Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #30

[sosocurious]

I hope those medical reports have precise records.



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I hope they collected a swab - they can do so much with dna these days.

 

[sosocurious]

I was never clear about whether the Victorian case involves children other than the original two. But the younger would not have been born in 1983 and the elder surely too young to remember. There must be other witnesses at least.

Who are the persons he shared the children with? Are they alive?
Are their identites known?
Geez, they could have been charged and in courts as well ..... for all we know.
:gaah:

 

[they'll get you]

sounds like he was a very active paedophile and yet he still had children in his care!
how can ms stay with him and be all perky permed and smug to the media like shes a minor celebrity, shes married to a monster!!!
hopefully taskforce sano are up to it, wonder if rodney and co still support him now they know of these victorian allegations and how did bs keep it all from family finding out?

MS gave up those children in her care to stand by him.
IMHO those children obviously didn’t mean as much to her as did an alleged pedophile. Is it to follow the money or security?
I wonder if those children shared relevant information to the police that neither BS or MS were good guardians.



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[bearbear]

MS gave up those children in her care to stand by him.
IMHO those children obviously didn’t mean as much to her as did an alleged pedophile. Is it to follow the money or security?
I wonder if those children shared relevant information to the police that neither BS or MS were good guardians.



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also, werent they removed from ms/bs care before william went missing? wasnt there something being investigated?

 

[they'll get you]

also, werent they removed from ms/bs care before william went missing? wasnt there something being investigated?

If they were being investigated prior that shows problems.
OK I thought they were removed afterwards.




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[JLZ]

MS gave up those children in her care to stand by him.
IMHO those children obviously didn’t mean as much to her as did an alleged pedophile. Is it to follow the money or security?
I wonder if those children shared relevant information to the police that neither BS or MS were good guardians.



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If there were things about BS that were making the kids uncomfortable, they probably wouldn't have wanted to stay with MS either. By this point I would hope the boys' wishes were consulted, even if they weren't alleging criminal conduct.

 

[bearbear]

from the australian sept 2016
william tyrrell fear in kendall where little boy disappeared

Reports followed about clusters of convicted pedophiles relocating to the NSW mid-north coast. Hearsay and rumour met anger and confusion, and met 11-year-old Emelia Copelin in the back seat of the family car as the Copelins took a scenic detour through the old logging village of Kendall to their home in Beechwood, 20km north. “Don’t stop here,” she said, anxiously. “As soon as they got here, they just said they wanted to get out,” says Emelia’s mum, Alison Copelin. “They still talk about it all the time.”
“There’s a lot of underlying factors that you hear about,” says Emelia’s dad, a youth worker in a local 24/7 crisis centre who is more attuned than most to the region’s “underlying factors”.
“It’s there,” he says, matter-of-factly. “The element is there. When you hear about it you kind of only hear what the media portrays and then, when you actually work in the industry and talk to people who you know, there’s a lot more stuff that’s under that which the media doesn’t get to. Confidentiality and privacy and all that comes into play with it, but you look at it and you just go, ‘What did happen?’ ”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...d/news-story/2d8aa4bde6c83ded451c26090fb55643

 

[JLZ]

also, werent they removed from ms/bs care before william went missing? wasnt there something being investigated?

I think the boys were removed well after William went missing, when the girls' allegations became publicly known, which was some time after the blitz on Spedding properties. I think there may have been an investigation into the boys' care earlier, but I don't know its nature--what had been alleged. It may not have been about sexual abuse.

 

[bearbear]

“We never thought for a minute it was someone from town,” says Judy Wilson.
Like William’s grandmother, she has since moved out of Benaroon Drive, but in September 2014 Wilson lived in the house that adjoins William’s grandmother’s back yard. In the days after he vanished, she couldn’t shake the thought that William’s potential abductor had waited for her to go into town to run errands before activating a plan too dark for Wilson to dwell on.
“We think about William every day,” she says. “And when we think of him we think of him alive.”
From his house directly opposite William’s grandmother’s former home, an elderly man named Paul (surname withheld for privacy reasons) and his son, Sean, have watched long-time friends and neighbours slowly drift away from Benaroon Drive.
“A lot of them have moved,” he says. “One bloke left because he felt intimidated by the police. He had a few problems. He wasn’t a crook or a bad bloke, just a bit of a loner. He wanted out.”
“A recluse,” says Sean. “I think all of the attention sort of frightened him.”
“They were coming around checking everything and he got scared,” Paul says. “Just the fear of that.” He shrugs his shoulders. “You got to let them do their job and they’re still following up on everything. They’re doing a good job.”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...d/news-story/2d8aa4bde6c83ded451c26090fb55643

 

[JLZ]

I hope they collected a swab - they can do so much with dna these days.

They may have taken a swab but it's unlikely it would yield evidence if the assault was weeks or months earlier.

 

[sosocurious]

If there were things about BS that were making the kids uncomfortable, they probably wouldn't have wanted to stay with MS either. By this point I would hope the boys' wishes were consulted, even if they weren't alleging criminal conduct.

According to paper, court documents show the NSW Department of Family and Community Services had case notes dating back to 1987 that detail allegations that Mr Spedding had assaulted two girls, aged three and six, in Sydney.

The mother whose three children were living with Mr Spedding at the time William disappeared in Kendall last September, said she had raised the allegations surrounding the alleged 1987 abuse involving Mr Spedding during a meeting with state authorities roughly 2½ years ago.

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...g/news-story/2a8a51819720492213582b8d70dc61da

About 2 1/2 years ago -the mother raised the allegations.
It seems that could have been about the time BS was selling up and leaving Wellington and heading to Port, to be with the family.

Paper court documents I wonder how long they took to find once someone really wanted to find them?

No wonder BS thought it best he ask for another paper document stating he had not abused the victim when she was a child ....:tantrum:
That just cries guilt to me......
imo

 

[JLZ]

“We never thought for a minute it was someone from town,” says Judy Wilson.
Like William’s grandmother, she has since moved out of Benaroon Drive, but in September 2014 Wilson lived in the house that adjoins William’s grandmother’s back yard. In the days after he vanished, she couldn’t shake the thought that William’s potential abductor had waited for her to go into town to run errands before activating a plan too dark for Wilson to dwell on.
“We think about William every day,” she says. “And when we think of him we think of him alive.”
From his house directly opposite William’s grandmother’s former home, an elderly man named Paul (surname withheld for privacy reasons) and his son, Sean, have watched long-time friends and neighbours slowly drift away from Benaroon Drive.
“A lot of them have moved,” he says. “One bloke left because he felt intimidated by the police. He had a few problems. He wasn’t a crook or a bad bloke, just a bit of a loner. He wanted out.”
“A recluse,” says Sean. “I think all of the attention sort of frightened him.”
“They were coming around checking everything and he got scared,” Paul says. “Just the fear of that.” He shrugs his shoulders. “You got to let them do their job and they’re still following up on everything. They’re doing a good job.”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...d/news-story/2d8aa4bde6c83ded451c26090fb55643

Doesn't say what time she left. Indeed, if she drove out just after 10:30, that would place her as a suspect to my thinking. It's near enough to the time William disappeared. And "I wasn't home" would be a dodgy thing to say.

I wonder if it was Paul's wife, who I understand has since died, who drove out just after 10:30.

 

[sosocurious]

If they were being investigated prior that shows problems.
OK I thought they were removed afterwards.




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Last Monday began like any other for Mr Spedding. He was sitting on the back porch planning his work schedule as his wife prepared to take their grandchildren to the park.

But at 7.30am their world turned upside down after their youngest grandson walked outside and said: “Nan, there are lots of cars out the front”.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...l/news-story/6d94cf0b183fb09f927bc96e3d67ce58
William Spedding: I never did anything to hurt William Tyrell

But Colin said

The children were this week taken away by Department of Community Services workers. Youngberry says they were staying with other relatives and that the kids were removed only to shield them from the intense media scrutiny.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...rs-disappearance/story-e6frg6z6-1227195227854
Suspicion torments NSW community as police probe toddler’s disappearance

Also in that article
Superintendent Paul Fehon, the officer in charge of the investigation, told Inquirer this week that there could be “very, very serious complications for them down the track if nothing eventuates”.
But questions will also be asked of the police if nothing eventuates with Spedding. They too have skin in this game.

 

[JLZ]

Superintendent Paul Fehon, the officer in charge of the investigation, told Inquirer this week that there could be “very, very serious complications for them down the track if nothing eventuates”.

I don't understand that. For them--whom? The Speddings? The boys? Why specifically if nothing eventuates?

 

[sosocurious]

Superintendent Paul Fehon, the officer in charge of the investigation, told Inquirer this week that there could be “very, very serious complications for them down the track if nothing eventuates”.

I don't understand that. For them--whom? The Speddings? The boys? Why specifically if nothing eventuates?

The media - the police.

 

[Karinna]

For anyone interested in reading this it gives a good overview in how historical SA cases are dealt with in the NSW courts. Not sure exactly when it was written but there is mention of the year 2012.
(quote)
Responding to Historical Child
Sexual Abuse: A Prosecution
Perspective on Current Challenges
and Future Directions
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/CICrimJust/2014/13.pdf

 

[sosocurious]

For anyone interested in reading this it gives a good overview in how historical SA cases are dealt with in the NSW courts. Not sure exactly when it was written but there is mention of the year 2012.
(quote)
Responding to Historical Child
Sexual Abuse: A Prosecution
Perspective on Current Challenges
and Future Directions
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/CICrimJust/2014/13.pdf

Interesting article.
JULY 2014 A PROSECUTION PERSPECTIVE 59

The passing of time means that police and ultimately prosecutors are faced with an inevitable loss of evidence: memory, scientific and medical evidence, written records and living or competent witnesses. Generally speaking, with witnesses who can be located, recall is diminished. This is very significant. There is often no overt evidence of this type of offence occurring. There is usually no injury, no eyewitness, and no DNA evidence: no independent support (Johnson 2004:463–4; London et al 2005:194).


There have, however, been recent significant advances in police methodology. The use of telephone intercepts and listening devices, in particular the use of pretext calls, have produced highly probative evidence. The distress occasioned to the victims by their participation in this type of procedure can be enormous. The courage demonstrated by them doing so is remarkable.
While procedures are in place to record children and vulnerable witness statements, adult complainants of child sexual abuse are still taken through the process of recording a written narrative of the relevant events. Once the written material is compiled and the investigation completed, upon charge, the brief of evidence is given to the Office of the Director of Public
Prosecutions (‘the DPP&#8217.

The DPP does not investigate. Charges are finalised and contact is made with the victim and the process to trial begins in earnest. Finding the correct historical charge is perhaps one of the greatest challenges for the prosecution.


Just as significantly, the centre of the investigation is the victim or the complainant. In my experience as a prosecutor, the time of complaint differs markedly between victims. The only common factor is that disclosure comes at a time when the complainant feels able or compelled to complain, such as when they have reached maturity or have children of their own that they feel the need to protect. Or a time may have come when it is safe to do so because the offender is no longer within the victim’s immediate circle (Johnson 2004:465).

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journal...st/2014/13.pdf


I wonder how many historical sexual abuses cases, actually have medical records that have observable injuries that indicate sexual abuse did indeed occur?
Albeit a disputed 'window' of time, that with expert witnesses may be able to reduce that 'window' due to the written records and medical description of injury to the victims.
Bruising - colour for instance can determine the length of time since injury.


Crown prosecutor Craig Everson said the prosecution would rely on tendency evidence between the two alleged victims and other allegations not the subject of charges on the indictment.
While the crown knows Mr Spedding denied the allegations, it did not know what form the allegations took and how they compared with recent statements.
Mr Spedding is facing five charges, including sexual intercourse with a child under 10 and common assault.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-b...hild-sexual-assault-case-20160907-grako8.html

So when BS was question way back when (1987) I am assuming it was about just that one event .... the one recorded in the medical notes.
It was not pursued due to the welfare of the children and their tender age.
Although a judge suggested a bizarre and compulsive woman made accusations against men...:

Well now it is the victims telling their story and there is medical evidence that says one was sexually abused.
Does the loss of BS's 1987 - written statement really matter in the scheme of things?

Finding the correct charges.

 

[frogwell]

Interesting article.
JULY 2014 A PROSECUTION PERSPECTIVE 59

The passing of time means that police and ultimately prosecutors are faced with an inevitable loss of evidence: memory, scientific and medical evidence, written records and living or competent witnesses. Generally speaking, with witnesses who can be located, recall is diminished. This is very significant. There is often no overt evidence of this type of offence occurring. There is usually no injury, no eyewitness, and no DNA evidence: no independent support (Johnson 2004:463–4; London et al 2005:194).


There have, however, been recent significant advances in police methodology. The use of telephone intercepts and listening devices, in particular the use of pretext calls, have produced highly probative evidence. The distress occasioned to the victims by their participation in this type of procedure can be enormous. The courage demonstrated by them doing so is remarkable.
While procedures are in place to record children and vulnerable witness statements, adult complainants of child sexual abuse are still taken through the process of recording a written narrative of the relevant events. Once the written material is compiled and the investigation completed, upon charge, the brief of evidence is given to the Office of the Director of Public
Prosecutions (‘the DPP&#8217.

The DPP does not investigate. Charges are finalised and contact is made with the victim and the process to trial begins in earnest. Finding the correct historical charge is perhaps one of the greatest challenges for the prosecution.


Just as significantly, the centre of the investigation is the victim or the complainant. In my experience as a prosecutor, the time of complaint differs markedly between victims. The only common factor is that disclosure comes at a time when the complainant feels able or compelled to complain, such as when they have reached maturity or have children of their own that they feel the need to protect. Or a time may have come when it is safe to do so because the offender is no longer within the victim’s immediate circle (Johnson 2004:465).

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journal...st/2014/13.pdf


I wonder how many historical sexual abuses cases, actually have medical records that have observable injuries that indicate sexual abuse did indeed occur?
Albeit a disputed 'window' of time, that with expert witnesses may be able to reduce that 'window' due to the written records and medical description of injury to the victims.
Bruising - colour for instance can determine the length of time since injury.


Crown prosecutor Craig Everson said the prosecution would rely on tendency evidence between the two alleged victims and other allegations not the subject of charges on the indictment.
While the crown knows Mr Spedding denied the allegations, it did not know what form the allegations took and how they compared with recent statements.
Mr Spedding is facing five charges, including sexual intercourse with a child under 10 and common assault.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-b...hild-sexual-assault-case-20160907-grako8.html

So when BS was question way back when (1987) I am assuming it was about just that one event .... the one recorded in the medical notes.
It was not pursued due to the welfare of the children and their tender age.
Although a judge suggested a bizarre and compulsive woman made accusations against men...:

Well now it is the victims telling their story and there is medical evidence that says one was sexually abused.
Does the loss of BS's 1987 - written statement really matter in the scheme of things?

Finding the correct charges.

Yes, because I feel certain that at the time the allegation was put to him, he would have known why JH's parole was revoked and directed the police to investigate. He may also have had an alibi for when this occurred and that person may be dead now. The current police do not seem to want to entertain the idea or acknowledge that JH could have done this even with the information that they have. His original statement would have talked about his brother in law, I imagine. Without his original statement, there is a great possibility that he is disadvantaged in this matter. Was he charged and released, if so he might have a copy of the original statement that police are supposed to give you. If they just interviewed him, I don't know if they have to give you a copy.

 

[frogwell]

Superintendent Paul Fehon, the officer in charge of the investigation, told Inquirer this week that there could be “very, very serious complications for them down the track if nothing eventuates”.

I don't understand that. For them--whom? The Speddings? The boys? Why specifically if nothing eventuates?

The media, The SMH put up the headline "Suspect" then quickly pulled it and sailed very close to the wind in portraying BS as the one who abducted WT, then the media is saying back, "well, you have skin in this game too," to the police. It is a polite warning back that the information that the media got came from police sources, and they might name them. If he hadn't been denied due process in the beginning, more people would trust this investigation. I think both the media and the police have used this as a test to see how far they can go without proof. Seems that from the time it happened to now many in the public are cool with it. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that kind of treatment. I remember ringing the Daily Terror and telling them I was appalled when they photographed BS van going past the search site on the fron t page of the paper and someone there saying lots of people are ringing up absolutely appalled.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, because I feel certain that at the time the allegation was put to him, he would have known why JH's parole was revoked and directed the police to investigate. He may also have had an alibi for when this occurred and that person may be dead now. The current police do not seem to want to entertain the idea or acknowledge that JH could have done this even with the information that they have. His original statement would have talked about his brother in law, I imagine. Without his original statement, there is a great possibility that he is disadvantaged in this matter. Was he charged and released, if so he might have a copy of the original statement that police are supposed to give you. If they just interviewed him, I don't know if they have to give you a copy.

I hear what you are saying, frogwell. I just have two major issues.

1. The youngest girl's recent severe injuries, which I am presuming are documented by the sexual assault unit at a time when Hillsley was incapable of inflicting those injuries ... as has been stated in more than several articles.

2. The crown prosecutor feels that there is sufficient/good evidence to present this case for trial. Usually they are reluctant to take a case to trial if they do not see a good case that the alleged perp will be found guilty.


I cannot take the judges' comments into consideration (not that you mentioned them, but as an aside) because the first judge said the evidence was strong, the second judge said the opposite ... and all that I can find in MSM is no evidence of the second judge being experienced with sexual assault cases.

.