AZ AZ - Chelsea Grimm, 32, traveling from San Diego CA to CT, car found Oct 5 on Forest Rd 6 near Williams, she was last seen in Williams, 28 Sep 2023

[mcmlxxix]

Hopefully this link is good here. If it's removed you may IM me for it.

Could GPS devices be leading people to drive the wrong-way?

With the latest wrong-way crash on Wednesday, there have been nearly 30 incidents so far this year. Many drivers in the Valley have speculated why Arizona is such a problem area for this type of dangerous driving behavior.

www.abc15.com

I've heard of other instances, but don't have any MSM links, nor do I remember any of the details well enough to find them searching.

I once took a road trip thru South Dakota into Wyoming from Mt. Rushmore to Devil's Tower. I decided to cut thru the Black Hills Nat'l Forest, but Google maps led me down some dirt roads to what looked like it USED to be another dirt road but was too overgrown to drive through. As I got out to survey the area where Google was telling me to go, I noticed a hissing sound coming from my truck. Turns out I had run over a screwdriver and the metal piece went inside my tire. I had to fly down more dirt roads in a fairly random direction at that point because I was running out of time (losing air pressure) and GPS was no longer to be trusted. Luckily this was during Sturgis and a biker was able to point me in the direction of the nearest town with a tire shop.

Sharing this to point out that it's sometimes easier to get yourself into trouble WITH GPS than without it, especially if you're looking to take the scenic route. It's possible she knew she ran something over and was trying to get back to town but her tires ran flat.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

However i fo not think CG was having a GPS problem, IMO.

I agree. I cede it's possible; but I don't think it's very likely.
My gut feeling is that she was rethinking some of her life choices. Maybe the friend's wedding led to some soul searching, maybe some long conversations with the dragon while she was on the road led to some epiphanies and she just wanted to sort her priorities. She was taking the scenic route, taking photos, thinking about her future and having a good time on her own.
I suspect she found what she thought was a picturesque place but got the flat tires and subsequently left her vehicle.
The questions in my mind are:

Where is she NOW?
Did she walk away from the car, or did someone offer a ride? I think it's far less likely she was abducted, but it's possible.
If she walked away, where did she try to walk to? Back to the main road? Toward a light she saw in the distance? Toward a site marked on a map?
If someone gave her a ride, who? Where did they take her?

 

[azure]

Hopefully this link is good here. If it's removed you may IM me for it.

Could GPS devices be leading people to drive the wrong-way?

With the latest wrong-way crash on Wednesday, there have been nearly 30 incidents so far this year. Many drivers in the Valley have speculated why Arizona is such a problem area for this type of dangerous driving behavior.

www.abc15.com

I've heard of other instances, but don't have any MSM links, nor do I remember any of the details well enough to find them searching.

There is no way this is true for a millennial over a series of wrong turns IMO. I'm not far off in age from Chelsea and my phone is never not in my hand. She had two near-perfect navigational devices at her fingertips. Plus, she wasn't headed to some obscure, remote site. She was headed to the east coast, which from Arizona, is only accessible via interstate going east.

Most importantly, she also never mentioned to anyone she encountered that she was lost. IMO she wandered where she did by choice, though I'd argue she wasn't in her right mind.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

IMO she wandered where she did by choice, though I'd argue she wasn't in her right mind.

The only evidence I'm aware of that hints she wasn't thinking clearly was the report she tried to use a foreign currency to pay for something. That just gives me more questions -where did she get Euros??? Are we sure it was her?

 

[azure]

The only evidence I'm aware of that hints she wasn't thinking clearly was the report she tried to use a foreign currency to pay for something. That just gives me more questions -where did she get Euros??? Are we sure it was her?

I'd argue her meandering route was evidence she wasn't in her right mind.

She refused to fly cross country to a wedding because she insisted on taking her bearded dragon from San Diego to the east coast. Upon starting her drive, she almost immediately decided not to go to the family wedding because she couldn't make the drive alone and began wandering around Arizona. A police officer found her crying in a cemetery and she told him she planned to sleep in her car that night. There are red flags all over this case IMO.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

I'd argue her meandering route was evidence she wasn't in her right mind. A police officer found her crying in a cemetery and she told him she planned to sleep in her car that night. There are red flags all over this case IMO.

I have spent months at a time meandering, and I think being in a right mind is requisite. She kept her car on the road, herself and her pet safe, she was taking photos and she was living life. So many people cry in cemeteries I'm surprised they don't stock tissue paper graveside.
Sorry, but I really think she was just free-wheelin' for a while, and had a roadside emergency. Sadly, she then made the classic blunder of leaving her vehicle.

If there is just one mantra I wish I could instill into every person, everywhere it is "NEVER LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE". They will find the boat, plane, car, motorcycle, or skateboard...but they may never find YOU.

 

[iamshadow21]

I'd argue her meandering route was evidence she wasn't in her right mind.

She refused to fly cross country to a wedding because she insisted on taking her bearded dragon from San Diego to the east coast. Upon starting her drive, she almost immediately decided not to go to the family wedding because she couldn't make the drive alone and began wandering around Arizona. A police officer found her crying in a cemetery and she told him she planned to sleep in her car that night. There are red flags all over this case IMO.

Agreed. She sounds disorganised, scattered. We know she told the officer she had smoked, but it's more than that. There's some kind of disconnect gone on. She's following some kind of plan, perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be anchored in reality. We've seen it in other cases like this. Sometimes, there's been some kind of psychotic break. Sometimes, a head injury. Sometimes, severe emotional trauma leading to a dissociative fugue. And sometimes, we never know because we don't find them, or find them when it's far too late.

MOO

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

Agreed. She sounds disorganised, scattered. We know she told the officer she had smoked, but it's more than that. There's some kind of disconnect gone on. She's following some kind of plan, perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be anchored in reality. We've seen it in other cases like this. Sometimes, there's been some kind of psychotic break. Sometimes, a head injury. Sometimes, severe emotional trauma leading to a dissociative fugue. And sometimes, we never know because we don't find them, or find them when it's far too late.

MOO

I think I'd be more inclined to see it that way if I didn't know she was a photographer doing what photographers do. If she was a missing accountant doing the same things she is reported as doing...well, I could see your point more clearly.

 

[iamshadow21]

I have spent months at a time meandering, and I think being in a right mind is requisite. She kept her car on the road, herself and her pet safe, she was taking photos and she was living life. So many people cry in cemeteries I'm surprised they don't stock tissue paper graveside.
Sorry, but I really think she was just free-wheelin' for a while, and had a roadside emergency. Sadly, she then made the classic blunder of leaving her vehicle.

If there is just one mantra I wish I could instill into every person, everywhere it is "NEVER LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE". They will find the boat, plane, car, motorcycle, or skateboard...but they may never find YOU.

Having a family member with bipolar who refuses to be medicated or accept diagnosis... you'd be surprised. Our family member is mostly nomadic now, travelling a lot, sleeping out of the car, getting jobs, losing them. One side of the country to the other without warning. Clearly, from their messages, there are times when they are seriously skirting the line on yet another involuntary hold, but they're still out there. Their ideas about reality are very distorted. It's more than magical thinking. I'm sure that the people who have a drink at the pub with them think they're friendly and okay. They'd probably have to spend a few more hours with them for the distortions to be clear to a stranger, but they are there, and they're hardwired.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I think I'd be more inclined to see it that way if I didn't know she was a photographer doing what photographers do. If she was a missing accountant doing the same things she is reported as doing...well, I could see your point more clearly.

It's the extremes of emotion that flags for me more than the subject matter. Most people find graves of strangers a melancholy thing, but the floods of tears, it's like there's no filter. And she'd obviously been acting oddly for a while, for someone to notice and be concerned enough for a call to be made and the cop to actually come. No one thinks a person shedding a few tears at a cemetery strange. They wouldn't call the police for that. That tells me her behaviour was very odd indeed.

MOO

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

It's the extremes of emotion that flags for me more than the subject matter. Most people find graves of strangers a melancholy thing, but the floods of tears, it's like there's no filter. And she'd obviously been acting oddly for a while, for someone to notice and be concerned enough for a call to be made and the cop to actually come. No one thinks a person shedding a few tears at a cemetery strange. They wouldn't call the police for that. That tells me her behaviour was very odd indeed.

MOO

Yeah; okay...I do see your point.

 

[ch_13]

Hopefully this link is good here. If it's removed you may IM me for it.

Could GPS devices be leading people to drive the wrong-way?

With the latest wrong-way crash on Wednesday, there have been nearly 30 incidents so far this year. Many drivers in the Valley have speculated why Arizona is such a problem area for this type of dangerous driving behavior.

www.abc15.com

I've heard of other instances, but don't have any MSM links, nor do I remember any of the details well enough to find them searching.

If you actually read the article that's linked, the conclusion is no, GPS devices aren't the reason for people going the wrong way:
"But in Arizona where things are quite spaced out and the footprint's larger, I suspect that it's not really the issue," Pendyala explained. "...I suspect that GPS devices are probably not contributing all that much to wrong-way driving. I think it's more really just an error in judgment on the part of drivers."

This is a classic instance of Betteridge's Law of Headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

edit - I should also add that the article is about drivers who are literally going the wrong-way, as in trying to exit a highway at an entrance ramp. As far as I know Chelsea did nothing like that, so the article is not at all relevant.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

Having a family member with bipolar who refuses to be medicated or accept diagnosis... you'd be surprised. Our family member is mostly nomadic now, travelling a lot, sleeping out of the car, getting jobs, losing them. One side of the country to the other without warning. Clearly, from their messages, there are times when they are seriously skirting the line on yet another involuntary hold, but they're still out there. Their ideas about reality are very distorted. It's more than magical thinking. I'm sure that the people who have a drink at the pub with them think they're friendly and okay. They'd probably have to spend a few more hours with them for the distortions to be clear to a stranger, but they are there, and they're hardwired.

MOO

So...assuming she was in a deteriorating state, how would she most likely behave on a side road with two flat tires?

 

[10ofRods]

The only evidence I'm aware of that hints she wasn't thinking clearly was the report she tried to use a foreign currency to pay for something. That just gives me more questions -where did she get Euros??? Are we sure it was her?

I think taking all that time to get from SD to Phoenix is another, less obvious issue. Then there's the indecisiveness about whether to go east or west once she makes it to the 1-40.

LE is sure it is her at the motel - due to footage released and conversations with the motel staff. I take LE's viewpoint very seriously and believe that if they (and the motel people) thought it was her - it was her. She's distinct looking, there's camera footage at the front desk (apparently, it hasn't been released = but again, I do not think LE is lying to the press or the family).

The fact that apparently someone called LE out of concern for something strange or suspicious about her behavior in the cemetery (which I think is in Williams - so that was likely before the attempt to check in without a credit card at the motel in Seligman).

Then, she abandons her car, camera and laptop and takes her dragon on a backpacking trip.

There are also posts on both Instagram and FB that are concerning, to me. As @iamshadow21 has written, these behaviors are concerning to those of us familiar with mental health issues. Her family has said her mental health was sometimes an issue. Her father said she was frequently a "very spontaneous" person. She clearly led people to believe she had a plan to go to the East Coast, but she seems to have had no daily goals of driving to get there and abandons the idea on the third day, IIRC.

While she may have had some food and water in the car, I do worry whether she was carrying enough water for 2-3 days, much less the length of time she's now been gone.

She may have perceived her situation with the car as completely unfixable, but she was never prepared to live off the land indefinitely. The symptoms of some people with certain mental conditions does involve abandoning cars and setting off into the Unknown (Brian Laspisa's case comes to mind). This can be the beginning, IME, of a lifestyle of "mentally ill homeless." The desire to be off by oneself and not to have to care for complicated sets of possessions is a theme in this process.

IMO. I am not saying CG has a specific illness, only that she could have one and it seems fairly likely to me, after being involved in or watching cases that parallel this one.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

If you actually read the article that's linked, the conclusion is no, GPS devices aren't the reason for people going the wrong way:
"But in Arizona where things are quite spaced out and the footprint's larger, I suspect that it's not really the issue," Pendyala explained. "...I suspect that GPS devices are probably not contributing all that much to wrong-way driving. I think it's more really just an error in judgment on the part of drivers."

This is a classic instance of Betteridge's Law of Headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

edit - I should also add that the article is about drivers who are literally going the wrong-way, as in trying to exit a highway at an entrance ramp. As far as I know Chelsea did nothing like that, so the article is not at all relevant.

lol
Okay; my bad. I was looking for examples of GPS malfunction. I should have read it more closely before posting it.

 

[BaffleMe]

Agreed. She sounds disorganised, scattered. We know she told the officer she had smoked, but it's more than that. There's some kind of disconnect gone on. She's following some kind of plan, perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be anchored in reality. We've seen it in other cases like this. Sometimes, there's been some kind of psychotic break. Sometimes, a head injury. Sometimes, severe emotional trauma leading to a dissociative fugue. And sometimes, we never know because we don't find them, or find them when it's far too late.

MOO

I didn't know she told the officer that she smoked.

 

[iamshadow21]

So...assuming she was in a deteriorating state, how would she most likely behave on a side road with two flat tires?

She might have a complete meltdown. She might see it as a sign the Universe wants her to walk. It's impossible to guess from so little. She took her pet, her cards, etc. so she wasn't in a state so bad she was running through the woods naked. But that doesn't mean she wasn't in such a way that she wasn't a danger to herself.

The comments here bother me, so much that I went back through the thread to find it.

AZ - AZ - Chelsea Grimm, 32, traveling from San Diego CA to CT, car found Oct 5 on Forest Rd 6 near Williams, she was last seen in Williams, 28 Sep 2023

not all people like airplanes, especially after Covid. I get it, as a photographer myself, a road trip gives one opportunity, to explore, connect with nature, see different architecture/landscapes, try different food. I actually drove from California to Texas alone all through Route 66 and...

www.websleuths.com

Specifically:

Her father says she seemed uneven the past few days. He said, "I would say yes, but I also think it's fair to say she didn't seem completely 'even'. She seemed pretty uneven that last day or two."

He didn't say, she was upset, she was depressed, she was emotional, she was excited... he said she was UNEVEN.

And as someone with, as I have said, a family member who seems determined to light their own life on fire every few months because they'd rather that than look after themselves, uneven suggests to me that she was scattered, erratic, and emotionally all over the shop.

The choice to drive crosscountry rather than fly was literally made the day of the flight. Who does that?

A couple of days later, she isn't going to the wedding at all, she's camping! Wandering around Arizona, meeting up with a friend then cancelling on them the next day, trying to use Euros instead of USD, taking photos of missing posters and veterans graves and crying in cemeteries.

All her devices and cards go dark, and Chelsea vanishes.

The pattern here is pretty clear to me. Clearer than in some of these cases I've read about.

I think her thinking was distorted before she was even due on the flight that never happened. Being away from familiar landmarks and people just amplified and intensified the problem. And because of that, she is gone.

I do hope they find her. Best case, for me, I think is if they find her living homeless in some nearby city, and are able to get her help. But I have the feeling that her misfiring brain told her that her path, her adventure, or the answer she was seeking was... out there. And so she took her bank and ID cards, her sleeping bag, and her pet lizard, and walked out into the wilderness.

MOO

 

[ch_13]

lol
Okay; my bad. I was looking for examples of GPS malfunction. I should have read it more closely before posting it.

No worries. I sometimes skim articles too. I just wanted to correct any misapprehensions about the article that might arise.

IMO, It's not the GPS itself, but the road mapping software can lead you astray. However, the area in and around Kaibab National Forest gets a lot of activity so I'd be surprised if the maps were incorrect. (The more traffic an area gets, the more accurate the maps become.)

 

[BaffleMe]

She might have a complete meltdown. She might see it as a sign the Universe wants her to walk. It's impossible to guess from so little. She took her pet, her cards, etc. so she wasn't in a state so bad she was running through the woods naked. But that doesn't mean she wasn't in such a way that she wasn't a danger to herself.

The comments here bother me, so much that I went back through the thread to find it.

AZ - AZ - Chelsea Grimm, 32, traveling from San Diego CA to CT, car found Oct 5 on Forest Rd 6 near Williams, she was last seen in Williams, 28 Sep 2023

not all people like airplanes, especially after Covid. I get it, as a photographer myself, a road trip gives one opportunity, to explore, connect with nature, see different architecture/landscapes, try different food. I actually drove from California to Texas alone all through Route 66 and...

www.websleuths.com

Specifically:

Her father says she seemed uneven the past few days. He said, "I would say yes, but I also think it's fair to say she didn't seem completely 'even'. She seemed pretty uneven that last day or two."

He didn't say, she was upset, she was depressed, she was emotional, she was excited... he said she was UNEVEN.

And as someone with, as I have said, a family member who seems determined to light their own life on fire every few months because they'd rather that than look after themselves, uneven suggests to me that she was scattered, erratic, and emotionally all over the shop.

The choice to drive crosscountry rather than fly was literally made the day of the flight. Who does that?

A couple of days later, she isn't going to the wedding at all, she's camping! Wandering around Arizona, meeting up with a friend then cancelling on them the next day, trying to use Euros instead of USD, taking photos of missing posters and veterans graves and crying in cemeteries.

All her devices and cards go dark, and Chelsea vanishes.

The pattern here is pretty clear to me. Clearer than in some of these cases I've read about.

I think her thinking was distorted before she was even due on the flight that never happened. Being away from familiar landmarks and people just amplified and intensified the problem. And because of that, she is gone.

I do hope they find her. Best case, for me, I think is if they find her living homeless in some nearby city, and are able to get her help. But I have the feeling that her misfiring brain told her that her path, her adventure, or the answer she was seeking was... out there. And so she took her bank and ID cards, her sleeping bag, and her pet lizard, and walked out into the wilderness.

MOO

Why take bank cards if you're not going to use them?

 

[mcmlxxix]

lol
Okay; my bad. I was looking for examples of GPS malfunction. I should have read it more closely before posting it.

It's not typically a GPS malfunction, but rather a routing malfunction or outdated routing information. I know it's a minor distinction, but it's not really a technology problem. More of a data problem.

In this case, though, the road she was on is passable (assuming at this point) and doesn't appear to have an inaccurate representation on google maps. This doesn't seem like a case of getting lost but rather getting stuck.

I'm taking her desire to be off the grid at face value and say I think she went off the beaten path with intentions of not being located, as indicated by her desire not to leave a paper trail at the motel. Maybe she was planning to hurt herself and didn't want anyone to know, or maybe she's truly just trying to self-isolate and live in nature for a while.

I honestly can't think of any other reasons she would be so interested in staying off the grid that she wouldn't use the card and take the motel room after being told they don't accept Euros as payment. Not taking the room at all tells me she really meant it.