Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #4

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  • #441
Just because the cases are similar, doesn't mean they happened the same way, or the outcome will be the same.

I don't think anyone's accused Tostee of being stupid. Copying a failed murder/defense would be just that.

These cases are very similar.
Both deaths happened in a very similar way.
I'm hoping the outcome will end in a very similar sentence.

I don't think he's copying but a girl has fallen from his balcony, the only defence is that she decided to jump.
 
  • #442
  • #443
  • #444
Well I think it would be wise for Gable to stay away from shopping any further kind of psychological line of defence, seriously - as it seems there is a bit of a convergence problem which has been identified with high functioning autistics and psychopaths:
Because persons with hfASD have difficulties appreciating the subjective experiences of other persons, there may be a lack of intersubjective resonance, or empathy.20,59This, in turn, may compromise the experience of remorse. Judges and juries find expression of remorse highly relevant to sentencing. Therefore, individuals with hfASDs who engage in abnormal social displays of affect and a diminished capacity for empathy and remorse may be at substantial risk of offending judges and juries. Traditionally, forensic clinicians have been called on to educate legal personnel about the significance of aberrant displays of remorse, often in relation to psychopathy. Therefore, in cases involving hfASD, it may also be necessary to explain that a lack of remorse can be associated with hfASD, a neuropsychiatric developmental disorder with a high degree of heritability. The genetic heritability of ASD has been estimated to be approximately 90 percent.60 However, it should be emphasized that environmental factors such as bullying by others, excessive noise level, family instability, and the presence of antisocial individuals may also predispose persons with hfASD to engage in antisocial behavior.13 Also, converging information from many neuroscientific investigations strongly supports a neuropsychiatric basis for ASDs, including for AD.61–63 However, it must be emphasized that the psychiatric literature also suggests deficits in the experience of remorse and empathy in psychopaths.64 Therefore, Antisocial Personality Disorder and related psychopathology64,65 must be considered in forensic psychiatric evaluations of individuals with hfASD. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive, and it may be that psychopathic loading in an hfASD proband can enhance the likelihood of criminal behavior.
http://www.jaapl.org/content/34/3/374.full#sec-13

I mean, they could argue until the cows come home that both Wrie and Gable were psycho and she pushed too many of his buttons and he snapped.
I now see in the comment section on a very ordinary blog style article a familiar little voice saying a day ago that Gable has forensic proof of his injuries from the metal object. His dad did offer to take him to hospital ... But nah, he was fine ...
Oh, in same comment, Wrie was apparently hallucinating (again) from drugs.

ETA: I believe we can paraphrase snippets from blogs but not quote.
 
  • #445
that Gable has forensic proof of his injuries from the metal object

..tho the examining doctor said some wounds were possibly self inflicted.
 
  • #446
Well I think it would be wise for Gable to stay away from shopping any further kind of psychological line of defence, seriously - as it seems there is a bit of a convergence problem which has been identified with high functioning autistics and psychopaths:

http://www.jaapl.org/content/34/3/374.full#sec-13

I mean, they could argue until the cows come home that both Wrie and Gable were psycho and she pushed too many of his buttons and he snapped.
I now see in the comment section on a very ordinary blog style article a familiar little voice saying a day ago that Gable has forensic proof of his injuries from the metal object. His dad did offer to take him to hospital ... But nah, he was fine ...
Oh, in same comment, Wrie was apparently hallucinating (again) from drugs.

ETA: I believe we can paraphrase snippets from blogs but not quote.

Yes you can paraphrase a comment from a blog but it can't be discussed.
 
  • #447
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  • #448
..tho the examining doctor said some wounds were possibly self inflicted.

I wonder if they are going to be able to determine whether wounds happened after Rrie died, and/or before he even met Rrie. I guess that there may be expert opinions on that. Just like in the GBC trial.
 
  • #449
  • #450
They will allege Ms Wright and Tostee met in Cavill Mall about 9pm on August 7 after connecting on Tinder and went back to his apartment.

Witnesses told police they heard a man and woman arguing and the woman screaming “No, no, no” several times and “I just want to go home” just before she plummeted to her death.

Police will allege she was trying to climb to the balcony below to escape Tostee when she fell.

CCTV footage obtained by police allegedly shows Tostee in the building foyer soon after the tragedy.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/police-allege-gable-tostee-assaulted-warriena-wright-before-she-plunged-to-her-death-from-his-14th-floor-apartment-on-the-gold-coast/story-fnihsrf2-1227026801082?nk=9935b935e4af4ef03b053b65d68aff74

Is the prosecutor still pursuing this, or is he charging GT for pushing her or dropping her off the balcony?

Please provide a link. I'm way behind on this.
 
  • #451
Is the prosecutor still pursuing this, or is he charging GT for pushing her or dropping her off the balcony?

Please provide a link. I'm way behind on this.


We're not sure, it looks like the charge may be downgraded to manslaughter. I guess they may still be deciding if they have a strong enough case to go with the murder charge of Rrie trying to escape while in great fear and being deprived of her liberty. Anything more is our own speculation and feeling, because - try as we might - we are really struggling to see how Rrie would be trying to climb down in the position she was seen. She would not have been trying to climb sideways, as there is no balcony adjacent to that balcony.



Mr Power (prosecutor) said by doing so, he deprived her of her liberty.

"The dangerous act was shoving the victim out onto a 14-storey balcony and locking her out there," Mr Power told the court.

"He had a choice of whether to allow the victim to leave. She was pleading with him to let her go.

"He, through that act, deprived her of her liberty.

"Manslaughter looms at least as a very strong possibility."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...erer-has-social-disorders-court-hears/5900308
 
  • #452
  • #453
PROSECUTORS of Gable Tostee are determined to *pursue a charge of murder over the balcony-fall death of *Warriena Wright — despite a judge previously describing their case as weak.

But Judge Debra Mullins said Tostee’s intentions were irrelevant under the second definition of *murder, and that it would be up to a jury to test that during the trial. She said it was “not in any way a straightforward case of murder”

Judge Mullins said Tostee “seems to have quarantined himself” from his involvement with Ms Wright in the five and a half hours before her death.

She said his defence of the charges did not explain his apparent lack of expressing regret and noted that he did not phone emergency services after she fell.

Instead he phoned his lawyer, then his father.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...trict-conditions/story-fnj94j0t-1227127491700
 
  • #454
It will be interesting to see what all of the consulting experts will conclude with regard to Rrie’s murder - they will have become involved in this case since the initial findings, I'm sure. When I have been looking around at other cases, all kinds of things come to light once the experts get involved and test the forensic findings.


Dr Corrina Cory, expert in Injury Biomechanics worked with sophisticated scanning, 3-D modeling, the original CCTV and human modeling simulations …..
Given the nature of his (Mark’s) injuries, the two most likely explanations are that he was backed into the railing and pushed over, or that he was not conscious, and was dropped over the railing.

http://www.justiceformark.com/#sthash.UrMeWpDT.dpuf

Grant Fredericks, a leading US video forensics analyst who teaches at the FBI National Academy, says …
"The only explanation I can think of is that somebody might have dropped him off the balcony. He doesn't climb over the railing himself. He doesn't jump. He just suddenly appears outside the railing and falls."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20629287

Dr. Judy Melinek ..... Melinek told FoxNews.com that the child had injuries to his body that could not have been caused from a fall alone.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/0...son-likely-homicide-independent-report-finds/
 
  • #455
It will be interesting to see what all of the consulting experts will conclude with regard to Rrie’s murder - they will have become involved in this case since the initial findings, I'm sure. When I have been looking around at other cases, all kinds of things come to light once the experts get involved and test the forensic findings.

seems like experts will be able to give an even more in-depth analysis of the actions immediately leading to poor Rrie's tumble over the balcony...analyses which may not agree with Tostee's rendition...

:sleuth:

JMO...
 
  • #456
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...th-prosecutors-to-supply-key-evidence/5804418
From this news report published on 10th October 2014, it says

Magistrate Kerry McGee adjourned the matter until January 12 for a committal mention.

Then this news report http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...th-gable-tostees-lawyers-20141203-11zeeg.html published on 3rd December, 2014 its says

Investigators are expected to complete their full brief of evidence against Mr Tostee by April, with a trial likely to occur in 2016.

Now, according to the Queensland Government (Department of Justice and Attorney General) website, http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justi...-in-court/magistrates-court/committal-hearing the definition of a Committal Hearing is given -

Committal hearing
The magistrate's role is to decide if there is sufficient evidence on which a jury could convict to send the defendant to trial in the District Court or Supreme Court.

the prosecutor will present the case against the defendant and call witnesses to obtain their evidence
the defence lawyer or defendant may cross-examine these witnesses
the magistrate may invite submissions
after hearing all the evidence the magistrate will decide if there is sufficient evidence to put the defendant on trial
if satisfied the magistrate will charge the defendant
the magistrate will warn the defendant and then ask the defendant if they want to say anything in answer to the charge or enter a plea
if they plead not guilty, the defendant is committed for trial in the District Court or Supreme Court
if they plead guilty, the defendant is committed for sentencing
if there is not enough evidence the magistrate will dismiss the case.

I am just summising that the Police is still preparing their full brief of evidence which will be ready by April 2015, but at the Committal hearing January 2015, the Magistrate is going to deliberate whether there is sufficient evidence for the charge of Murder (at this stage) and it just feels the Police should have the full brief of evidence by the Committal hearing, right?

Because, according to this other link from the same website http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justi...before-a-summary-hearing-or-committal-hearing

Before a summary hearing or committal hearing
Before you attend your summary or committal hearing you should:

get a copy of the prosecutor's brief of evidence
get legal advice
gather additional facts and evidence
decide if you will give evidence
organise your witnesses
attend your review mention
prepare for a guilty verdict.
Get a copy of the prosecutor's brief of evidence

In addition to the QP9 form, you need to know what the prosecutor will try and prove in court and whether you have a defence.

The police will prepare a brief of evidence that could contain things like:

witness statements
video footage
medical evidence.
You should write to the prosecutor and ask for a copy of the brief of evidence at least 14 days before the next mention date.

Contact your lawyer or Legal Aid Queensland if you have trouble getting a copy.

Get legal advice

Once you have the brief of evidence, seek legal advice to:

understand the elements of the offence that the police have to prove
highlight the brief of evidence for parts you agree and disagree with or can show to be wrong.
For information on legal advice contact:

Legal Aid Queensland
Queensland Law Society.

Gather additional facts and evidence

The magistrate makes a decision based on the evidence presented during the hearing.

Evidence can be:

what is said by yourself or defence witnesses in the witness box
exhibits including any objects, diagrams, photos, video footage, letters etc.
When preparing your evidence, remember:

write down your version of events and if you choose to give evidence,
practice what you want to say to the magistrate
if you go back to the scene of the alleged offence to gather evidence,

make sure you record the date and time of your visit label any photographs on the back to explain what they relate to and ask your witnesses if they agree with your description of the photos
make two copies of everything. The original goes to the magistrate and you need to provide a copy to the police prosecutor.
Decide if you will give evidence

You do not have to give evidence, and should seek legal advice to help you carefully consider this option.

If you want to give evidence:

you will have to go into the witness box or 'take the stand' and give your evidence under oath or affirmation
the police can cross-examine you.
If you decide not to give evidence:

you or your lawyer can question the police and the police witnesses about the evidence they have provided
you cannot address the court to provide your version of events.
Organise your witnesses

The purpose of defence witnesses is to confirm your version of events in court.

Witnesses mainly appear in summary hearings and trials, but usually do not appear in committal hearings.

Witnesses can also be recognised experts such as doctors or engineers, who give their opinion if needed.

You will need to arrange for your witnesses to attend court. Witnesses can also provide a sworn statement, but they must be available to go to court to be cross-examined.

If they refuse to come, you can subpoena them, through arranging for the court to send a summons to witness. This document demands a person comes to court to give evidence or produce relevant documents.

This process will cost money and you should seek legal advice.

Attend your review mention

You have to go to a review mention before your summary hearing or committal hearing. This is when you tell the magistrate you are ready to go to a hearing.

At the review mention, the magistrate will ask you:

if you have finalised whether you will plead guilty or not guilty
if you have organised witnesses
what type of evidence you will be providing
if you have received the brief of evidence.
Prepare for a guilty verdict

Even though you have pleaded 'not guilty', the court may find you guilty. You need to consider what you would say to the court about any sentence they give you.

Shouldn't the logical sequence be have the full brief of evidence ready, then have the Committal Hearing? Would love to have some advice and clarity on this particular issue.
 
  • #457
  • #458
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...th-prosecutors-to-supply-key-evidence/5804418
From this news report published on 10th October 2014, it says

Magistrate Kerry McGee adjourned the matter until January 12 for a committal mention.

Then this news report http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...th-gable-tostees-lawyers-20141203-11zeeg.html published on 3rd December, 2014 its says

Investigators are expected to complete their full brief of evidence against Mr Tostee by April, with a trial likely to occur in 2016.

Now, according to the Queensland Government (Department of Justice and Attorney General) website, http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justi...-in-court/magistrates-court/committal-hearing the definition of a Committal Hearing is given -

Committal hearing
The magistrate's role is to decide if there is sufficient evidence on which a jury could convict to send the defendant to trial in the District Court or Supreme Court.

the prosecutor will present the case against the defendant and call witnesses to obtain their evidence
the defence lawyer or defendant may cross-examine these witnesses
the magistrate may invite submissions
after hearing all the evidence the magistrate will decide if there is sufficient evidence to put the defendant on trial
if satisfied the magistrate will charge the defendant
the magistrate will warn the defendant and then ask the defendant if they want to say anything in answer to the charge or enter a plea
if they plead not guilty, the defendant is committed for trial in the District Court or Supreme Court
if they plead guilty, the defendant is committed for sentencing
if there is not enough evidence the magistrate will dismiss the case.

I am just summising that the Police is still preparing their full brief of evidence which will be ready by April 2015, but at the Committal hearing January 2015, the Magistrate is going to deliberate whether there is sufficient evidence for the charge of Guilty (at this stage) and it just feels the Police should have the full brief of evidence by the Committal hearing, right?

Because, according to this other link from the same website http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justi...before-a-summary-hearing-or-committal-hearing

Before a summary hearing or committal hearing
Before you attend your summary or committal hearing you should:

get a copy of the prosecutor's brief of evidence
get legal advice
gather additional facts and evidence
decide if you will give evidence
organise your witnesses
attend your review mention
prepare for a guilty verdict.
Get a copy of the prosecutor's brief of evidence

In addition to the QP9 form, you need to know what the prosecutor will try and prove in court and whether you have a defence.

The police will prepare a brief of evidence that could contain things like:

witness statements
video footage
medical evidence.
You should write to the prosecutor and ask for a copy of the brief of evidence at least 14 days before the next mention date.

Contact your lawyer or Legal Aid Queensland if you have trouble getting a copy.

Get legal advice

Once you have the brief of evidence, seek legal advice to:

understand the elements of the offence that the police have to prove
highlight the brief of evidence for parts you agree and disagree with or can show to be wrong.
For information on legal advice contact:

Legal Aid Queensland
Queensland Law Society.

Gather additional facts and evidence

The magistrate makes a decision based on the evidence presented during the hearing.

Evidence can be:

what is said by yourself or defence witnesses in the witness box
exhibits including any objects, diagrams, photos, video footage, letters etc.
When preparing your evidence, remember:

write down your version of events and if you choose to give evidence,
practice what you want to say to the magistrate
if you go back to the scene of the alleged offence to gather evidence,

make sure you record the date and time of your visit label any photographs on the back to explain what they relate to and ask your witnesses if they agree with your description of the photos
make two copies of everything. The original goes to the magistrate and you need to provide a copy to the police prosecutor.
Decide if you will give evidence

You do not have to give evidence, and should seek legal advice to help you carefully consider this option.

If you want to give evidence:

you will have to go into the witness box or 'take the stand' and give your evidence under oath or affirmation
the police can cross-examine you.
If you decide not to give evidence:

you or your lawyer can question the police and the police witnesses about the evidence they have provided
you cannot address the court to provide your version of events.
Organise your witnesses

The purpose of defence witnesses is to confirm your version of events in court.

Witnesses mainly appear in summary hearings and trials, but usually do not appear in committal hearings.

Witnesses can also be recognised experts such as doctors or engineers, who give their opinion if needed.

You will need to arrange for your witnesses to attend court. Witnesses can also provide a sworn statement, but they must be available to go to court to be cross-examined.

If they refuse to come, you can subpoena them, through arranging for the court to send a summons to witness. This document demands a person comes to court to give evidence or produce relevant documents.

This process will cost money and you should seek legal advice.

Attend your review mention

You have to go to a review mention before your summary hearing or committal hearing. This is when you tell the magistrate you are ready to go to a hearing.

At the review mention, the magistrate will ask you:

if you have finalised whether you will plead guilty or not guilty
if you have organised witnesses
what type of evidence you will be providing
if you have received the brief of evidence.
Prepare for a guilty verdict

Even though you have pleaded 'not guilty', the court may find you guilty. You need to consider what you would say to the court about any sentence they give you.

Shouldn't the logical sequence be have the full brief of evidence ready, then have the Committal Hearing? Would love to have some advice and clarity on this particular issue.

Slinki, its only a committal mention

Magistrate Kerry McGee adjourned the matter until January 12 for a committal mention.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...th-prosecutors-to-supply-key-evidence/5804418
 
  • #459
  • #460
Gable, who has been treated by a psychiatrist since 2009 for 'insecure social anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder and depression' is banned from using any form of social media.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ged-murder-Warriena-Wright.html#ixzz3N3xWZXGv

Being treated for 5 years is a whole lot different than a defense psychiatrist coming up with an excuse just prior to trial. It's funny how some MSM leave things out. Now if I can just find out if he has a history of being diagnosed with autism or not.

:findinglink:
 
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