow case, where one end is open. It seems to have side panels.
There seems to be a maybe hand sized diamond shaped imprint in the fabric at the open end in media pictures. The footage shows it a lot more weathered than photos.

 

[T-dawg420]

I’m guessing they tore it open to remove him from the bag, unless it was discarded because of the tear and used to wrap him as an available scrap of fabric.
Observing “the bag”, it is almost similar in design to a pillow case, where one end is open. It seems to have side panels.
There seems to be a maybe hand sized diamond shaped imprint in the fabric at the open end in media pictures. The footage shows it a lot more weathered than photos.

I agree that it does look more weathered in this footage then say when they put the pic up of the undies and the other bag inside as a well. Why do you think that is?

And is that what you mean by a diamond shaped imprint?

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I agree that it does look more weathered in this footage then say when they put the pic up of the undies and the other bag inside as a well. Why do you think that is?

And is that what you mean by a diamond shaped imprint?

Yeah that’s it! I’ve been trying to think what is that size/shape that is weighted.

 

[ZaZara]

Reconstruction

It has been over a year since this reconstruction was released.

I tried looking for updates but all I can find are reports about more floods in the area. Nothing about this man.

Any news I may have missed?

 

[HinterlandObserver]

It has been over a year since this reconstruction was released.

I tried looking for updates but all I can find are reports about more floods in the area. Nothing about this man.

View attachment 375268

Any news I may have missed?

Nothing new as far as I’m aware. I would really like to know if Julian Goldings DNA was checked against his though.

 

[ZaZara]

Nothing new as far as I’m aware. I would really like to know if Julian Goldings DNA was checked against his though.

I know very little about how the system works in Australia. Wouldn't DNA be in a database and checked regularly / automatically? Meaning if the DNA of a missing person is in the database, and the DNA of an unidentified person too, then the check would be made automatically. And non-matches are not reported, only if and when there is a match.

IMO if it works like this in Australia, then Julian Golding is not Tumbulgum Man, even more so because JG apparently disappeared in 2010, two years before TM was found, and TM had only been deceased a few weeks before. How would Julian Golding have survived from 2010 to 2012 without contact with anyone in the region? And where did he get that last drink that led to alcohol found in his blood? Very unlikely IMO that JG and TM are the same person.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I know very little about how the system works in Australia. Wouldn't DNA be in a database and checked regularly / automatically? Meaning if the DNA of a missing person is in the database, and the DNA of an unidentified person too, then the check would be made automatically. And non-matches are not reported, only if and when there is a match.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's not a routine thing here.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I know very little about how the system works in Australia. Wouldn't DNA be in a database and checked regularly / automatically? Meaning if the DNA of a missing person is in the database, and the DNA of an unidentified person too, then the check would be made automatically. And non-matches are not reported, only if and when there is a match.

IMO if it works like this in Australia, then Julian Golding is not Tumbulgum Man, even more so because JG apparently disappeared in 2010, two years before TM was found, and TM had only been deceased a few weeks before. How would Julian Golding have survived from 2010 to 2012 without contact with anyone in the region? And where did he get that last drink that led to alcohol found in his blood? Very unlikely IMO that JG and TM are the same person.

Sadly there’s over 600 unidentified remains still waiting on processing here in Australia. I would have assumed there should be a system like that but I’m guessing it’s state to state (that’s why there’s still so many backlogged?)
I know it’s far fetched but not unheard of that people get kidnapped for any reason?
I’ve researched a bit about him and he was heavily involved in sailing.. there’s another Golding (I think Simon) who got done smuggling drugs in a sail boat a few years ago.
There was also another Golding who went missing off a sailboat in Tasmania.
I just wonder if there could be a bigger picture.
I also could totally be clutching at straws.

 

[Melt71]

There is currently a national program underway which uses traditional direct-match DNA but can also use genetic genealogy. It only started in 2020. One of the offshoots is to get familial DNA from the next of kin of all long term missing persons in Australia, for comparison to UIDs.

Different states are at different places in implementation and a couple of states already had their own programs that run alongside this one.

Australia’s privacy laws are very strict. Also LE do not routinely issue updates on investigations unless there is a specific expected benefit expected from doing so. The types of case updates we see from the US would rarely, if ever, be seen in Australia.

National DNA Program for Unidentified and Missing Persons

In July 2020, the Australian Federal Police’s (AFP) National Missing Persons Coordination Centre (NMPCC) launched the National DNA Program for Unidentified and Missing Persons. The aim of this multidisciplinary Program is to apply contemporary forensic techniques to current unidentified human...

www.missingpersons.gov.au

 

[T-dawg420]

Sadly there’s over 600 unidentified remains still waiting on processing here in Australia. I would have assumed there should be a system like that but I’m guessing it’s state to state (that’s why there’s still so many backlogged?)
I know it’s far fetched but not unheard of that people get kidnapped for any reason?
I’ve researched a bit about him and he was heavily involved in sailing.. there’s another Golding (I think Simon) who got done smuggling drugs in a sail boat a few years ago.
There was also another Golding who went missing off a sailboat in Tasmania.
I just wonder if there could be a bigger picture.
I also could totally be clutching at straws.

you’re right about the Golding name being involved in a few missing persons cases and other things.

all three Goldings you mentioned were heavily involved in sailing and water activities. There was obviously Julian Golding, Then there was Laura Golding as you said went missing off a boat in Tasmania. A coroner has ruled her deceased but her body has never been found. Laura was a transgender person who was born a man. I only say that cos the Simon Golding you mentioned did have a brother. I could never link any of them conclusively unfortunately.

Simon Golding was arrested in 2010 for what was at the time the biggest drug smuggling attempt into Australia. Simon and 2 other men were found guilty of trying to import 400kgs of cocaine onto Australian shores.

Simon was also apart of a two man sailing journey to South America in 2007 when his co sailor Andrew Witton mysteriously was lost overboard and was never found.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/im-no-angel-but-im-not-a-murderer-drug-smuggler-denies-pushing-mate-overboard/news-story/d355441521a1d3009bbc027092059e5b

Family of yachtsman missing for 9 years wants case reopened

The sister of missing Australian sailor Andrew Witton, who vanished from the deck of his yacht in a remote part of the Pacific Ocean in 2007, believes there is sufficient new information for his case to be reconsidered by the Commonwealth DPP.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Melt71]

An update on the Australian program which was announced in 2020 - an audit identified 850 sets of unidentified remains. The DNA testing of remains commenced in early 2022.

As I noted in a couple of posts above, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) are concurrently trying to get DNA from family members of long term missing persons. The press release notes that, in testing family members "It is particularly important for the Program to be informed of individuals who went missing decades ago, including disappearances that were never formally reported to police."

AFP DNA program to help identify unknown and missing Australians

The AFP has started testing unidentified human remains using cutting-edge technology to help solve some of Australia’s most enduring missing persons’ cases. Unidentified bone and teeth fragments – held in police and forensic facilities across the country – are being sent to the AFP’s dedicated...

www.missingpersons.gov.au