Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #47

[SouthAussie]

I’m speculating here as to why he may have been called, but it ended up being a spectacularly effective strategy for BS to have Pollard there. It became headline news that evidence implicating BS was wrong. O’Brien made his point with a sledgehammer, to the extent that some media outlets are referring to BS as a “former POI”.

Yes, well. You can tell O'Brien is not my favourite person. Some legal beagles are too show-offy.
Other legals may admire the sledgehammer blows, I think they are unnecessary and humility goes a long way.

And you and I both know that Spedding is not a former POI until/unless the police/Coroner say so. Until the Coroner's final report is completed.

 

[Karinna]

What if DP wanted to be a 'helpful citizen' and decided to testify to something that would help police in this case?

If he saw all the police activity, and assumed BS was the guilty party, then maybe he could rationalise that he was doing a good thing, by reporting that work van?


And then OOPS---he finds out there is video showing BS is somewhere else at that time, having a beer with friends. So DP is forced to backtrack.

I think IMO that kind of thing speaks to just how unreliable witness testimony can often be.
There are some interesting articles about that online and i posted one upthread somewhere.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

And you and I both know that Spedding is not a former POI until/unless the police/Coroner say so. Until the Coroner's final report is completed.

That’s not correct. Police often don’t tell people that they are no longer under investigation. Quite often people only find out when charges aren’t laid within the time limitation. Police have no obligation whatsoever to advise a person of the state of an investigation. Having said that, I expect that BS would receive formal notification because of the legal proceedings he has instituted.

The Coroner does not decide who is or is not a POI. They may make a finding that based on all the evidence there is no reason to suspect someone. They may make findings about the credit of witnesses. They may make a recommendation that “a known person” be charged. But they don’t make findings on whether a person is a POI.

 

[Karinna]

Yes, well. You can tell O'Brien is not my favourite person. Some legal beagles are too show-offy.
Other legals may admire the sledgehammer blows, I think they are unnecessary and humility goes a long way.

And you and I both know that Spedding is not a former POI until/unless the police/Coroner say so. Until the Coroner's final report is completed.

Perhaps you would want someone like O'Brien in your corner if you were innocent though.
Who cares what his demeanour is as long as he is good at what he does. All IMO.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

What if DP wanted to be a 'helpful citizen' and decided to testify to something that would help police in this case?

If he saw all the police activity, and assumed BS was the guilty party, then maybe he could rationalise that he was doing a good thing, by reporting that work van?


And then OOPS---he finds out there is video showing BS is somewhere else at that time, having a beer with friends. So DP is forced to backtrack.

And would understandably be very unhappy about having to attend at the inquest.

That sounds very plausible to me.

 

[SouthAussie]

That’s not correct. Police often don’t tell people that they are no longer under investigation. Quite often people only find out when charges aren’t laid within the time limitation. Police have no obligation whatsoever to advise a person of the state of an investigation. Having said that, I expect that BS would receive formal notification because of the legal proceedings he has instituted.

The Coroner does not decide who is or is a POI. They may make a finding that based on all the evidence there is no reason to suspect someone. They may make findings about the credit of witnesses. They may make a recommendation that “a known person” be charged. But they don’t make findings on whether a person is a POI.

Yes, thanks. I am aware. I did not intend my post to be taken literally.

You may not be aware of our many previous posts outlining what we now know about inquests.

 

[Karinna]

That’s not correct. Police often don’t tell people that they are no longer under investigation. Quite often people only find out when charges aren’t laid within the time limitation. Police have no obligation whatsoever to advise a person of the state of an investigation. Having said that, I expect that BS would receive formal notification because of the legal proceedings he has instituted.

The Coroner does not decide who is or is a POI. They may make a finding that based on all the evidence there is no reason to suspect someone. They may make findings about the credit of witnesses. They may make a recommendation that “a known person” be charged. But they don’t make findings on whether a person is a POI.

Good to have you here and your input on this thread.
As far as POI's i can't remember any of the cases i have followed in the United States where law enforcement ever come out publicly to clear a POI. I just don't think they do that. But sometimes a POI has gone from POI status to Suspect, and soon after an arrest usually follows.

 

[SouthAussie]

What if DP wanted to be a 'helpful citizen' and decided to testify to something that would help police in this case?

If he saw all the police activity, and assumed BS was the guilty party, then maybe he could rationalise that he was doing a good thing, by reporting that work van?


And then OOPS---he finds out there is video showing BS is somewhere else at that time, having a beer with friends. So DP is forced to backtrack.

I tried to put up a little published info before about the good local reputation that Dean has, but it was snipped due to the mention of f_m_ly.

 

[katydid23]

Good to have you here and your input on this thread.
As far as POI's i can't remember any of the cases i have followed in the United States where law enforcement ever come out publicly to clear a POI. I just don't think they do that. But sometimes a POI has gone from POI status to Suspect, and soon after an arrest usually follows.

The only time I see that they announce that they have cleared a POI, in my experience, is when they announce that a parent or a spouse has been cleared in a missing person case.

I think they do that so the public will keep looking, and not assume the parent or spouse hid the body in the backyard?

 

[SouthAussie]

The only time I see that they announce that they have cleared a POI, in my experience, is when they announce that a parent or a spouse has been cleared in a missing person case.

I think they do that so the public will keep looking, and not assume the parent or spouse hid the body in the backyard?

Yes, they do that here as well. Publicly announce the clearing of close relatives to try to keep the public from looking at them. Ease the hard time the relatives are going through when they are thought to have had nothing to do with the crime.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

Good to have you here and your input on this thread.
As far as POI's i can't remember any of the cases i have followed in the United States where law enforcement ever come out publicly to clear a POI. I just don't think they do that. But sometimes a POI has gone from POI status to Suspect, and soon after an arrest usually follows.

Thanks Karrina

Occasionally police will call me to let me know that a file has been closed or charges won’t be laid. But it’s rare. BS is different because part of his claim is the basis on which he became, and the media was told, he was a POI. So I expect that he would have been told if he was no longer a POI.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

Yes, well. You can tell O'Brien is not my favourite person. Some legal beagles are too show-offy.
Other legals may admire the sledgehammer blows, I think they are unnecessary and humility goes a long way.

Brace yourself when Margaret Cuneen SC steps up to the plate. She is phenomenal!

 

[SouthAussie]

Brace yourself when Margaret Cuneen SC steps up to the plate. She is phenomenal!

Yes, I like her very much ... or the impressions I get about her. She is a real person and also a powerful, intelligent woman.

 

[sosocurious]

A lawyer, as the representative of an interested person, can call witnesses, although the Coroner would want to know the basis for it. The Coroner would normally be given the full police brief and would decide on what witnesses would be called. Interested parties (and BS was an interested party) would then make submissions on why they would want a particular witness called, if that witness wasn’t on the Coroner’ list of proposed witnesses.

If the police investigation was being examined, then evidence possibly eliminating a POI is very relevant.

So O'Brien must have known that DP was going to backflip on it being 100% Speddings van. Or why else would he have called him?

 

[sleepinoz]

Brace yourself when Margaret Cuneen SC steps up to the plate. She is phenomenal!

She's Jubelin's lawyer, she won't be at the inquest.

 

[Karinna]

The only time I see that they announce that they have cleared a POI, in my experience, is when they announce that a parent or a spouse has been cleared in a missing person case.

I think they do that so the public will keep looking, and not assume the parent or spouse hid the body in the backyard?

Yes you're right. i followed the case of the missing 15 week old baby that was found murdered, where the father was arrested and LE stated that the mom was not a POI at the time. But she was arrested as well a while later.

 

[Loxoli]

An inquest runs differently to a trial. It’s not a case where the Crown presents witnesses and then defence presents witnesses. Think of it as one big investigation. There would be a lot of work behind the scenes where the Coroner and lawyers meet and work out the most efficient way to proceed. Witnesses may not appear in an easily understandable order. Certain facts may be agreed by all parties with just a few questions asked of at we think are highly relevant witnesses. What happens in court is usually just a small portion of the evidence the Coroner will consider.

My understanding is that O’Brien has withdrawn from the inquest, which means that there is nothing more for BS to present or cross examine witnesses on.

I’m appreciating your input on William’s thread, Cleaver. Thanks for your fantastic insights.

 

[Karinna]

Thanks Karrina

Occasionally police will call me to let me know that a file has been closed or charges won’t be laid. But it’s rare. BS is different because part of his claim is the basis on which he became, and the media was told, he was a POI. So I expect that he would have been told if he was no longer a POI.

Thankyou for clarifying.

 

[SouthAussie]

She's Jubelin's lawyer, she won't be at the inquest.

It is fabulous she is representing Jubes for his legal proceedings. Really happy about that.

 

[SouthAussie]

When a lawyer no longer needs or wants to be in court in ongoing proceedings, they need to seek leave of the court to withdraw from the matter. Without leave of the court, the lawyer must continue to attend.

When I no longer want to be involved in an ongoing matter for whatever reason, I am required to attend court and formally ask the presiding judge for leave to withdraw.

Yes, but the lawyers only attend when their clients interests are at stake? From what I have heard from others who have attended the inquest, the lawyers are not all there every day. Only when it is relevant to them.

So, if Spedding is not there ... O'Brien did not need to be there.

I agree that O'Brien no longer wanted to be there.
And was making a point that Spedding was 'no longer needed'. Although we have since found out that if Spedding is recalled, O'Brien can come back with him - despite his withdrawal.