Austria - Thomas Plamberger leaves gf, Kerstin Gurtner to freeze to death on Austria's tallest mountain - charged with manslaughter - Jan.19/2025

[LadyL]

Can it really?
Sure, making videos, even taking pictures (if you want to have them as good as possible) is time consuming, but how much of a delay may be explained this way? One hour? Two hours? It would ten times better movie if he turned back and either explained why it was necessary or had that + another attempt, with earlier start and better weather.
What use anyone can really have of a video that shows dangerous, reckless, unnecessary life threatening climbing pushed forward? Other climbers and climbing enthusiasts wouldnt be thrilled seeing that. If anything, they would get angry that he gives them a bad rep.

Even stuff as "crazy" as urban climbing has to have a skill and reasoning withing the crazyness of this activity itself to really catch up with people longtime. Otherwise people are jest getting scared and angry, they dont stick around.

I dont think that they bailed at the Breakfast spot. It wouldnt took them that long to descend from there I think. Unless they werent there as "early" as 1:30 PM, but how many totally crazy climbers we can expect to be there on that day specifically, choosing the longest hardest route in January?
It (IMO of course, all IMO) would have to be people who went up earlier, got stuck and descended from somewhere higher - and maybe not that much higher, but higher nonetheless, or members of same group.

That "head" is a size of a human. Possibly bigger. Its not high res enough to really spot a person, especially that route is mostly hidden behind these stones, on the northern slope.

Shoes are enough to make such difference. Snowboarding shoes arent made to keep feet warm for 12+hours, and experiencing pain (highely expected from climbing in them) would make Kerstin more prone to cold and exhaustion.

I dont think so. That kind of scheme would be too risky. And would require him being not only aware of the surveillance but analyzing and understanding it so well to be able to use that while messing up with lights during the climb...
Not totally, absolutely impossible but a rabbithole without solid reason to consider that it may be the case.
Allegedly they were seen. And they had to be somewhere there cause Kerstin was 100% found 50m below the summit.
Seeing/not seeing the headlights or one of them doesnt mean it wasnt there, too many stones everywhere, some expert level analysis with much better data would be required to really tell.
Im not even trying to do that.

BUT
Thomas's story is that he didnt tried to alert the second heli, which clearly went there FOR them cause the climb was going well.
Surveillance's story disagrees. We can see how they were slowly progressing up... between 18:10 and... basically 21:00.

View attachment 631239

Between 21:00 and 22:00 it doesnt seem like theyve progressed much.

View attachment 631244

And on the second cam we can see - thats same moment, both pics from 22:00 but different cams.
22:30 - next to no progress. But not only compared to 22:00 - also compared to 21:00

View attachment 631245

Thomas claims that he hasnt tried to alert the heli cause they kept climbing.
And maybe they did, maybe that part was super challenging - how THAT makes in unworthy to call for help thats just below them its not that relevant in this context.
He claims that Kerstin started feeling unwell as heli left.
So 23:30? And he doesnt call or try to call for an hour waiting for what?
Impared judgement? Okay, maybe. But then he calls. Not as weather cleared, as weather got worse.
Maybe that was the point when he got scared. Okay, lets consider that for a sec.
He calls and claims that as he learns that they cant send a heli again cause weather is too bad.
I can understand turning phone on silent while climbing, cause in such circumstances the last thing you would want WHILE CLIMBING would be to get distracted by sudden ringtone and to have it use your battery, sure.

BUT.
He claims that they decided to keep moving to not get colder. After the call. But that call was at 00:35
BUT they were barely moving for over 3 hours at this point.
And at another point in time he claims that he, pardon me again, "Kerstin urged him to go" right after that call... to climb up, descend and CALL. While at no point he was trying to call again or waiting for calls, phone on silent right away or all the time.

So basically, with everything that can be even slightly verifiable, his claims are not supported by surveillance.

I don't see any light at 2030 hours.

thank you for these excellent posts!

 

[sunspun]

Possibly I'm not thinking about this correctly, but wouldn't it have been better for him if she HAD already died before he left her? I mean, if that's what he told authorities afterward?

I think it makes him look better if he said he stayed with her, because she was having so much trouble that she could no longer move, until she eventually died. Then he left her, of course. With the plan to alert authorities of her whereabouts once he was safely down.

 

[RedHaus]

Possibly I'm not thinking about this correctly, but wouldn't it have been better for him if she HAD already died before he left her? I mean, if that's what he told authorities afterward?

I think it makes him look better if he said he stayed with her, because she was having so much trouble that she could no longer move, until she eventually died. Then he left her, of course. With the plan to alert authorities of her whereabouts once he was safely down.

In a way, yes.

If KG had died by 2:00am and TP left to save himself, and he told authorities that, he would not have to explain why he didn't call (or recall) for help for KG between 2:00am and 3:30am.

But IMO, he'd still need to explain everything else, including why the Bivvy and Thermal Blankets weren't used to try and keep KG from dying of hypothermia. And why no frantic calls for help.

That to me is the most damning inaction.

 

[LadyL]

Possibly I'm not thinking about this correctly, but wouldn't it have been better for him if she HAD already died before he left her? I mean, if that's what he told authorities afterward?

I think it makes him look better if he said he stayed with her, because she was having so much trouble that she could no longer move, until she eventually died. Then he left her, of course. With the plan to alert authorities of her whereabouts once he was safely down.

but didn't he ask for rescue? not retrieval? I'm not sure that's just what I read we need to know exactly what he said to them

 

[LadyL]

In a way, yes.

If KG had died by 2:00am and TP left to save himself, and he told authorities that, he would not have to explain why he didn't call (or recall) for help for KG between 2:00am and 3:30am.

But IMO, he'd still need to explain everything else, including why the Bivvy and Thermal Blankets weren't used to try and keep KG from dying of hypothermia. And why no frantic calls for help.

That to me is the most damning inaction.

and not waving at the helicopters or answering his phone earlier
it's all damning IMO

 

[beubeubeu]

Also, Kerstin had been doing rock climbing, with ropes and gear, since at least 2020.

No, she wasnt.
Unless youre referring to something else than Lamsenspitze through Brudertunnel in September 2020 where she wears a helmet.
Thats "B" on a scale of Alps difficulty (C if the trail is wet and not in good, summer conditions). So thats "moderate".
Many people climb that without anything, since its mostly challenging hike + 450m of climbing along metal wires and through metal steps.
On these climbing/hiking websites its recommended to wear a helmet and hip belt to pin yourself to the metal wires along the way so in case of slipping you wont fall. Thats far from climbing with ropes and is just another example of her being responsible and well prepared.

Most of it in dry weather conditions, but at least one high snowy peak before starting climbing with TP.

Snowy peak where? I see Watzmann and Grosses Wiesbachhor, both hard hiking trails. No "rock climbing" but hiking with small parts of these routes being these metal steps in stone, holding onto a thick metal wire. Both climbed in the most reasonable time of the year, dressed appropriately.

I don't see any light at 2030 hours.

Cause through one cam there is no light at 20:30

But there is a light, even bit more than expected lights on Adler's cam:

 

[beubeubeu]

Possibly I'm not thinking about this correctly, but wouldn't it have been better for him if she HAD already died before he left her? I mean, if that's what he told authorities afterward?

I think it makes him look better if he said he stayed with her, because she was having so much trouble that she could no longer move, until she eventually died. Then he left her, of course. With the plan to alert authorities of her whereabouts once he was safely down.

No. That would very strongly indicate that he ignored very bad situation for quite a bit.
23:00 all good, we werere climbing, no rescue needed, and about 2 hours later shes dead. Nope.
That would totally fly if the risk was mostly unforeseen and if that whole climb was reasonable. Or if there was no other way for them but to keep climbing in the darkness cause no phone reception and some total wilderness kind of circumstances + sudden weather change or something like that.

Apart from the fact that he violated basic human empathy, first aid rules, mountain safety and reason, hes looking as good as possible.
He didnt alerted the heli to waste rescue resources as they werent needed!
He called right after she felt bad and couldnt climb anymore!
He figured that since no heli will show up hes gonna go and bring/push for rescue for her by himself, like a hero.

 

[beubeubeu]

and not waving at the helicopters or answering his phone earlier
it's all damning IMO

What is even more damning, as I learned by digging through these websites that provide descriptions and all possible info required for hiking, climbing and wintersport expeditions - there is no shortage of challenging options that people have while starting from Kals. And I mean apart from well mantained, official routes where you can take your small kids on, or bit more experienced teens.

There are mountains who are RIGHT THERE and as-or-MORE accessible than Grossglockner that require much less dangerous, demanding and exhausting climb.
* - we're still talking January: so not like totally safe, not just challenging and "moderate" - still pretty hard, still requiring a lot of experience, strength and endurance and rather dangerous.
And these mountains are offering much better, longer and safer ski routes down than Grossglockner does. These are not like regular skiing routes but people ski there and its not crazy to do that.

So, apart from everything - its just ultimately bizarre.
Even the fact that they tried is bizarre.
Apart from freehand climb on Hoher Goell that Thomas allegedly surprised her with Kerstin seemed to be always dressed appropriately to the trip. This time she wasnt.

And he was very familiar with the area. Not only with Gross but with other summits as well. So it could not be brushed off as some of the dangerous escapades are, where people set themselves hard on one specific goal, made some plan, fell off with time by few hours and in their minds they had only an option to turn away or try so theyve made their decision: to go or to turn back - cause they didnt knew that there is this gorgeous, easy to follow trail over here that takes just few hours and thats also an option.
He had more options. Not only:
a) go for it,
b) turn back,
and
c) go for it but through normal route
but also:
d) e) f) g) h) and so on - to go, do some climbing and some snowboarding.
If the goal was to do some climbing and some snowboarding they could just switch their destination to something more reasonable timewise and safetywise.

So why not...
Oh wait. Right. Cause if with whatever loony reason he set himself hard on climbing Gross through Studlgrat this time of year and he didnt care that much about Kerstin having fun then yup, why go elsewhere where it'd be less climbing time, more snowfun time if he wouldnt be the one having the latter. Yup.

 

[beubeubeu]

There was 100% helicopter flying right there at 20:30.

Look how it looked like at 23:30 when we can be 100% sure the heli was there:

vs. what we can see 20:30:

That heli is not going there for them but its passing the mountain on its Nothern side. So some attempts at alerting them by "blinking" with headlamps could be made.
They not only werent made, but according to Thomas, "werent needed".

 

[beubeubeu]

There were 100% other people climbing Grossglockner via Studlgrat on 18th of January 2025.
And either those people are some ultimate loons who started climbing late afternoon or they:
a) passed Kerstin & Thomas on their way up
b) were part of their group that parted ways.

Once again:

Here in red circle: thats no random dot of light, thats headlamp (and that dot in green circle is just a star)

(the only reason why Im providing this, very eye-challenging collection of dots on black is to show that theyre no random dots)

This I showed before, right?

Well, lo and behold, look here, thats 18:10 and thats where Kerstin & Thomas are:

Thats 18:20:

 

[beubeubeu]

And not only that, theyre visible as early as 18:00:

That red dot is where Kerstin & Thomas are at that point.
So no way they came together and parted at the breakfast spot cause that IS where the "breakfast spot" is.

Even more so. Cause I clicked and clicked through all these cams that are pointing at Studlgrat and normal route on Gross and well... cant rule out that my eyes gave up at some point and Ive missed something but basically good luck for anyone trying to finding other headlamp lights there at night.
People seem to climb and summit all times of year as they are visible standing next to the cross on the cam with zoom but apart from that its freaking rare.
Ive found some people descending via normal route on November 17th - but theyre below the Adlershhutte already.
Apart from that on December 1st someone summited sometime between 17:40 and 17:50... (and it took them about an hour to descend through the Kleinglockner and down the most risky-stony part of it)
December 19th 2023 - several people are descending from Klein right after sundown.
January 28th 2024 - someone is descending from Klein, but they made it through the most dangerous parts before sundown.

Apart from these examples - I had no luck spotting nighttime climbers. So I dare to assume that basically doesnt happen in winter on Grossglockner.

Back to our headlamps. Thats where they are at 18:00 (6:00 PM) - and the red dot is exactly where Kerstin & Thomas are at the time.

So... was there something super specific about January 18th 2025 that two separate "groups" one of which was a couple and the other may be two or more people decided to keep climbing on way past reasonable time which led them to dangerous descends in darkness despite of it seemingly happening rarer than once a month during winter?

Cause if not thats one hell of a coincidence.
They are at Fruh at 18:00. So what? They climbed it after sundown? Waited there? Had a goal to climb to Fruh super late and go back?
And then they HAVENT looked back as they safely got to the snowy part?
Sure yeah, in case that they somehow started their climb afternoon. They couldnt see the higher parts of the mountain from there. Even if they did, with all these stones Thomas's and Kerstin's headlamps could be obscured.
But what about later? They DIDNT look back, not for a moment, just kept going?
That kinda goes against basic human reflexes in my opinion. Are people able to resist that? Seriously? Stretched odds at best.
Even in the Bible we have four people running away from Sodom, three resisted that urge to look back, one didnt. I was always under impression that story resonates with people so well cause its very easily understandable that it would be very hard to overcome and not look back in somewhat similar circumstances.
Arent people always doing that? Turning back to look at the scary/dangerous thing they just avoided? Im not saying staring at it for five minutes or looking back every few minutes. But not once? Neither of these people? Not once they looked at Gross during these at least 1,5-2 hours when they could see the mountain? These spots where they are going through are visible from the Studlgrat, so they should also be visible the other way round, right?

How these people's actions make sense as well?
If they were Thomas's and Kerstin's companions - wouldnt any normal person think that it may be a good idea to call rescue services?
Maybe not exactly screaming that oh God, my friend got totally crazy, hes dragging his girlfriend up the Grossglockner via Studlgrat at this hour, you have to rescue them!
But making them aware of the situation? To maybe keep their eyes on the situation, try to reach them?
Even more so if they werent their friends. Isnt "we see people climbing grossglockner, we dont know whats going on there but we see headlamps"?

How many of these odd coincidences and bizarre decisions coming from multiple people who were on same location during events that led to somebodys death we can really have?

Better overview of these people's descend:

This is all from Kalserthal's cam.

 

[beubeubeu]

According to this website: UIAA Grades of Difficulty in Rock Climbing

UIAA Grade	Level (Lower/Upper)	Grade	Description of UIAA Grades
Ⅰ	– +	First grade	It is the easiest kind of scramble. Frequent use of hands is required to support balance and hand and foot-holds must be trusted
Ⅱ	– +	Second grade	Here real climbing begins, that requires the movement of a limb at a time and a proper setting of the movements. Holds and supports are still abundant
Ⅲ	– +	Third grade	The rock structure, already more steep or even vertical, offers holds and supports the rarest and can already require the use of force. Typically the passages are not solved yet in an obliged manner

And this is the topographic map of the Studlgrat route (source):

50 m below the summit is exactly there:

Its right above the absolute hardest part of the whole trail where you have to pull yourself up using a piece of rope and metal wire thats hanging there.
Neither watching videos or looking at that leaves me with conclusion that the remaining part was the easiest or easy.
Easier if compared to what you have to pass on 3748m, not compared to what you had to pass before that.

As bad of a place to lie there it is, there is enough "space" to lie down there.

And its not like climb up to the Frushtucksplazerl is "easy".
Rinnenkammin has 2+ grade.

"Here real climbing begins, that requires the movement of a limb at a time and a proper setting of the movements. Holds and supports are still abundant" - thats the description, just bit harder, cause it has a +.

I dont know why Im doing this. Its not making it any more understandable WHY on Earth did Thomas may think thats a good idea to take her there. In January. And keep dragging her up knowing thats gonna turn into night climb.
He knew whats there for God's sake.
Some sources count that as -4 actually.

Back to UIAA scale:

Ⅳ

– +

Fourth grade

Holds and supports become more rare and / or small. It requires a good climbing technique applied to the various rock structures (chimneys, crevices, corners, etc.) as well as a certain degree of specific training

And this is normal route in comparison:

 

[RedHaus]

50 m below the summit is exactly there:

RSBM
You're doing some fantastic alp8ne research, @beubeubeu. I am trying to keep up! On this bit, wasn't KG found on a Snow Ramp per the recent reporting on TP's prosecution? That seems more like 50 verticle meters from the summit...

 

[georgiajean]

From Kerstin's IG: Login • Instagram
In Aug 2022 she climbed her first over 3000m peak. So she experienced the altitude. Not technical gear climb.

then her social media shows peak running, hiking adventures on 2000m -3,000 m peaks until 2024, when she starts posting ascents with Thomas.

March 2024 ascent of Hoher Dachstein a 2995 m peak, in winter conditions. Clipping in to metal cables or roped to Thomas.

April 2024 Tinselweed, significant rock face climbing, clipping in to metal cables on rock face.

3 peaks in 3 days, roped to Thomas.

 

[beubeubeu]

RSBM
You're doing some fantastic alp8ne research, @beubeubeu. I am trying to keep up!

As good as I can.
Wont be anywhere as good as if it came from someone who actually saw that area but...

I wonder if there is any odd chance that these people were coming from somewhere else.
They seem to be going somewhere there (screen from gsv)

But what's there? Poschlturm?

Im not 100% sure theyre going down via Studlgrat but from where may be coming people who are going there if not from Grossglockner?
They just happened to randomly wander around ice snowy slopes in January?
Also Poschlturm is even HARDER to climb than Grossglockner.

As Im looking at it now it kinda looks like theyre going down via Nordwestgrad (pic source)

And that would mean that I was WRONG about them possibly meeting Kerstin and Thomas but that still holds on the question: what on Earth brought all these people to that mountain on that day and kept them there for so long? Much longer than it ever happens?
Its not like weather was so horribly bad. Wasnt good either but Nordwestgrad is even harder to climb than Studlgrat.

The absolute hardest is number 6. Glocknerwand. IV+

Nordwestgrad is IV-

Studlgrat III+

NEITHER of these tree is a route anyone would choose to descend through unless having some hard set goal to do it this way specifically.
But thats super hard and super rare. Super rare summertime not to mention winter.

Im digging myself a rabbithole?

No headlamps in that area after dark as far as I was able to click and notice.
What Ive found was only along the normal route.
Then we have January 18th 2025.
Sundown sets and we have Kerstin & Thomas stuck on Studlgrat AND people who are descending, for hours, either from Studlgrat or from even MORE challenging route.
And basically no matter where they came from - they were still descending for two hours after dark, having headlamps below the summit sight if they turned back... and either they didnt or didnt felt like its emergency? Didnt have phones?

This is so so super weird.

 

[beubeubeu]

On this bit, wasn't KG found on a Snow Ramp per the recent reporting on TP's prosecution? That seems more like 50 verticle meters from the summit...

Its there. Its right there. That super hard thing 3+/4- and plateau and rampe.
Several spots are called plateau/rampe and even that rampe from the sketch isnt far from 3+/4- spot.
Also could be that she was actually found 49 or 47m below the summit and they werent that detailed with measures.

 

[beubeubeu]

From Kerstin's IG: Login • Instagram
In Aug 2022 she climbed her first over 3000m peak. So she experienced the altitude. Not technical gear climb.
View attachment 631750

then her social media shows peak running, hiking adventures on 2000m -3,000 m peaks until 2024, when she starts posting ascents with Thomas.

JFTR I wasnt strongly debating your earlier post in the mood of how could someone write something like that:

Kerstin had been doing rock climbing, with ropes and gear, since at least 2020. Most of it in dry weather conditions, but at least one high snowy peak before starting climbing with TP.

I was strongly reacting to the fact that people are arguing that she actually was well experienced and climbed for years before.
Which, if true (and its not) would work slightly in Thomas's ideas and decisions favor, making it less evil and insane.
He does not deserve that. In my opinion.

Also IMO there was no way Kerstin could climb Studlgrat by herself in January. Especially not by January at night.
No way that she could be leading the way for him.

So he wasnt just randomly deemed a decisionmaking half of the couple cause he had bit more experience or was a male as some people may be getting from these poor, poor coverages of the story that seem to be all over the place.
They were not equal as he tries to push on.
He was 100% the guide and decision making part of this two (or more) person's trip.

Also: Dachstein is at most challenging route up classified as II on same scale where Studlgrat is III+.

This should absolutely NOT give anyone an impression that she was anywhere close to experienced enough to go on two person January climb via Studlgrat in decent weather during the day, not to mention night.

Considering how far she went and in what hellish circumstances I would bet everything that if she ever had a chance to continue climbing and learning, in 2-3 years she'd become even better climber than he is. So after two full winter seasons of doing reasonable, moderate climbs IN GROUPS made of more people than Thomas, in 1,5-2,5 years he could say that they were equal.
Not in January 2025.