AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[Telltale]

So the witness's testimony could be off and it's possible that Mr Kelly fired more than nine shots and LE didn't find the shell casings. Thanks. JMO.

Or it could be some members of the migrant group also fired, but if that was the case I would expect it to be all over Kelly's defence arguement. While he mentioned 'exchanging gunfire' in his original call to LE, he doesn't appear to have brought that up again beyond that initial 'single shot' while he was eating with his wife.

 

[NuttMegg]

If they were the ones shooting him then yes they would remain to retrieve the weapon as well as any backpack and the contents.

Iirc bp said the body was "fresh". Kelly was the one who found the body. Why would he have wanted to disappear the backpack? There's just as much chance that he did it as anyone else. More, actually since he had the time to do whatever he wanted, at his leisure.

 

[Cool Cats]

You make good points, and I'm not sure why the questions you are being asked are so rigid.

If you grab the backpack, you get to take whatever it has in it. If you are there, you also can grab whatever is not in it. We don't know what was in it beforehand, and since it can carry additional items, we don't know what might have been added. At the same time, you can take and carry items NOT in the backpack without putting them in the backpack-- ie, an AK-47 could be carried in one hand (or slung over the shoulder, if there's a strap) and a backpack carried in the other (or worn on the back).

I can understand this easily. I have to think others who are objective and looking for truth can as well.

The FACT is, things were certainly taken. We don't know what they were. But it certainly opens the door for a gun to have been in the dead guy's possession (as Kelly says), and then taken away by one of the other invaders that day.

So rigid because people, in my experience, get defensive when a poster says anything favorable towards the defense. I like to look at defense strategies as well as the prosecution's evidence. Yes 9 times out of 10 the defendant is guilty as charged but nonetheless they deserve a robust defense.

Very well put, my point exactly, thank you:

But it certainly opens the door for a gun to have been in the dead guy's possession (as Kelly says), and then taken away by one of the other invaders that day.

 

[FLmom777]

Assuming cognitive issues simply due to his age is insulting when there has been nothing seen that would suggest that.

He is 75. It's reasonable to want to test his cognitive abilities. Him being younger than your husband does not make this less reasonable imo.

 

[NuttMegg]

Assuming cognitive issues simply due to his age is insulting when there has been nothing seen that would suggest that.

Not because of age, rather because of all the stories he told that don't match up when a man's life was taken.

 

[Telltale]

Just throwing it out there, IMO it seems likely he found the body before the fourth call. Started to panic and that's what prompted him calling up with a revised story with more immediate danger involved. Then made the decision to call LE in.

 

[Cool Cats]

Prosecution's witnesses have entered statements that items were removed from the crime scene? Yeah that definitely opens up reasonable doubt.

Also, poster is arguing the absurd but there are AK-47s that will fit in a backpack.

And as @SteveS said, if the victim did have an AK-47 on him, it doesn't need to be carried away inside a backpack. Simply sling over the arm.

I can understand why it would be in the witnesses best interest to lie and say the victim was not carrying an AK-47. Reasonable doubt is all the defense needs. As you point out, reasonable doubt is opened up for the defense.

Defense attorneys accuse prosecution witnesses of lying every day.

 

[Cool Cats]

Just throwing it out there, IMO it seems likely he found the body before the fourth call. Started to panic and that's what prompted him calling up with a revised story with more immediate danger involved. Then made the decision to call LE in.

I thought it interesting that someone pointed out that it is possible that he actually discovered the body before most or all of his calls, to establish a defense for himself, justification for shooting. Remember, the border agents saw no signs of anyone on or near his property.

I am looking at the case from both sides, prosecution and defense. I am taking no sides.

Alibi = "I was on my porch not near victim."

The 9 shell casings could have been planted on porch deliberately. Or his rifle was deliberately shot - from the porch - 9 times to establish that he was not near the victim.

 

[Telltale]

I thought it interesting that someone pointed out that it is possible that he actually discovered the body before most of his calls, to establish a defense for himself, justification for shooting. Remember, the border agents saw no signs of anyone on or near his property.

I am looking at the case from both sides, prosecution and defense. I am taking no sides.

It's possible, but then I would think that his calls would have been more coherent and consistent, less full of culpible details and more robust in building self defence.

That also brings us back around to - why call it in at all? If he knew he shot the man and wanted to 'get away with it,' he didn't need an alibi. Nobody would ever know. Hell nobody would have known after the LE went away after call 2/3. He was on his own in a 100 miles of desert. Drag the body back towards the boarder and leave it for the animals and the sun. Even if they came looking because a witness reported it - highly unlikely - well good luck finding it out there.

If it was ever found, well everyone knows this is a cartel corridor. Deaths happen out there all the time. The chance it would or could be linked back to him would be remote.

 

[rsd1200]

K's property is outlined in the googleearth. D.R.R. testified that he and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, the Mexican man killed on K's ranch, had paid for passage across the border from Nogales, Mexico, and were heading to Phoenix. ( Arizona rancher’s charge reduced; migrant recounts shooting )

Nogales, Mexico to Phoenix, AZ


Where Mr and Mrs K live, is on, or is very close to, one of the most dangerous areas on the border. It appears that Mr. K. had fenced the area around his immediate homeplace and garage.

Map of Home and Garrage from GoogleEarth:


Photos of Ranch: VERMILION MOUNTAIN RANCH

Security system: Safety is not an abstract concept for David Lowell, owner of Atascosa Ranch, where there have been break-ins and shootouts involving cartels and bandits. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered on his land.

I'm not making a statement for or against anything being built/constructed, just providing data about the area. I do find it odd that Agent Terry and the deceased in this case, GCB, were shot in a similar fashion.

Terry was 40 years old and had been a Border Patrol agent for less than four years. An autopsy found a single bullet from an AK-47 assault rifle lodged in Terry's body. It had entered Terry's lower back, severing his spinal cord and the main artery to his heart.

Four men, including one injured in the shootout, were arrested in Peck Canyon.

Border ranchers, in a world without a wall and Agent Brian Terry Shot in Back with AK-47 During Gunfight, Family Says)

Good site for photos and info of region: The Wall – Interactive map exploring U.S.-Mexico border

 

[Cool Cats]

It's possible, but then I would think that his calls would have been more coherent and consistent, less full of culpible details and more robust in building self defence.

That also brings us back around to - why call it in at all? If he knew he shot the man and wanted to 'get away with it,' he didn't need an alibi. Nobody would ever know. Hell nobody would have known after the LE went away after call 2/3. He was on his own in a 100 miles of desert. Drag the body back towards the boarder and leave it for the animals and the sun. Even if they came looking because a witness reported it - highly unlikely - well good luck finding it out there.

If it was ever found, well everyone knows this is a cartel corridor. Deaths happen in out there all the time. The chance it would could be linked back to him would be remote.

Exactly what I thought at first, and what you say is exactly what his attorney told the court.

Then I came up with a good reason why he couldn't bury the body. Well 2 reasons.

One is cadaver dogs. They can sniff out where a body is buried so he would have to figure out how on earth to lift and transport the body off his ranch and then how not to be seen. Then it is hard to take a shovel and dig through desert dried out hardened soil, let alone dig several feet down.

The other reason is because there were witnesses, the victim was with a group not solo. A lone man (body) on his property is easier to "dispose" of but add into the mix a whole lot of other people and it becomes much more difficult.

 

[WingsOverTX]

I thought it interesting that someone pointed out that it is possible that he actually discovered the body before most or all of his calls, to establish a defense for himself, justification for shooting. Remember, the border agents saw no signs of anyone on or near his property.

I am looking at the case from both sides, prosecution and defense. I am taking no sides.

Alibi = "I was on my porch not near victim."

The 9 shell casings could have been planted on porch deliberately. Or his rifle was deliberately shot - from the porch - 9 times to establish that he was not near the victim.

Kind of seems like overthinking to me. But I'll bite. What time of death was established for C-B (if we know)?

Laying in the desert for a few hours dead would seem detectable at autopsy to me, a non-expert on such things. Rigor mortis, etc.

I wonder what time the witnesses, aka his compatriots, say the death occurred.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I've only seen this little piece of information.

What do you think of the bullets trajectory? Entered in the lower back right side. Exited upper chest left side.

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

I know nothing about the sciencey-maths part of the trajectory of a fired round, but even knowing nothing it seems highly illogical that one traveling from the reported distance would have an upward trajectory, mainly due to simple gravity.
Rather, it seems like if it did make contact with the victim, the entrance wound would be higher than the exit wound, not the other way around.
The reported entrance and exit wounds sound like the weapon used would have been fired much closer to the deceased, like someone holding a weapon by their side, at waist height, not too far behind the victim.

jmo

 

[WingsOverTX]

Exactly what I thought at first, and what you say is exactly what his attorney told the court.

Then I came up with a good reason why he couldn't bury the body. Well 2 reasons.

One is cadaver dogs. They can sniff out where a body is buried so he would have to figure out how on earth to lift and transport the body off his ranch and then how not to be seen. Then it is hard to take a shovel and dig through desert dried out hardened soil, let alone dig several feet down.

The other reason is because there were witnesses, the victim was with a group not solo. A lone man (body) on his property is easier to "dispose" of but add into the mix a whole lot of other people and it becomes much more difficult.

They can't even find the majority of the men or people C-B was with. Nobody entering illegally is going to report anything about a death like this to any LE of any kind in either country.

I want to know who they paid to guide them "to Phoenix." But I bet we never will. Nor will we ever know their purpose for crossing unless the defense discovers it. The prosecution doesn't want to know. It might blow their case.

My opinion only.

 

[worm]

They didn’t release any updates today at all?

 

[Cool Cats]

Kind of seems like overthinking to me. But I'll bite. What time of death was established for C-B (if we know)?

Laying in the desert for a few hours dead would seem detectable at autopsy to me, a non-expert on such things. Rigor mortis, etc.

I wonder what time the witnesses, aka his compatriots, say the death occurred.

JMO

They can't even find the majority of the men or people C-B was with. Nobody entering illegally is going to report anything about a death like this to any LE of any kind in either country.

I want to know who they paid to guide them "to Phoenix." But I bet we never will. Nor will we ever know their purpose for crossing unless the defense discovers it. The prosecution doesn't want to know. It might blow their case.

My opinion only.

Bite away! ... LOL

From article:

"Previous reports stated that Kelly told investigators that he fired warning shots into the air after seeing men with AK-47s on his property. He then claimed to have found Cuen-Butimea’s body hours later, when he was checking on his horse."

 Apparently the body was laying for hours and yes I believe the coroner would be able to tell if a body was laying for hours as opposed to having been a recent death. If the coroner's report were to indicate the body was not laying for hours it would show GK is lying.

Yes, I would like to know what time the witnesses say they were shot at.

The defense will question the witnesses on the stand as to who was taking them to Phoenix and why were they going there - what were their plans? And the witnesses will have to answer.

How could this blow the prosecution's case if they get answers to theses questions?

2 Cents

 

[Telltale]

Exactly what I thought at first, and what you say is exactly what his attorney told the court.

Then I came up with a good reason why he couldn't bury the body. Well 2 reasons.

One is cadaver dogs. They can sniff out where a body is buried so he would have to figure out how on earth to lift and transport the body off his ranch and then how not to be seen. Then it is hard to take a shovel and dig through desert dried out hardened soil, let alone dig several feet down.

The other reason is because there were witnesses, the victim was with a group not solo. A lone man (body) on his property is easier to "dispose" of but add into the mix a whole lot of other people and it becomes much more difficult.

Fair point. The counters would be that the witnesses were illegal immigrants illegally entering the country. The chances of them reporting it was remote. If they did, well he could shrug and be like - don't know what they're talking about/ you already looked around we didn't find anything.

Even going whole hog on cavadar dogs and the like, which would be a lot of resources spent on an unsubstituted report by an illegal immigrant - that is a lot of land to cover. It's incredibly remote difficult dangerous terrain, extreme weather and wild desert full of scavengers. A fresh body would not last long and and forensic evidence would last even less. A body found near the boarder or even off his land and on someone elses (easily done in country that remote) - well tying it back to him would be hard. Hell look at all the holes poked in the prosecution argument when he himself called it in immediately and they went looking for witnesses/forensics etc.

Basically I'm saying if I were a bad man in that situation I would take those odds.

 

[Vern]

So Kelly got rid of the backpack he never saw but left the body were it was instead of moving it off of his property. Is that what you think happened? JMO.

She clearly stated "if" there was a backpack.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

She clearly stated "if" there was a backpack.

So no backpack is possible which means the witness could have been lying. JMO.

 

[shotgun09]

She clearly stated "if" there was a backpack.

Correct. She did..As in, creating reasonable doubt.
MOO