Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[bfew]

fixed line internet (NBN?)

The NBN address checker says that 308-320 Canterbury Road is a building connected to the NBN with Fibre to the Premises (FTTP).

Whether residents can order directly from an NBN service provider like Telstra or Optus, or whether building occupants are forced to get their NBN Service in the building via a middle man company, I'm not sure of, or if this type of thing is even allowed in Australia or NSW with NBN Services.

(NBN is a 100% Australian Federal Government owned Business that wholesales various internet technologies to residential and business customers via non-government internet service providers)

 

[Arboreal]

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) has just posted a long story on Asra and Amaal Alsehli: "What happened in apartment 115?" Accompanying this is a radio documentary, part of the ABC's Background Briefing program: "What happened to the Saudi sisters? - Full Ep"
For people not familiar with Australia's media environment: The ABC is highly reputable and has very strict journalistic standards (Yes, they occasionally fail; but so do we all). But the ABC is considered the leading, if not the leading, source of reputable reporting. The ABC is funded by the Australian taxpayer. The ABC is it not a state broadcaster but a public broadcaster, with legislated duties of independence and being apolitical. The ABC tends to annoy just about everyone, across the political spectrum and particularly governments. As a result, the ABC is much loved. All that for background.

Some new information:

• Asra Alsehli, 24, and her sister Amaal, 23, moved into apartment 115 in November last year (i.e. 2021)
• A source with detailed knowledge of the sisters’ situation says they were scared of a male relative, and were afraid he’d come over, or send someone to get them.
• Another source, associated with their legal service, said the women believed there was a private investigator following them.
• their BMW was "keyed" - scratched with a key - in early 2022.
• late January, 2022: the sisters sent the building manager, Michael, an email asking him to check the building’s CCTV cameras, as they feared their food delivery had been tampered with. When he checked the cameras, Michael found nothing.
• Michael said, "The girls were very, very scared. Very afraid of something. And we’re not sure what it was — something, someone … they didn’t tell us”.
• In late March 2022, a plumber was called to the apartment to assess a water leak. As soon as he finished his work, he phoned Michael. The plumber said the sisters stayed in the corner of their front room the whole 10 minutes he was there and didn’t say a word. “[The plumber] was concerned that there was something untoward happening in the apartment,” says Michael. “He goes, ‘I don’t know. Something definitely wrong with that apartment. Something definitely happening in that place is not good’.” ″‘The girls look scared for some reason. I don’t want to go back.’”
• Michael called the police asking them to conduct a welfare check on the two women. But they wouldn’t unlock the door, he says. “Eventually the door was opened and the police stood at the door, asking the girls a series of questions. They said they were OK. They didn’t want any police involvement. And the police left it at that.”
• Still concerned, Michael went to the apartment with his day manager under the guise of looking for a leak. And what he saw has stuck with him ever since. “I went into the unit, I saw these two little girls stuck in the corner, like two little sparrows,” he says. “Really, I was looking to make sure there was nobody in the unit as well that was … causing them to be afraid or timid.
• The ABC reporters approached a group of tradesmen standing at the door of the apartment block. Among them, a worker, who knew the building well. He reveals he’d been inside the apartment once the bodies were removed and proceeds to describe what he saw. One detail struck him as a bit odd. Two crucifix necklaces were lying on the floor of one of the bedrooms.
• This worker, also volunteers another piece of information: in the weeks before the sisters’ death, he saw a stranger in the lobby — on two separate occasions. The worker describes the man as having a Middle Eastern appearance, and says he approached him to ask which apartment he was from. “115, he said”. The apartment where the sisters were supposedly living alone.
• The sisters had a very scarce presence online.
• The ABC found that both sisters had ABNs, and that led the ABC to an address in Smithfield, in Western Sydney. On Google Street View, a snapshot from November 2019 reveals a black BMW parked in the driveway. The car is the same make and model as the BMW they were driving while they lived in their Canterbury unit.
• At the Smithfield address, the ABC met a Syrian family, with the daughter, Rita, acting as translator for her parents. They confirm the sisters lived in a granny flat beneath their house for around 18 months.
• A group helping asylum seekers, "Asylum Seeker Resource Centre". This centre received funding from the Australian government under a program called "Status Resolution Support Services, or SRSS". From 2018, the Federal government slashed funding for the program, from $140m in 2017-2018 to $33 million in 2021-2022. The government that did that was removed in Australia's federal election in May, 2022. [Arboreal note: There is no clear indication that the Alsehli sisters used this program or that the slashing on funding contributed to their deaths by removing a source of income. Nor is it clear from this ABC story when the sisters applied for asylum; but the Guardian, cited in previous posts, said the sisters' application was still current and under consideration.]

 

[dotr]

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) has just posted a long story on Asra and Amaal Alsehli: "What happened in apartment 115?" Accompanying this is a radio documentary, part of the ABC's Background Briefing program: "What happened to the Saudi sisters? - Full Ep"
For people not familiar with Australia's media environment: The ABC is highly reputable and has very strict journalistic standards (Yes, they occasionally fail; but so do we all). But the ABC is considered the leading, if not the leading, source of reputable reporting. The ABC is funded by the Australian taxpayer. The ABC is it not a state broadcaster but a public broadcaster, with legislated duties of independence and being apolitical. The ABC tends to annoy just about everyone, across the political spectrum and particularly governments. As a result, the ABC is much loved. All that for background.

Some new information:

• Asra Alsehli, 24, and her sister Amaal, 23, moved into apartment 115 in November last year (i.e. 2021)
• A source with detailed knowledge of the sisters’ situation says they were scared of a male relative, and were afraid he’d come over, or send someone to get them.
• Another source, associated with their legal service, said the women believed there was a private investigator following them.
• their BMW was "keyed" - scratched with a key - in early 2022.
• late January, 2022: the sisters sent the building manager, Michael, an email asking him to check the building’s CCTV cameras, as they feared their food delivery had been tampered with. When he checked the cameras, Michael found nothing.
• Michael said, "The girls were very, very scared. Very afraid of something. And we’re not sure what it was — something, someone … they didn’t tell us”.
• In late March 2022, a plumber was called to the apartment to assess a water leak. As soon as he finished his work, he phoned Michael. The plumber said the sisters stayed in the corner of their front room the whole 10 minutes he was there and didn’t say a word. “[The plumber] was concerned that there was something untoward happening in the apartment,” says Michael. “He goes, ‘I don’t know. Something definitely wrong with that apartment. Something definitely happening in that place is not good’.” ″‘The girls look scared for some reason. I don’t want to go back.’”
• Michael called the police asking them to conduct a welfare check on the two women. But they wouldn’t unlock the door, he says. “Eventually the door was opened and the police stood at the door, asking the girls a series of questions. They said they were OK. They didn’t want any police involvement. And the police left it at that.”
• Still concerned, Michael went to the apartment with his day manager under the guise of looking for a leak. And what he saw has stuck with him ever since. “I went into the unit, I saw these two little girls stuck in the corner, like two little sparrows,” he says. “Really, I was looking to make sure there was nobody in the unit as well that was … causing them to be afraid or timid.
• The ABC reporters approached a group of tradesmen standing at the door of the apartment block. Among them, a worker, who knew the building well. He reveals he’d been inside the apartment once the bodies were removed and proceeds to describe what he saw. One detail struck him as a bit odd. Two crucifix necklaces were lying on the floor of one of the bedrooms.
• This worker, also volunteers another piece of information: in the weeks before the sisters’ death, he saw a stranger in the lobby — on two separate occasions. The worker describes the man as having a Middle Eastern appearance, and says he approached him to ask which apartment he was from. “115, he said”. The apartment where the sisters were supposedly living alone.
• The sisters had a very scarce presence online.
• The ABC found that both sisters had ABNs, and that led the ABC to an address in Smithfield, in Western Sydney. On Google Street View, a snapshot from November 2019 reveals a black BMW parked in the driveway. The car is the same make and model as the BMW they were driving while they lived in their Canterbury unit.
• At the Smithfield address, the ABC met a Syrian family, with the daughter, Rita, acting as translator for her parents. They confirm the sisters lived in a granny flat beneath their house for around 18 months.
• A group helping asylum seekers, "Asylum Seeker Resource Centre". This centre received funding from the Australian government under a program called "Status Resolution Support Services, or SRSS". From 2018, the Federal government slashed funding for the program, from $140m in 2017-2018 to $33 million in 2021-2022. The government that did that was removed in Australia's federal election in May, 2022. [Arboreal note: There is no clear indication that the Alsehli sisters used this program or that the slashing on funding contributed to their deaths by removing a source of income. Nor is it clear from this ABC story when the sisters applied for asylum; but the Guardian, cited in previous posts, said the sisters' application was still current and under consideration.]

Thank you for that excellent but spine-chilling summary!

 

[Arboreal]

I'm a bit dim today and should have picked up on this earlier. From the ABC site, the person Background Briefing interviewed, Rita, said the Alsehlis lived in a granny flay underneath the house she and her parents occupy for about 18 months.
The Alsehli sisters arrived in 2017. I have not seen a month given.
According to the ABC report, the Alsehli sisters moved to the Canterbury Rd unit (where they were found dead) in November, 2021. So, assuming the sisters moved from the Smithfield granny flat to the Canterbury Road apartment, and counting back 18 months from November, 2021, the times given suggest they moved into the Smithfield granny flat in mid 2020, stayed about 18 months and then moved to the Canterbury unit.
So, where were they from their arrival in 2017 until they moved into the Smithfield address with Rita and her family living above?
There are a few other things an intrepid journalist might discover (the police, I assume, already have). One is: they were attending TAFE (a little like a Community college). Did they complete their courses? How well did they do? Who paid the fees? Another is: the ABC reports how the sisters seemed to a plumber and a building manager (fearful, timid, scared, unwilling to engage in conversation). But the reporter did not think to ask these people how well the unit was furnished. And in what way.
The ABC report also relates the story of the crucifixes from the person who found them. It seems strange to me that if the unit had been correctly forensically processed by the police that these small items would be left on the floor.

 

[bfew]

According to the ABC report, the Alsehli sisters moved to the Canterbury Rd unit (where they were found dead) in November, 2021. So, assuming the sisters moved from the Smithfield granny flat to the Canterbury Road apartment

Given that what appears to be a car that is exactly the same (including type of spokes) as the 2 sisters black BMW, appearing on Google Street View at the Canterbury BP Service Station dated February 2021.

Assuming the Google date is correct, it is the same car, and they first moved into the apartment where they were found dead in Nov 2021 as per the ABC report, how about the following scenarios to explain the car:

Maybe the 2 sisters were either
- living or working somewhere else nearby in Canterbury or closeby in Feb 2021
- bought the car from someone who lived near to that Canterbury BP Service Station

 

[Aluev]

The ABC report also relates the story of the crucifixes from the person who found them. It seems strange to me that if the unit had been correctly forensically processed by the police that these small items would be left on the floor.

Exactly. For all we know these items might have been left there by someone after police had cleared the scene.

• In late March 2022, a plumber was called to the apartment to assess a water leak. As soon as he finished his work, he phoned Michael. The plumber said the sisters stayed in the corner of their front room the whole 10 minutes he was there and didn’t say a word. “[The plumber] was concerned that there was something untoward happening in the apartment,” says Michael. “He goes, ‘I don’t know. Something definitely wrong with that apartment. Something definitely happening in that place is not good’.” ″‘The girls look scared for some reason. I don’t want to go back.’”
• Michael called the police asking them to conduct a welfare check on the two women. But they wouldn’t unlock the door, he says. “Eventually the door was opened and the police stood at the door, asking the girls a series of questions. They said they were OK. They didn’t want any police involvement. And the police left it at that.”
• Still concerned, Michael went to the apartment with his day manager under the guise of looking for a leak. And what he saw has stuck with him ever since. “I went into the unit, I saw these two little girls stuck in the corner, like two little sparrows,” he says. “Really, I was looking to make sure there was nobody in the unit as well that was … causing them to be afraid or timid.

I get the feeling that all this indicates that someone might have been inside the apartment keeping them locked in. What the plumber and the apartment manager described was the stance of the girls that gave them bad vibes, not the condition the apartment was in.

 

[bfew]

Assuming .... they first moved into the apartment where they were found dead in Nov 2021 as per the ABC report

Daily Mail has them living in Canterbury in 2020, well before November 2021.

Major police backflip in baffling case of Saudi sisters found dead

Daily Mail Australia understands their photos and identities were only released last week after the coroner over-ruled the family's wishes - almost two months later.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'SYDNEY SAUDI 'MURDER' MYSTERY TIMELINE ​

.....
2020: They frequently visited a service station around their flat, with locals describing them as 'friendly'.'

 

[bfew]

Daily Mail has them living in Canterbury in 2020, well before November 2021.

So does SBS (an Australian Public Broadcaster) and the Sydney Morning Herald (mainstream major newspaper).

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/an-asylum-claim-and-missing-rent-what-we-know-about-the-tragic-case-of-sydneys-saudi-sisters/i3bak1v7m'

'They originally settled in Fairfield in Sydney's west before moving to a unit in the south-western suburb of Canterbury in 2020.

Dead Saudi sisters were ‘like two little sparrows ... scared of something’

A man who tried to help two young Saudi women who died mysteriously in Sydney say they cowered like frightened sparrows. “They were afraid of something”

www.smh.com.au

'The sisters originally settled in Fairfield in Sydney, before moving to Canterbury about 2020.'

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

Some things that stood out to me from the ABC report in addition to @Arboreal excellent summary (thank you for that insightful link!)

According to this quote there seem to be contradictions in the sisters behavior. “In late January, the sisters sent him an anxious email asking him to check the building’s CCTV cameras, as they feared their food delivery had been tampered with. They told him they were planning to contact the police. When he checked the cameras, Michael found nothing.”

Here, the sisters were claiming to want to contact police. Yet shortly afterwards when Michael requested a welfare check the girls told police they didn’t want them involved. This was a perfect opportunity for them to stress their concerns. Next, the sisters contacted Michael on multiple occasions seeking his help for their fears (keyed car, food tampering, man watching them). When Michael showed up to their apartment under the guise of looking for leaks, then told them he was concerned for them and asked what was wrong, they refused to speak a single word to him. What sparked the changes in behavior? My own words, but “We plan to contact police” to police showing up and “no, we’re fine and don’t want you involved”. And “Michael, bad things are happening, please help us.” to “we won’t speak to you, please leave.”
He noticed no one else there, but could they have gone to the balcony to hide? Could the girls not at least secretly plea for help?

Secondly, under a photo of the service saltation it said the girls hadn’t been there for over 3 months. My timing may be off but I believe that is before their death so why did they stop coming in when previously they’d go multiple times a day for coffee and energy drinks? Because of money or something else?

Lastly, how weird (or maybe a bit of paranoia on their part) that the journalists mentioned a car slowing to photograph them and make sure they noticed. What do we make of that? The private investigator the girls mentioned?

 

[bfew]

According to this quote there seem to be contradictions in the sisters behavior. “In late January, the sisters sent him an anxious email asking him to check the building’s CCTV cameras, as they feared their food delivery had been tampered with. They told him they were planning to contact the police. When he checked the cameras, Michael found nothing.”

You missed the bit in the more detailed 42 minute accompanying ABC podcast that explained in more detail why Michael found nothing when checking the CCTV camera footage.

Did you listen to all of the 42 minute podcast?

 

[bfew]

Lastly, how weird (or maybe a bit of paranoia on their part) that the journalists mentioned a car slowing to photograph them and make sure they noticed. What do we make of that? The private investigator the girls mentioned?

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[ForensicToxicologist]

You missed the bit in the more detailed 42 minute accompanying ABC podcast that explained in more detail why Michael found nothing when checking the CCTV camera footage.

Did you listen to all of the 42 minute podcast?

Ah I see. I was unable to listen to the podcast and just read the article. Would you mind summarizing? I more so meant that he didn’t see anyone else while he was inside their apartment, but I’m very curious about the cctv now

 

[bfew]

Ah I see. I was unable to listen to the podcast and just read the article. Would you mind summarizing? I more so meant that he didn’t see anyone else while he was inside their apartment, but I’m very curious about the cctv now

Here's all the links to the 42 minute ABC podcast so far.
Lots more info in the podcast than is in the accompanying ABC articles to it, like the sisters allegedly found naked in their beds, which was not mentioned or refuted in the accompanying articles.

I recall the podcast saying something like that the building CCTV did not cover the apartment corridors.
The official podcast transcript will be out on Tuesday.
Maybe someone else who listens to the podcast tonight or tomorrow, can provide the exact quotes on the CCTV bit in the podcast.

What happened to the Saudi sisters? - ABC listen

The mysterious discovery of the Alsehli sisters, who were found dead in a Sydney flat after more than a month, has shocked Australians. But who are they? What were they doing here? And most chillingly - why are they dead? Reporters Rachael Brown and Mahmood Fazal investigate. Please note this...

www.abc.net.au

'Transcript
A transcript for this program will be made available the Tuesday after broadcast.'

What happened to the Saudi sisters?

Podcast Episode · Background Briefing · 05/08/2022 · 42m

podcasts.apple.com

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

Thank you @bfew !

 

[bfew]

Lots more info in the podcast than is in the accompanying ABC articles to it, like the sisters allegedly found naked in their beds, which was not mentioned or refuted in the accompanying articles.

With no eyewitness on this found naked bit named in the ABC podcast. Just someone telling someone else they'd heard that was how the bodies were found, I speculate that it might have just been a case of the clothing of the 2 sisters being removed for forensic testing, whilst they were still in their beds, before the bodies were moved. And someone then seeing the resulting unclothed bodies, and wrongly assuming that was how they were found. Or someone hearing the bodies were unclothed when removed, and wrongly assuming that they were unclothed when found.

 

[websleuth1111]

Listening to the podcast, it's hard to tell if the building manager was able to properly check the apartment everywhere (cupboards, balcony etc.)-I get the feeling someone was already in the apartment with them by this stage. This would make sense for them to act timid, standing in a corner and not saying anything. The previous landlord thinks he remembers their rental enquiry coming from SSI Home - Settlement Services International (asylum seeker settlement program).
The building manager and plumber were concerned about the girls- they seemed to be worried about the girls safety, the building manager said to them that he wasn't really there to check for a leak (second visit), and told them if there's anything wrong to tell him. They didn't. They remained scared and wanted him to leave.

 

[websleuth1111]

Exactly. For all we know these items might have been left there by someone after police had cleared the scene.



I get the feeling that all this indicates that someone might have been inside the apartment keeping them locked in. What the plumber and the apartment manager described was the stance of the girls that gave them bad vibes, not the condition the apartment was in.

I agree- I think someone has been in the apartment guarding them. I think this might be the guy spotted in the lobby who claimed to be from apartment 115 (their apartment)

 

[Via Marple]

I agree- I think someone has been in the apartment guarding them. I think this might be the guy spotted in the lobby who claimed to be from apartment 115 (their apartment)

And I would speculate that the guy had to look rather unusual, for a worker to say that he was a stranger. Workers don't often recognise every resident in a big block of apartments.

But if he really was doing something nefarious at 115, how brazen for him to admit it, to a worker who asked.

 

[Dotta]

But if there was somebody threatening them in the apartment, wouldn't they somehow signal it to Police during the wellness check?

You know, just pointing a finger in the direction where this man was hiding?

Re: the stranger in the hall.

He might have been a friend of sisters/maybe a member or Syrian family with whom the girls had lived previously.
That is why he didn't lie and said he went to nr 115.

MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Exactly. For all we know these items might have been left there by someone after police had cleared the scene.



I get the feeling that all this indicates that someone might have been inside the apartment keeping them locked in. What the plumber and the apartment manager described was the stance of the girls that gave them bad vibes, not the condition the apartment was in.

I'm wondering how much is due to their (previous) faith? It is so forbidden for an uncovered woman to be gazed upon by a male that even having allegedly turned their back on islam, they would still have that ingrained into them since birth. So having a man come in their apartment would be quite something.