Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[MissJames]

Wouldn't it make more sense that KC had rage building up? A probable argument with Cindy ,Caylee only wants Cindy,she wants a sticker and starts tantruming.KC says" here,I'll give you a sticker!" and places the tape over Caylee's mouth,then the sticker.Caylee continues with muffled screams and maybe kicking,so KC places more tape over Caylee's nose,CUZ SHE JUST CAN"T TAKE IT ANYMORE.
And now it's all Caylee's fault for fussing and wanting Cindy,and Cindy's fault for becoming a mother figure to Caylee.And Georges fault because he has caused so much stress in the family.
Something along that scenario makes more sense to me than KC puttiing tape on a dead or decomposing Caylee.I mean,stuff comes out of a lot more than just the mouth and nose after death[sorry].
Maybe she was ticked because no one would answer her calls. She wanted to go out ,but was stuck with Caylee[on the 16th].Caylee was chattering away and KC was already worked up because she was being ignored.Out comes the tape.
There are a number of scenarios we could come up with.Maybe since she couldn't get a babysitter she taped Caylee's mouth and put her in the trunk so she could go to TL's.Caylee kept making noise and kicking so she put tape over her nose.I see KC doing it in a fit of anger.
I'm hoping the SA can piece it all together,but I just don't get the tape after death theory.JMHO

 

[Theonly1]

FWIW, I thought "hair mats" were pretty common in decomposing humans left in outdoor environments. Especially if the hair was tied in a pony-tail or something.

 

[MissJames]

I hope you don't think my was directed at your comments JBean - it was to indicate my feelings on KC's lies.

I think the problem is that in any case were someone tries to deny knowledge of, or involvement in another's death, and then later claims that it was an accident, the veil of suspicion is already drawn over them by their very act of evasiveness or deceit, but in some cases their actions really could have been driven by panic, or because of either some actual or just perceived/imagined culpability, or just because they feared they wouldn't be believed.

I haven't read up on the case you refer to, but would be interested to know whether it's the fact that he clearly lied that persuades you that he is guilty of murder, or if there is other clear evidence that it was unlikely to have been an accident.

How big a part does our emotional and psychological reaction to deceit, and society's shared abhorrence for liars, play in our evaluation of the evidence before us, and how much of our opinion forming is based on logical and impartial analysis and how much on societal or personal influence? I think it's impossible to be totally impartial and unaffected emotionally and still be called human, and that presents a major flaw in jury based justice systems IMO. Until we can try people before a panel of robots or by connecting them up to some sort of 'truth' extractor, then I think there will always be some convictions based more on our emotional responses than on the actual facts.

Hmm....well I seem to be warbling on here :talker: and drifting aimlessly into a state of totally OT musing. :bang:

Time to hit the sack I think, so you can delete my OT ramblings while I'm sending up the zzzzzzzz's and I'll be none the wiser in the morning! :waitasec: :hypno:

It's called our Hinky Meter ,Devon! But we could also think of it as common sense. IMO

 

[pferrin]

Hi my first time posting on Caylees murder. After reading autopsy and all your info ..right now I believe she was placed in the trunk, which acted as her babysitter, while Casey went out with boyfriend. She died in the trunk..heat ...not enough O2..chloroform?.mom smothering her....definitely no love and lots of heart break. No matter how I replay all the details it always adds up to murder. The duct tape..well I'm not sure the role that it plays in the actual murder..more will be revealed. Thank yall so much for all of your insight.

 

[ShadowGal]

Hi my first time posting on Caylees murder. After reading autopsy and all your info ..right now I believe she was placed in the trunk, which acted as her babysitter, while Casey went out with boyfriend. She died in the trunk..heat ...not enough O2..chloroform?.mom smothering her....definitely no love and lots of heart break. No matter how I replay all the details it always adds up to murder. The duct tape..well I'm not sure the role that it plays in the actual murder..more will be revealed. Thank yall so much for all of your insight.

Glad you're here and contributing. There are many wonderful, dedicated sleuthers on the Caylee case. I glean what I can, contribute once in a while, and continue to hope and pray for justice for little Caylee. I agree with you that there is no escaping that little Caylee was murdered.

 

[JWG]

Just throwing some observations out there that I hope will contribute to this great conversation. :twocents:

There were three pieces found over the mouth :silenced:, and all were sent to the FBI. This was detailed in earlier dumps that included the OCSO to FBI evidence sheets.

The type of Henkel's tape used is a (approximate) 2" wide tape. :detective:

3 pieces of 2" wide tape on a toddler's face tells me that both the mouth and nose were to be covered, and the examiner's report confirms that. :furious:

The matting of hair was due to hair falling off the skull as it decomposed, and weather (rain, basically), tamping it down into the ground. If anyone has ever stumbled across the remains of a furry animal in the woods, they will know what a hair mat looks like. It had nothing to do with what happened leading up to death. :cry:

On another thread we have been discussing the chloroform in the trunk. To me, the final reports are pretty clear that the chloroform was unusually high and was not the result of cleaning supplies interacting with each other. It would appear that KC really did use chloroform on her daughter.

My personal opinion (full disclosure: it changes a lot :bang - is that KC made a very small batch of chloroform. She soaked a portion of the Winnie the Pooh blanket with it and used it to render Caylee unconscious, either while Caylee was already napping or forcefully. Once Caylee was unconscious, she put duct tape over her nose and mouth to suffocate her. There was no struggle. :shakehead:

 

[impatientredhead]

Just throwing some observations out there that I hope will contribute to this great conversation. :twocents:

There were three pieces found over the mouth :silenced:, and all were sent to the FBI. This was detailed in earlier dumps that included the OCSO to FBI evidence sheets.

The type of Henkel's tape used is a (approximate) 2" wide tape. :detective:

3 pieces of 2" wide tape on a toddler's face tells me that both the mouth and nose were to be covered, and the examiner's report confirms that. :furious:

The matting of hair was due to hair falling off the skull as it decomposed, and weather (rain, basically), tamping it down into the ground. If anyone has ever stumbled across the remains of a furry animal in the woods, they will know what a hair mat looks like. It had nothing to do with what happened leading up to death. :cry:

On another thread we have been discussing the chloroform in the trunk. To me, the final reports are pretty clear that the chloroform was unusually high and was not the result of cleaning supplies interacting with each other. It would appear that KC really did use chloroform on her daughter.

My personal opinion (full disclosure: it changes a lot :bang - is that KC made a very small batch of chloroform. She soaked a portion of the Winnie the Pooh blanket with it and used it to render Caylee unconscious, either while Caylee was already napping or forcefully. Once Caylee was unconscious, she put duct tape over her nose and mouth to suffocate her. There was no struggle. :shakehead:

I agree with everything in this except for her making it. She is not smart enough to do so without knocking herself out in the process and I think there would be evidence of the chemistry experiment. She left evidence of everything (and everyone) she did. I think she had some from another source and the fight fueled her to use it.

 

[sayd]

There are a number of scenarios we could come up with.Maybe since she couldn't get a babysitter she taped Caylee's mouth and put her in the trunk so she could go to TL's.Caylee kept making noise and kicking so she put tape over her nose.I see KC doing it in a fit of anger.
I'm hoping the SA can piece it all together,but I just don't get the tape after death theory.JMHO

My granddaughter was Caylee's age at the time and I noticed that she started telling me secrets that her mom had told her not to tell me. Since Caylee had been with Cindy all day, don't you know that she told Cindy quite a bit? Then when Casey got home, Cindy was probably quite upset with all the new info. I've always contended KC was absolutely furious about it and put the duct tape on for that reason.

 

[beach]

My personal opinion (full disclosure: it changes a lot :bang - is that KC made a very small batch of chloroform. She soaked a portion of the Winnie the Pooh blanket with it and used it to render Caylee unconscious, either while Caylee was already napping or forcefully. Once Caylee was unconscious, she put duct tape over her nose and mouth to suffocate her. There was no struggle. :shakehead:

--respectfully snipped

That is exactly what I think happened, too.

 

[CentralFLMama]

I wish I could believe the chloroform was used to put her to sleep first, I have tried hard to believe that, but I have quit trying. I dunno where it came from or what it was used for, for a fact, but at a guess I would say they were using it to try to clean the trunk. None was found in Caylee's hair, which would probably be the case if it had been used to subdue her first. and if it had been used to knock her out first, a pillow would have been a more logical death weapon.
The ONLY reason for the layers of duct tape is to suffocate, and the only reason anyone would use duct tape as a weapon is to say "SHUT UP! SHUT UP FOREVER!!" and I am finally going to face the fact that is what I believe happened, the truth is the truth, no matter how much I wish the truth were something less grim.

I'm sorry to say that I agree.

 

[angeleleven]

Geraldo At Large is having a discussion Sunday night concerning the autopsy report, etc. IMO he seems to always favor the defense....therefore it may be a little upsetting to watch.

 

[USARDOG]

I'm sorry to say that I agree.

Please be kind enough not to snip off the original posters name, it makes it hard to go back and read the message in its entirety.

I do not believe chloroform would be found in her hair as stated. Hair reflects long term use, not a one time dosage. There also was no indication of Zanex in the hair, which removes speculation about Zanex being the famous Zany baby sitter. That would have been long term use and would have been evident in the tox of the hair sample.

Chloroform is a difficult cleaning agent, bleach would be far easier to obtain and use. I feel strongly that the chloroform was used to subdue Caylee before killing her by suffocation with the duct tape rapped around her mouth and nose. Agree that KC likely obtained it from outside the home, rather than her making it. I don't see her as smart enough nor patient enough to make it... Which makes this a premeditated crime...

 

[USARDOG]

Looking at the evidence I have read, as a juror I would be compelled to vote for the DP. This looks to me to be a premeditated, cold, callous killing of a defenseless child by her mother, and screams for justice. we have been over and over possible defense strategies, and as far as I can tell, there are none. Any defense work will have to be pure bull hockey, and i don't think any reasonable jury will buy it. IMO, this is what Lyons is doing on the defense team, IMO they don't think they have a chance at a not guilty verdict, but rather, are trying to save KC from the DP.

I will add, watching JB strut and grin during the trial will be pure he##, as his ego knows no bounds, and I find him more repulsive than a Texas sized rattler.

 

[TallyHo]

Just throwing some observations out there that I hope will contribute to this great conversation. :twocents:

There were three pieces found over the mouth :silenced:, and all were sent to the FBI. This was detailed in earlier dumps that included the OCSO to FBI evidence sheets.

The type of Henkel's tape used is a (approximate) 2" wide tape. :detective:

3 pieces of 2" wide tape on a toddler's face tells me that both the mouth and nose were to be covered, and the examiner's report confirms that. :furious:

The matting of hair was due to hair falling off the skull as it decomposed, and weather (rain, basically), tamping it down into the ground. If anyone has ever stumbled across the remains of a furry animal in the woods, they will know what a hair mat looks like. It had nothing to do with what happened leading up to death. :cry:

On another thread we have been discussing the chloroform in the trunk. To me, the final reports are pretty clear that the chloroform was unusually high and was not the result of cleaning supplies interacting with each other. It would appear that KC really did use chloroform on her daughter.

My personal opinion (full disclosure: it changes a lot :bang - is that KC made a very small batch of chloroform. She soaked a portion of the Winnie the Pooh blanket with it and used it to render Caylee unconscious, either while Caylee was already napping or forcefully. Once Caylee was unconscious, she put duct tape over her nose and mouth to suffocate her. There was no struggle. :shakehead:

I totally agree with you on all counts here, unless we find out some other reasonable explanation for the chloroform. And if I understand one of the experts that NG had on her show a while back, a one time chloroform event would be undetectable in the hair. The hair would have had to have grown to show any exposure to chloroform, and that obviously cannot happen when a one time exposure is simultaneous to a death. So I am going to hold on to the hope that she did use the chloroform.
I have come to the belief that her primary motivation was her fantasy of becoming Mrs. Lazzaro, who she felt was her ticket into the entertainment industry. A very important life of managing shot girls and buying cute outfits and shoes for Hot Body contests must have seemed like the promised land to her. And, why who knows, maybe one day she would have gotten a shot to sing for one of the bands he had connections to! Seems to me like it was a much bigger "prize" to me than the "life she was imagining with Brandon" that sent her over the edge just a few months prior to meeting TonE!!! And I really believe she had as a secondary motivation to spite Cindy, or else she looked at Caylee's murder as a mercy killing to spare her growing up with Cindy as a mother. ETA - add in the money (or lack thereof) pressures and the conflicts with her family about her thievery, her parenting and her partying, and you have one heck of a mess! And it obviously didn't occur to her that duct taping Caylee's mouth and nose would not look like evidence of a kidnapping. It looks like evidence of a murder.

 

[beach]

Chloroform is a difficult cleaning agent, bleach would be far easier to obtain and use. I feel strongly that the chloroform was used to subdue Caylee before killing her by suffocation with the duct tape rapped around her mouth and nose. Agree that KC likely obtained it from outside the home, rather than her making it. I don't see her as smart enough nor patient enough to make it... Which makes this a premeditated crime...

--respectfully snipped; emphasis mine--

there would be a credit card receipt somewhere if she ordered it off of the internet, right? or are you thinking someone else gave it to her? that someone else was involved?

obviously, i've never made choloform, but even KC could handle mixing a couple of liquids together. aren't the ingredients pretty easily obtained from a local grocery or hardware store?

 

[jon_burrows]

I am not in any doubt that Caylee's death was intentional. Just too many things point to it being a premeditated act, not an accident, not the least of which is the layered duct tape.
I wish I could believe the chloroform was used to put her to sleep first, I have tried hard to believe that, but I have quit trying. I dunno where it came from or what it was used for, for a fact, but at a guess I would say they were using it to try to clean the trunk. None was found in Caylee's hair, which would probably be the case if it had been used to subdue her first. and if it had been used to knock her out first, a pillow would have been a more logical death weapon.
The ONLY reason for the layers of duct tape is to suffocate, and the only reason anyone would use duct tape as a weapon is to say "SHUT UP! SHUT UP FOREVER!!" and I am finally going to face the fact that is what I believe happened, the truth is the truth, no matter how much I wish the truth were something less grim.

I also know that to subdue a child you need only place them on a bed, and straddle over their waist area, holding their arms with your knees and legs, then this leaves your hands free for (in this case) the duct tape, and the child would not be able to try to pull it off or resist whatever you might choose to do to them.
This was actually a form of non-violent intervention, out of date now, and no longer used as far as I know, but used to be used with a kid that was totally out of control and attacking people, only the hands of the adult were used to stroke their foreheads, as you talked or sang to them, until they felt calmer.

ITA-the only reason for multiple layers of duct tape was suffocation.

Just to add another scenario very close to yours---Casey could have wrapped Caylee in the pooh blanket tightly before putting the duct tape over her mouth/nose leaving her unable to free her hands to try and pull the tape off. A two year old is completely defenseless against an adult.

Most (if not all) the medical talking heads that I've heard said chloroform would not have shown up in her hair after that much time exposed to the elements, especially if she used it only once. The hair has to grow before they can see drug usage if they don't have soft tissue to examine. At least that's the way I understand it but I could be wrong.

 

[Shear22]

Just throwing some observations out there that I hope will contribute to this great conversation. :twocents:

There were three pieces found over the mouth :silenced:, and all were sent to the FBI. This was detailed in earlier dumps that included the OCSO to FBI evidence sheets.

The type of Henkel's tape used is a (approximate) 2" wide tape. :detective:

3 pieces of 2" wide tape on a toddler's face tells me that both the mouth and nose were to be covered, and the examiner's report confirms that. :furious:

The matting of hair was due to hair falling off the skull as it decomposed, and weather (rain, basically), tamping it down into the ground. If anyone has ever stumbled across the remains of a furry animal in the woods, they will know what a hair mat looks like. It had nothing to do with what happened leading up to death. :cry:

On another thread we have been discussing the chloroform in the trunk. To me, the final reports are pretty clear that the chloroform was unusually high and was not the result of cleaning supplies interacting with each other. It would appear that KC really did use chloroform on her daughter.

My personal opinion (full disclosure: it changes a lot :bang - is that KC made a very small batch of chloroform. She soaked a portion of the Winnie the Pooh blanket with it and used it to render Caylee unconscious, either while Caylee was already napping or forcefully. Once Caylee was unconscious, she put duct tape over her nose and mouth to suffocate her. There was no struggle. :shakehead:

I completely agree, and would add that this very deliberate and planned killing is very much in keeping with her June 21 diary entry (I firmly believe it was written in 2008) where she says "I completely trust my own judgment". I think this is something that she decided to do and carried out with little to no emotion, just as she lived the rest of her life.

 

[TakeNote]

ITA-the only reason for multiple layers of duct tape was suffocation.

Just to add another scenario very close to yours---Casey could have wrapped Caylee in the pooh blanket tightly before putting the duct tape over her mouth/nose leaving her unable to free her hands to try and pull the tape off. A two year old is completely defenseless against an adult.

or i was thinking ....straddle her putting weight with her knees over caylee's arms....sitting on her....and then apply the duct tape over the mouth....:furious:...if caylee was tossing her head from side to side...to struggle....it would take several peices of duct tape to get it over and onto her face and nose....untill she passed out....

 

[beach]

I completely agree, and would add that this very deliberate and planned killing is very much in keeping with her June 21 diary entry (I firmly believe it was written in 2008) where she says "I completely trust my own judgment". I think this is something that she decided to do and carried out with little to no emotion, just as she lived the rest of her life.

--emphasis mine

i firmly believe it too!

 

[USARDOG]

--respectfully snipped; emphasis mine--

there would be a credit card receipt somewhere if she ordered it off of the internet, right? or are you thinking someone else gave it to her? that someone else was involved?

obviously, i've never made choloform, but even KC could handle mixing a couple of liquids together. aren't the ingredients pretty easily obtained from a local grocery or hardware store?

Yes on all counts, but I think it possible we will hear where she got it from during the trial. We know she did research on how to make it... it is possible she made it, but I am still betting she got it from external sorces. Time will tell.