Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[imstilla.grandma]

The sisters moved to Australia from Saudi Arabia in 2017 and may have sought asylum, The Sydney Morning Herald reported. Police refused to confirm this, saying they do not comment on residential status.

A human rights organisation said it should be established whether the women fled Saudi Arabia because of domestic violence or harsh laws governing women. However, there is no evidence this is the case.

Lina al-Hathloul, head of monitoring and communications at Saudi human rights organisation ALQST, said it "would not be the first case" of Saudi women who were killed abroad after fleeing domestic violence.

"There are no protections for women who are victims of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia, so they flee abroad," she told the BBC.
She added: "I'm not saying that is the case here, just that we need a thorough investigation. It is frustrating not to have any information."

A report from Australian current affairs programme Four Corners in 2019 found 80 Saudi women had tried to seek asylum in Australia in recent years. Many of them were fleeing male guardianship laws.

Saudi women in Sydney: Sisters' bodies lay undiscovered for a month

The sisters' bodies lay undiscovered for a month, and seven weeks later, police do not know the cause.

www.bbc.com

*Okay, I the phrase “male guardianship” threw me off so bad, I had to go to my friend Google. surely, there was a mistake or a typo a, but no- it’s a real thing. The phrase is so foreign to me, I can’t believe it really exists. This is an old article but it is really telling. The system is infuriating:

In Saudi Arabia, a woman’s life is controlled by a man from birth until death. Every Saudi woman must have a male guardian, normally a father or husband, but in some cases a brother or even a son, who has the power to make a range of critical decisions on her behalf.

As dozens of Saudi women told Human Rights Watch, the male guardianship system is the most significant impediment to realizing women’s rights in the country, effectively rendering adult women legal minors who cannot make key decisions for themselves.

Every Saudi woman, regardless of her economic or social class, is adversely affected by guardianship policies.

Adult women must obtain permission from a male guardian to travel, marry, or exit prison. They may be required to provide guardian consent in order to work or access healthcare. Women regularly face difficulty conducting a range of transactions without a male relative, from renting an apartment to filing legal claims.

Boxed In

This report examines in detail the panoply of formal and informal barriers women in Saudi Arabia face when attempting to make decisions or take action without the presence or consent of a male relative. As one 25-year-old Saudi woman told Human Rights Watch, “We all have to live in the borders...

www.hrw.org

 

[Dotta]

The girls no-one knew

The Saudi Arabian sisters hiding in a humble western Sydney apartment

Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, were badly decomposed when police found them in separate rooms of their Canterbury apartment during a welfare check on June 7.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Dotta]

I guess the man with restraining order knows something about the sisters.

 

[branmuffin]

Oh this place has everything, had pictured a sad little gas station, but now i understand the frequent visits the sisters apparently made there.
Were they studying or having to stay up late for something that ''necessitated'' buying energy drinks, otherwise if they were just hiding /hanging out at the apartment, why the need? imo, speculation.

https://www.pricelisto.com/menu-prices/wild-bean-cafe-au

When I look at the menu of the Wild Bean Cafe it screams haram to me. It seems bacon and sausage are the top most items in their sandwiches and pies. Except for desserts and coffee and smoothies it's slim pickin's in WBC if you are an observant Muslim.

In that area there a tons of halal restaurants and take out places they could have gone to for food. There is a guide online in Australia called Hungry for Halal and lo and behold it does mention WBC. They don't actually commit 100% to everything being halal but probably enough for some observant Muslim to feel comfortable going there for food and beverages. So it begs the question why would they go to a place that most food items are haram? It's not as if there is a desert of halal restaurants and grocery stores. The closest WBC to the sisters' apartment is at 322 Canterbury St, so not very far away. Online they say they deliver using Uber Eats.

A picture has been painted of them being hermits staying at home, never venturing out except to buy gas and beverages. If they were staying home all the time, why did they need to keep filling up their vehicle?

 

[Dotta]

If they were staying home all the time, why did they need to keep filling up their vehicle?

Also what exactly is this sole trader business??

Can a person who is not a legal citizen even open and conduct business?

Well, it seems they were convinced somebody wished them harm (talking about tampering with food).

 

[branmuffin]

Also what exactly is this sole trader business??

Can a person who is not a legal citizen even open and conduct business?

Well, I can only use my experience here in Canada regarding landed immigrants opening businesses. Like many minorities, they have a network of people to help them acclimatize to a new culture and provide a support network for them. In Ontario, there is a high ratio of gas stations owned by Indians, many of them Sikh. Punjabis dominate the trucking business in Canada, again because the network provides financial aid in getting them on their feet. I don't find it unusual at all that immigrants, either landed status or citizens, create their own success stories.

I can relate a story that I knew first hand regarding an Italian family who came to Canada in the late 1960s. They never used credit cards; anything they bought they paid for in cash. If they had no cash they didn't buy it. They all moved into an apartment that was probably only meant for 4 people, except there was 6 of them. The parents and older boys had their own bedrooms because they all worked and needed to be able to get a sound sleep. The parents worked nights in office buildings as cleaners because they couldn't speak English. The boys worked in restaurant kitchens and did physical labour. The first thing they did with their savings was to build a house for their parents. They moved into the house and then they saved enough money to build a house for the adult sons, too. Ten years later everyone one of them owned their own homes outright and had their own businesses. I find a lot of immigrants are very focused on the life altering decision of moving to a new country and the opportunities it presents and are willing to sacrifice for it.

 

[Dotta]

Well, I can only use my experience here in Canada regarding landed immigrants opening businesses. Like many minorities, they have a network of people to help them acclimatize to a new culture and provide a support network for them. In Ontario, there is a high ratio of gas stations owned by Indians, many of them Sikh. Punjabis dominate the trucking business in Canada, again because the network provides financial aid in getting them on their feet. I don't find it unusual at all that immigrants, either landed status or citizens, create their own success stories.

I can relate a story that I knew first hand regarding an Italian family who came to Canada in the late 1960s. They never used credit cards; anything they bought they paid for in cash. If they had no cash they didn't buy it. They all moved into an apartment that was probably only meant for 4 people, except there was 6 of them. The parents and older boys had their own bedrooms because they all worked and needed to be able to get a sound sleep. The parents worked nights in office buildings as cleaners because they couldn't speak English. The boys worked in restaurant kitchens and did physical labour. The first thing they did with their savings was to build a house for their parents. They moved into the house and then they saved enough money to build a house for the adult sons, too. Ten years later everyone one of them owned their own homes outright and had their own businesses. I find a lot of immigrants are very focused on the life altering decision of moving to a new country and the opportunities it presents and are willing to sacrifice for it.

I see.
In my country, establishing even 1 person business is a long process involving paperwork and presenting relevant documents.
One has to pay medical insurance, taxes, money for future pension fund, etc.

Immigrants wait for their status to be resolved.

Those with permit to stay can legally work.

 

[dotr]

When I look at the menu of the Wild Bean Cafe it screams haram to me. It seems bacon and sausage are the top most items in their sandwiches and pies. Except for desserts and coffee and smoothies it's slim pickin's in WBC if you are an observant Muslim.

In that area there a tons of halal restaurants and take out places they could have gone to for food. There is a guide online in Australia called Hungry for Halal and lo and behold it does mention WBC. They don't actually commit 100% to everything being halal but probably enough for some observant Muslim to feel comfortable going there for food and beverages. So it begs the question why would they go to a place that most food items are haram? It's not as if there is a desert of halal restaurants and grocery stores. The closest WBC to the sisters' apartment is at 322 Canterbury St, so not very far away. Online they say they deliver using Uber Eats.

A picture has been painted of them being hermits staying at home, never venturing out except to buy gas and beverages. If they were staying home all the time, why did they need to keep filling up their vehicle?

Very interesting, great points @branmuffin!

Ramadan 2022 in Australia – A Detailed Insight into Ramadan Timetable, Traditions & Useful Tips

Spend Ramadan 2022 in Australia with loads of goodship and joys, and find means to please Allah Almighty! Muslims around

theaustraliatime.com

''Ramadan 2022 in Australia will start on the 2nd of April.
The month of April in Australia relishes the spring season, which depicts the pleasantness of temperature in the atmosphere. Such a time is quite suitable for fasting because of the absence of scorching heat. It eventually decreases the demand for drinking water from time to time.

Additionally, Ramadan lasts for nearly 29 to 30 days, and therefore the same weather will be present throughout this time. However, slight changes in Sehri and Iftar time in Australia will keep on happening on daily basis. The difference is usually 1 to 2 minutes''.

here are certain rules that every Muslim around the world, including Australia, should follow.

• Fasting requires complete abstain from drinking as well as eating. Muslims should not intake any kind of food or even any beverage before the set time of Iftaar. Moreover, one should consult the Islamic experts in order to determine the exceptions.
• There are some ethical values as well that are a must. For instance, Muslims must avoid fighting or abusing. Being disrespectful is a big no-no for a Muslim who is fasting.
• Both men and women should fast once they become adults. However, there are some constraints as well, like pregnant women or ill people should avoid fasting. We suggest again to look up to an Islamic scholar for more details.
• Brushing your teeth will not affect your Holy fast until you swallow.
• Medications under certain circumstances are allowed during fasting, however, the opinion of an Islamic expert is highly required.
• Muslims should strictly follow the Iftar and Sehri timetable depending on the region they are residing in, like Adelaide.

 

[evilwise]

Perhaps the sisters had little to no money of their own and were forced to rely on food deliveries ordered and paid for online by some family member in Saudia Arabia who they were also increasingly very afraid of and believed that he could be ordering them to be poisoned so they were relying on only the limited items that were halal and inexpensive and within walking distance. We haven't heard the word "emaciated" though from either locals who saw them or the authorities who discovered their bodies.

 

[Dotta]

Update

"Mystery deepens in case of the inseparable sisters found dead in suspicious circumstances as it's revealed they were daughters of a 'well-connected' Saudi family - and they STILL haven't been buried.

Upon arrival in Australia, they contacted a refugee agency and lived under the radar on bridging visas for five years.

Both women registered ABNs in 2018 for sole trading to a Wetherill Park address, in Sydney's West, but police still can't confirm what they did for work."

Saudi Arabian sisters found dead daughters of 'well-connected' family

Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, were found dead in their first-floor unit in Canterbury on June 7. It is understood they came from a 'well-connected' Saudi Arabian family.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Via Marple]

Also what exactly is this sole trader business??

Can a person who is not a legal citizen even open and conduct business?

Well, it seems they were convinced somebody wished them harm (talking about tampering with food).

Yes. According to many sources including the Australian Tax Office, non-residents like backpackers can get an ABN.Australian business number (ABN) for non-residents

In my experience it is very common for businesses to ask people they hire for an ABN, so that they become 'contractors' not staff, and that will benefit the businesses.

 

[Kemug]

Not that it solves anything, but perhaps the sisters became addicted to energy drinks? I have personally known someone who became addicted to CocaCola.

 

[Dotta]

Not that it solves anything, but perhaps the sisters became addicted to energy drinks? I have personally known someone who became addicted to CocaCola.

" Energy drinks can become very addictive, especially for children. Due to a high sugar intake, teens are more prone to latch on the addictive trait which could potentially become a gateway for other substances.

There are both positive and negatives when gulping an energy drink.
Although, it’s up to on how you choose to drink.
If you are a casual consumer, then these health effects shouldn’t be much of an issue.

However, if you choose to abuse the consumption of energy drinks, then it could spell danger."

The Pros and Cons of Energy Drinks

While you’re indulging in your cold energy drink, do you really know the contents that are going into your body? Do you believe that the only thing energy drinks do is give you a boost in energy? According to Statista “about 47 percent of respondents indicated to consume energy drinks several...

n-o-v-a.com

 

[Charlot123]

Yes. According to many sources including the Australian Tax Office, non-residents like backpackers can get an ABN.Australian business number (ABN) for non-residents

In my experience it is very common for businesses to ask people they hire for an ABN, so that they become 'contractors' not staff, and that will benefit the businesses.

A very reasonable approach given the decrease of the workforce for hire, world-wise.

 

[ElGato]

Detective Allcroft said there was a welfare check in March because food they had delivered remained in the common area. Does that mean they were suspicious of someone delivering food? Australia has many food delivery services, Menulog and Deliveroo being the most popular. Did they have some reluctance to have a delivery person come to their apartment or even see them coming down to pick up the food? Is that extreme paranoia or a legitimate worry that a prior delivery person made them very uncomfortable? Was it the old boyfriend who had the AVO taken out against him or someone else they knew from their old life? Has LE checked their history of ordering food, what restaurants and shops and when was the last time they ordered food? Is there any other documentation of them going out to buy groceries?

They were obviously still alive after that initial welfare check because they were still going to the gas station picking up iced coffee and energy drinks. They were also still alive after the subsequent welfare check. I wonder what they were eating? It sounds like they were living on energy drinks and coffee, both which have enormous amounts of caffeine and sugar in them. I can see one person having an extreme negative reaction to high amounts of caffeine and sugar but two? That's a bit of a stretch in my opinion, although I am not discounting it could happen.

I think the 'food left in the common area' means food left outside their door, in the hallway. That would certainly trigger a welfare check, if they left it there for a few days.

IMO, there would have to be special instructions with the food order, to get someone to leave it outside. Delivery people want to ensure the order gets to the right person, plus they're hoping for a tip. I think it'd be easy to check who paid for the food, as well as the rent.

ETA: it appears they paid their own rent, since it was overdue rent that trigger the June welfare check.

Just my opinion, but I think this is more likely to be mental illness - exacerbated by Covid - than foul play.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

Delivery people want to ensure the order gets to the right person, plus they're hoping for a tip.

In covid times it was normal to leave the parcel in front of the front door.

Non-contact delivery.

 

[Charlot123]

I think the 'food left in the common area' means food left outside their door, in the hallway. That would certainly trigger a welfare check, if they left it there for a few days.

IMO, there would have to be special instructions with the food order, to get someone to leave it outside. Delivery people want to ensure the order gets to the right person, plus they're hoping for a tip. I think it'd be easy to check who paid for the food, as well as the rent.

ETA: it appears they paid their own rent, since it was overdue rent that trigger the June welfare check.

Just my opinion, but I think this is more likely to be mental illness - exacerbated by Covid - than foul play.

JMO

It would seem like it to me, and the more I look at them, the more I feel that only one could be truly ill, but shared life triggered shared psychotic disorder.

However, you mentioned COVID. Obvious questions: were they vaccinated? Could it be COVID per se? Covid was seemingly mild, during this spring, but could trigger fever, unpleasant side effects, clots. And how much of COVID could be noticed 1 Mo later, postmortem?

 

[branmuffin]

Here's a pretty concise explanation of the different types of bridging visas. As the article suggests, bridging visas aren't an outcome but part of the process applying for legal status in Australia. They have a hierarchal structure with different requirements and conditions, some allowing the subject to work and others that don't allow working.

Australia's bridging visas explained

In March 2021, the number of Bridging visa holders in Australia mounted to a historic high of over 350,000. But what are bridging visas, and what rights and conditions do they come with?

www.sbs.com.au

Is it possible that the sisters' visas expired and they thought they were going to be expelled? They'd worked with immigration groups so you'd think they would have been familiar with the process. I wonder if they set up those business accounts only to find out the bridging visas they attained were ones that did not allow permission to work? If that was the case how were they supporting themselves.

 

[branmuffin]

I think the 'food left in the common area' means food left outside their door, in the hallway. That would certainly trigger a welfare check, if they left it there for a few days.

IMO, there would have to be special instructions with the food order, to get someone to leave it outside. Delivery people want to ensure the order gets to the right person, plus they're hoping for a tip. I think it'd be easy to check who paid for the food, as well as the rent.

ETA: it appears they paid their own rent, since it was overdue rent that trigger the June welfare check.

Just my opinion, but I think this is more likely to be mental illness - exacerbated by Covid - than foul play.

JMO

According to subsequent posts after my query, the common area referred to an outdoor area.

 

[chimpface]

Moved in 2017? This is absolutely shocking