Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #48

[Sillybilly]

OT but ...

There seems to have been discussion among members about signature lines containing a blanket statement re everything in a post being opinion unless stated otherwise.

It's fine to have it in your signature line but not everyone has signatures turned on as it does take up extra space on the page while viewing and it is an option. Also if a member or guest without signatures turned on goes back through the convo, they may interpret opinion as fact because they are not seeing the blanket statement. Some posts are clearly opinion (I think, I wonder, etc) even without a MOO and those posts are fine.

150,000+ members ... imagine if everyone just had that blanket line in their signature. It's really not that hard to just put in a simple MOO

HTH ... any more questions, please take it to a Mod/Admin via private messaging and we will try to clarify.

 

[bearbear]

in this recent oct 6 caroline overington podcast from mamamia she mentions the location of the old coroners/morgue building in sydney and how the anguished cries of mothers identifying their dead children could be heard by close neighbours, forcing one of her friends to live elsewhere, thats something you wouldnt even think of happening, how traumatising, that buildings been there for years!so sad!

 

[they'll get you]

The similarities are chilling, initially police thought she had drowned and then decided abduction.
According to her mother this is how quickly she disappeared

Mrs Symes, who had been cleaning the house to prepare it for sale, said Aisling disappeared while she was inspecting the washing machine.

"I turned off the hot tap, looked behind me and there she was, watching what Caty and I were up to," a tearful Mrs Symes said.
"I turned off the cold tap, looked behind me, and she was gone -- that fast.

I agree with you kiwi and it sits in my mind as well. Look how small the drain pipe was that Aisling fell into.
Aisling was two, William was 3.

A drainpipe seems more possible than William being stolen in the middle of nowhere.
Details of toddler's death too much for parents

 

[they'll get you]

in this recent oct 6 caroline overington podcast from mamamia she mentions the location of the old coroners/morgue building in sydney and how the anguished cries of mothers identifying their dead children could be heard by close neighbours, forcing one of her friends to live elsewhere, thats something you wouldnt even think of happening, how traumatising, that buildings been there for years!so sad!

I attended the morgue there exactly three years ago now and you had to go into the back entrance of the old Coroners Court which was on a narrow little leafy street with pretty little houses there.
While consoling my grieving daughter and remember a fleeting though of what a sad place to live.

 

[they'll get you]

Perhaps he knew her from somewhere else, not just as the postie. Darts maybe? It's a small town so reasonable to assume the postie was a local and probably frequented some of the local social areas like clubs? And small towns love a bit of gossip so he could have picked up some interesting tidbit about her and confronted her about it.

If you wanted to carry gossip then a postie certainly could if they were inclined as you could hear it all if you wanted to listen.
When you’re a postie you could be a lonely old person’s lifeline to the world. If they wanted to chat I’d always stop and talk about the weather with them, they’d ask me in for a cuppa or a cold drink but they’d understand I’d have to be on my way but I never considered that harrassment but maybe some precious thinking person might.

 

[JLZ]

Hey JLZ, I'm interested to hear why you don't see any point to the question.

As you said, perhaps he no longer drives, but I think it important, given all the discussions re cars, to establish if Mr Chapman may've been on the road at the time of William's disappearance. ... for a multitude of reasons that I won't go into, but it's a question I'm totally comfortable with.

Are you suggesting the relevance is that there's a question of his possible involvement? Perhaps a lawyer for a POI had requested that RC be asked about his driving for that reason, to widen the field and potentially discredit his testimony.

 

[they'll get you]

William Tyrrell neighbour spent hours on walk-through with police

Mr Craddock pointed out there was a discrepancy of about 75 minutes between Mr Savage’s recollection of what he did after searching the bush and returning home.

His brother-in-law, Greg Newton, had stated he had arrived in the street between 1.15pm and 1.30pm, whereas Mr Craddock timed Mr Savage’s sighting of Mr Newton at around midday.

Did he have his tea and toast before or after or in between his two phone calls to his brother Laurie? What did he talk to Laurie about? What did have on his toast?

The answers were that Mr Savage wasn’t sure, that he “had a yack … about ‘how are you goin’, goin’ alright … I’ll be up there at such and such a time’,” and “jam”.

On the morning in question, Mr Savage told the women detectives he was “pretty sure … I’d say she would be”, that his late wife Heather had sat outside with him and they heard children playing, but he could not say absolutely.

Pausing the video frequently during Thursday’s hearings, Counsel Assisting Gerard Craddock, QC, asked Mr Savage yet again if Heather had been outside with him during the tea and toast session.

“I can’t say. I don’t remember,” Mr Savage said.

Could this be the reason why it’s imperative that police get statements as soon as possible while everything is fresh in people’s minds? Without a diary or statement I wouldn’t remember yesterday.

 

[they'll get you]

possibly from this comment by fm...

At the end of day one, the foster mother came off the stand and was embraced by the foster father in court, but continued her testimony into day two.

She told the court Nanna had thought William too “hyperactive, boisterous” in his play immediately before he vanished.

Inside the William Tyrrell inquest
Inside the divided inquest into the three-year-old’s disappearance

From what I’ve read William was bouncing with energy, both his FMC & FGM commented on it and IIRC FFC took him for a walk to take him mind off things.

Does anyone remember where William was when FFC and ‘Lindsay’ spotted the teal car which turned around?
Was that when he crashed his bike purposefully?

 

[JLZ]

Could this be the reason why it’s imperative that police get statements as soon as possible while everything is fresh in people’s minds? Without a diary or statement I wouldn’t remember yesterday.

I think the trouble with PS's evidence isn't that he doesn't remember one day five years ago very well; it's that apparently he doesn't remember what he just said at the inquest. If I was contradicting myself like he is I'd be flinching. I wasn't there, but I haven't heard he showed that sort of discomfort?

 

[they'll get you]

Are you suggesting the relevance is that there's a question of his possible involvement? Perhaps a lawyer for a POI had requested that RC be asked about his driving for that reason, to widen the field and potentially discredit his testimony.

Your post made wonder if RC went looking for the postie. If RC was really keen to get the plants a) he could’ve gone searching for the postie for a card or b) simply get them himself from the POffice.
If that day was delivery of the plants and the postie didn’t have them then they would’ve been at the POffice waiting, waiting dehydrating. Did he go driving?

 

[bearbear]

I attended the morgue there exactly three years ago now and you had to go into the back entrance of the old Coroners Court which was on a narrow little leafy street with pretty little houses there.
While consoling my grieving daughter and remember a fleeting though of what a sad place to live.

i know, its very residential and whenever i pass by think of the terrible sadness there, i hope they pull it down as dont imagine anyone wanting to live there if it was converted to apartments!
im so sorry for your daughter and your sadness x

 

[they'll get you]

i know, its very residential and whenever i pass by think of the terrible sadness there, i hope they pull it down as dont imagine anyone wanting to live there if it was converted to apartments!
im so sorry for your daughter and your sadness x

The old coroners court is on Parramatta Road but the access to the morgue is behind that on a narrow little laneway with parallel parking, the houses seem so very close because you sit facing front doors as you gather your strength to drive away.
Thank you bear for you kindness, time only heals for one so young.

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[Ariona]

Thanks Ariona.

Here is the link for anyone who hasn't listened

https://www.***********.au/podcasts/no-filter/

This is a good podcast ( I hadn't listened to it till now ) .

CO does a good job of describing Mr Chapmans situation & why people think he is credible despite not going to the police

Not a worry, I wasn’t sure if people were aware or would be interested so thanks for sharing the link. It was quite interesting and easy to listen to.

 

[SouthAussie]

If you wanted to carry gossip then a postie certainly could if they were inclined as you could hear it all if you wanted to listen.
When you’re a postie you could be a lonely old person’s lifeline to the world. If they wanted to chat I’d always stop and talk about the weather with them, they’d ask me in for a cuppa or a cold drink but they’d understand I’d have to be on my way but I never considered that harrassment but maybe some precious thinking person might.

Though I do think Savage wanted a bit more than a cuppa and a chat with postie, and I feel that she would have needed proof of stalking, and probably some witnesses, to be granted a PVO.


She claimed to police that Savage had formed an obsession with her, making repeated unwanted romantic gestures including blowing kisses in her direction.
The woman was granted a personal violence order in April 2013, which prevented him from approaching or contacting her ...
Revealed: Man Questioned Over William Tyrrell Breached Restraining Order

 

[Green beans]

Than the next day in PS's evidence in summing up the evidence from previous day

C: At 10:37 or 10:38 H left for bingo

PS: Approx yes

C: You were outside , you went to see her off

C: at 10:41 you made another call according to phone records, to a diagnostic x-ray place. Do you re-call that?

PS : No

C: It was just a short call.

C: At 10:50 AMS comes to the door, tells you a little boy was missing

PS : Yes

C: You than went up to see FGM?

PS: Yes

C: You said you went to back verandah. Did you hear anything a making your way.....

PS: Not that I remember

C: Anyone calling out WT name?

PS: Not that I remember

C: Evidence we heard back in March this year, MFC got back @ 10:35, he was told WT was missing & took off searching, yelling out "William" & other witnesses saw hm running & calling out in a really frantic way, so you are saying you didn't hear any of that?

PS: No

C: So you were out the back near little verandah ( at FGM house ) while you were there spoke to FFC you say & you didn't hear anybody calling out for William?

PS : No I didn't

C: When you left your house before you went to FGM's did you turn the radio off, lock house?

PS : No I went straight up, didn't lock house as BIL was arriving

The radio.. PS says he hurried and waved H off at 10.38 as she was going to be late for bingo. He had the radio loud was this to hide MFC frantic calling out for William from H? ( MFC arrived at 10.35 and took off searching and calling for William) was ps hoping H wouldn’t hear or she’d not leave?

 

[Warshawski]

Since 1980 ...... argh

Mr Chapman retired to Kendall, where he raises chooks and judges flower shows............................................

“I used to work on the counter in the post office at Wollongong, and I saw this codger walk past so I just got on the phone and rang the police station, and I just said, is Ruth Styles on duty?

NoCookies | The Australian
William Tyrrell disappearance: Ronald Chapman waited for a knock on the door



1980 he would have only been about 40ish. Young to retire.
Wonder if he changed occupations or remained a postal worker once relocating to Kendall from presumably Wollongong?

My weird brain latches on to recurring themes
the postie, postie vehicles, postie sounds, post offices, postal workers;
vehicles, cars (white, blue, green - sedan, van, station wagon, 4wd - has their been a ute ?);
speeding - out of town, around Chapman's corner - reported above burnout marks on same corner . Perhaps Chapman used to those occurances, used to all types & scenarios & hence why the Child in Spiderman suit took a long time register as being significant ? ?
People - so much confusion;

 

[Green beans]

I attended the morgue there exactly three years ago now and you had to go into the back entrance of the old Coroners Court which was on a narrow little leafy street with pretty little houses there.
While consoling my grieving daughter and remember a fleeting though of what a sad place to live.

I’m so sorry for your loss TGY.

 

[deugirtni]

BBM And yet he also told the inquest that she was inside getting dressed. IMO.

Can't believe a word he says. IMO.

There's an old saying that to be a good liar you have to have a good memory. Perhaps selective memory is a way around that. IMO.

To me, I don't think it is fair to imply PS is a liar. It seems obvious to me that the man is in one stage or another of some type of dementia, and who knows how long it has been going on. I don't think it was fair to have even put him on the stand under the circumstances, and instead, they should have relied on his statements made at the time. Surely if there are questions *now* about any statements or actions he made at the time, police would have questioned him and his wife on them, also at the time? If not, why not? Surely five years ago would have been the time to do this, if he was a highly suspected POI?

I have often from the beginning wondered why not a word had been said quoting FGM, and she has also not appeared at the Inquest - which to me is completely bizarre, considering she was one of only two adults present at the time. Media at the time did not seem to publish a thing from her in the way of quotes or statements and there seemed to be nothing ever said about that. I have speculated in my head all along that the reason was because of the same type of issue, especially given her age at the time and it was said she had been convalescing from a recent surgery at the time, etc., which I know can throw older people 'off' in some cases in perhaps unexpected ways. I thought perhaps police and family were protective of her for that very reason, and not wanting her to start waves of gossip and speculation if she may have said something completely out in left field, or contradicting things, etc. I couldn't think of any other reason why she would have been completely left out of things the way that she has been, imo. We have since heard more recently that she did make statements to police, so I'm not so sure any more, since the things quoted seemed reasonable, but it seemed perfectly logical to me for a long time, and as I understand it, a person can kind of *float* (that's maybe not the right word?) in and out of dementia, it's not necessarily always the same level, ie someone may seem to be talking as normal, and then suddenly come out with a 'humdinger' to show they're not really with it at all.

I'm thinking it may have been charitable to have given PS perhaps the same consideration, unless there was something to show that he was perfectly lucid at all times except when being questioned, or there was some kind of evidence linking him to William or his abduction or something. All that has registered with me to date about him is that he may have heard the kids, his regular morning walk was longer than usual, he was home at the time W was said to have disappeared, his deck may have had a view of FGM's house, he dropped his personal plans during the hoopla on the street so he could help his neighbour out by searching, he had overnight houseguests arriving 2-3 hours after W's stated disappearance time, he seemed to be aware of the time his wife left for her regular Friday bingo hobby (which was almost the same time), and he cooperated with police numerous times allowing them impromptu searches of his home, and participating in interviews/statements. To me, that just isn't cutting it to place him as a prime suspect for kidnapping a toddler for god knows what reason.

All my own thoughts.

 

[Warshawski]

South Aussie and everyone ,sorry for breaking the thread I saw your earlier post,just been catching up as my notifications got spam and I was unable to keep up. The trouble about School Holidays and family are home during the holidays. But Home leaks which CO brings up in her article, has been a problem for years with the Foster Care. There has to be a major overhaul how things are handled in all areas.
I speak from experience not on one time and quite a few times my details were leaked, also a case of a girl which I will call C.

I am saying, in this case William's families were not involed as they have been cleared by the police.
But details being leaked from Welfare files does happen and happened for years.
But yet, I admit, there were parents who tried to find their children(for good reasons) got a blank wall.
Yet others today have manage to find them, even today none thing is 100% safe .

Even in Social Media, the Foster Family Details, Business Facebook have been revealed in certain groups. I even receive a text on my mobile over a year ago, claiming this was the details Of William FF.
I did not check it I just deleted text but I was stunned about it.

I will explain in my case( I am only going on my case from Records and siblings told me)
My parent, leaves myself and siblings in a children home. Welfare agrees parent unsuitable/unsafe has an anti social disorder finds in past records in other states parent is abusive, neglectful has committed on many times fraud we are sent to our Grandparents (Parent finds us within 6 months, siblings removed from Grandparents few years later we are separated.)
Go to Foster family J( Parent finds me) Two years moved to Children's Home, Parent Finds me) moved to another Home( Parent finds me)this time Welfare orders Parent away. Sent to another Foster Family Q although uses the Foster Family name Q, Parent finds me within two months tell FFQ interesting stories about me it makes my life hell. After a time I leave them move to a new home. After this, Parent goes off looking for other siblings and stirs up trouble for them and leaves me alone. About Foster Family Q, well parent and I were in contact in the mid 90's briefly,parent brought up FFQ( I never talked about them) due to a crime which was committed near my former Foster family Q home made hints of their involment. Contacted other siblings compared notes, we ended our contact with parent.
The girl who I shall call C, was a much tragic case happened much later than my history, I know her story due to the fact we were in the same home and today being part of a group who experiences in Homes and Welfare we do talk and share our history. She founded a support group in Western Australia due to what happened to her, she has retired moved inter state she was left very upset about the WA Redress and aftermath so I don't know what she is doing now, however the tragic event was in the Newspapers but her story at the time was left out.
C was a teenager who kept running away from home, the reason was she was being Sexually Abused by her Step Father, she listed as uncontrollable she was placed into a home, step father kept turning up, she moved to series of Foster homes, the Step father kept turning up , she tried to explain no one listened. Finally she was put in a home which he could not get access to her, again she tried to tell she was badly let down. Sometime in the home, her Mother contacted C telling her that she believed C as she just caught her Stepfather abusing her younger sibling. Mother was making arrangements for C to come home after she filed charges and seperation papers against the Step father. It never happened, the Stepfather shot and killed C Mother outside the Courthouse( was in the Newpapers) the home and welfare did not inform the police about the sexual abuse of both children. So the reporting at the time was he killed his wife in a fit of rage as she had left him. He served time, over 15 years before being deported to his birthplace.
C tried sometime ago to get her records,due to it nature she had to go through court, all she got was barely a few pages,rest of the records been destroyed or missing.

Hi Shadow, what a powerful poste & I applaud your bravery for speaking out re your story & also on behalf of C. My very best wishes to you both - are you ok really ? Chat if you wish

IMO the Real & Genuine care & welfare re our children & dis-advantaged is so very lacking in our society & IMO it'll take a lot of guts & determination to turn that around. .. How about it ScoMo - God Forbid & Please Not - But what if one of yours may one day be in a similar position !

Those comments are not in anyway discounting the efforts of our passionate & caring 'on the ground' social & family care workers, nor the genuine home & care givers that selflessly & tirelessly Strive against all odds, to Make a Difference. Such Good People who I'm in awe of, but do sadly let down by the others, and by the Systems (judicial & otherwise) by which they have to work - ScoMo ?

Digressing now to the various scenarios suggested re William's disappearance:

It had nothing to do with him being a Foster Child:
I'd suggest that if he wasn't a Foster Child he wouldn't have been in a that vicinity.

It was a spur-of -the moment opportunistic occurrence
Really - how many people live & traverse that road on any normal day ? Should be any easy analysis ...

It was a Bio-Family Grab due to impending adopting procedures
Genuine public knowledge re an 'impending adoption' is scant, however there's been some comment from BM of something that they were trying to prevent.

Such a tangled Web - I just pray for all concerned, and most especially for guidance for our investigating team that they can provide the answers. A little child must be safe. And as a society IMO we must ensure the punishment fits the crime. I say - on the Ant Hill !

Also I pray that time will come when the members of our society actually get to have a voice in determining the nurturing of the values that are so precious to the safety & security of our People / Society.

Join me please if you wish, in what ever form your personal prayer takes, and to whoever or whatever is your personal go-to :
with focus now on the face of that precious little boy as he plays in the pure and honest abandonment of one so young & innocent - please, please most holy, supporting & forgiving of our human failings & mortality, please look with your loving kindness upon William & his family, and upon the members of the investigation team, that they may find answers the for his disappearance & bring those responsible to justice.

Thank you

 

[Warshawski]

Something to think about is Feb 2014.
FGM's hubby died in Feb 2014.
Savage was arrested and charged for breaching the AVO against him for stalking the postie also, in Feb 2014.

I can't help but wonder if the delivery of sympathy cards, and perhaps flowers, to FGM at that time had postie in the area of Savage's house at that time. Hence, the breach of the AVO came about - with Savage waiting around for her daily delivery. And perhaps FGM (and/or FPs) getting somewhat involved - asking Savage to leave postie alone, being a recorded witness for the police.

As Shadow said, if 'Lindsey' had been alone for a short period that morning would it have been her that was taken instead? Did which child it was matter, or did it just matter that hurt was inflicted on that family?

Uumm.. food for though SA, mostly re the AVO breach.

However I struggle to see a tie-in to William (or an L or otherwise intent for that matter )