AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

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  • #481
Fair point. The counters would be that the witnesses were illegal immigrants illegally entering the country. The chances of them reporting it was remote. If they did, well he could shrug and be like - don't know what they're talking about/ you already looked around we didn't find anything.

Even going whole hog on cavadar dogs and the like, which would be a lot of resources spent on an unsubstituted report by an illegal immigrant - that is a lot of land to cover. It's incredibly remote difficult dangerous terrain, extreme weather and wild desert full of scavengers. A fresh body would not last long and and forensic evidence would last even less. A body found near the boarder or even off his land and on someone elses (easily done in country that remote) - well tying it back to him would be hard. Hell look at all the holes poked in the prosecution argument when he himself called it in immediately and they went looking for witnesses/forensics etc.

Basically I'm saying if I were a bad man in that situation I would take those odds.
Yes, his attorneys have a strong point in that GK reported the body and cooperated. That had he killed the man why call border patrol? Why not "get rid" of the body?

Your points make sense for "getting rid" of the body. Defense could point out that this was doable.
 
  • #482
It's possible, but then I would think that his calls would have been more coherent and consistent, less full of culpible details and more robust in building self defence.

That also brings us back around to - why call it in at all? If he knew he shot the man and wanted to 'get away with it,' he didn't need an alibi. Nobody would ever know. Hell nobody would have known after the LE went away after call 2/3. He was on his own in a 100 miles of desert. Drag the body back towards the boarder and leave it for the animals and the sun. Even if they came looking because a witness reported it - highly unlikely - well good luck finding it out there.

If it was ever found, well everyone knows this is a cartel corridor. Deaths happen out there all the time. The chance it would or could be linked back to him would be remote.
why, if he was so bad, did he call BP onto his property the second time? he called- they found nothing. why not just leave the body? don't find it. don't move it. If he really murdered the guy, I do not see why he called BP. IMO.
 
  • #483
why, if he was so bad, did he call BP onto his property the second time? he called- they found nothing. why not just leave the body? don't find it. don't move it. If he really murdered the guy, I do not see why he called BP. IMO.
Wow great point!

Just do nothing, never find it. Makes sense if he was guilty but he looks less guilty by calling it in.

Guilty people try to hide things.

This is probably an accidental killing and the jury should have lower charges to consider. He fired to scare them off, accidentally hit someone and it is reckless endangerment or manslaughter.

But then again, no bullet to prove the deadly shot was from his gun. His buddy could have accidentally killed him and is "framing" GK as his attorney ascertains.
 
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  • #484
I learned some interesting things about GK in this legal document. I hadn’t realized that he had purchased this property in 2002 with the intention of turning it into a resort. This passage from an appeal in 2013 of an earlier ruling regarding his contract with Kino Springs Golf and Ranch explains his background and intent. He had owned and operated an elite eco-resort in Montana during the 1980’s and 90’s and intended to do the same sort of thing with this property in AZ. The home he and his wife lived in was basically a model home, similar to five “lodge homes” that would be built and sold. The resort would offer horseback riding, hiking and astronomy. In the appeal, a new trial was granted, and I haven’t found any information on how that turned out. But obviously, the resort never happened, and the property is currently for sale. He has attempted to sell the property since at least 2018 at fluctuating prices, as high as $2,700,000. The current asking price is $1,750,000.

I can only imagine how frustrating it has been never to have achieved his goal of building this resort and gaining a substantial income from it. Here he is, stuck living in a desolate area at his age, “overrun” with illegal immigrants, “land rich and cash poor” as he put it. Does he blame them for his inability to sell the property? Who knows? But it certainly seems possible IMO. The book he wrote would indicate that it did. But FWIW this is all just conjecture until or if there is a trial.

ETA: JMO I still think that there was no justification for shooting anyone in the back, but I think his mindset will be a big factor in whether he is acquitted. There is obviously a lot of sympathy for him in those parts.


Link to real estate listing…


¶3 After establishing and running an "eco resort" in Montana for over a decade, the Kellys moved to Arizona in search of other development opportunities. In 2002, they acquired nearly 170 acres of land in Santa Cruz County through a land swap agreement with Kino, which was an adjacent landowner. The agreement required Kino "to reasonably cooperate with" the Kellys "in obtaining any appropriate zoning, abandonment, amendments to CC&Rs and replatting" for the Kellys' new planned resort. The agreement also called for Kino to "expeditiously" supply the Kellys' property with an electrical power line. The evidence suggested, however, that Kino failed to cooperate in reconfiguring the Kellys' land, and Kino did not provide a power line to the property until 2008.

¶4 The Kellys filed a complaint that year for breach of contract seeking, inter alia, consequential damages in the form of expenses and lost profits. The Kellys' development plans had included building and operating a resort called Vermilion Mountain Ranch, as well as constructing and selling five "lodge homes" on their property. They built one of these lodge homes in 2008, after power became available. Alan Kelly and a general contractor who served as a consultant on the project, Hector Ruvalcaba, testified it cost approximately $400,000 to construct the lodge home, which was consistent with Alan's ledger of expenses admitted as an exhibit. A real estate broker, Lois Cooper, testified that the value of the lodge homes in 2005 would have been $660,000 each. Alan thus testified the lost profits from the five lodge homes were at least $750,000.

¶5 In addition to seeking lost profits from these sales, the Kellys sought to recover their actual expenses incurred in developing the lodge home and in making other improvements that would not have been made unless the new resort could have been built as planned. According to Alan's testimony, these costs totaled $90,000, and they included the costs for water lines, a water well, a barn, corrals, and fencing.

¶6 With respect to the resort, Alan provided much of the testimony related to its lost profits based on his own expertise and past experiences. For nearly fifteen years, during the 1980s and 1990s, the Kellys had owned and operated a luxury resort in Montana called Eagle's Nest Lodge. Before starting this business, Alan had received a bachelor's degree in biology and had worked as a fishery biologist and project leader with the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. The Montana resort he operated with Wanda catered to an "exclusive clientele" and offered its guests the chance to fish along the Bighorn River, which Alan described as "the number one trout stream in the world." The resort also provided guests with opportunities to see the natural habitat, tribal lands, and wildlife in the area.

¶7 For twelve years during this same period of time, Alan also served in a partnership with a company known as Orvis. In this capacity, he evaluated the accommodations, activities, and dining offered by other luxury resorts in various states and countries for the purpose of providing Orvis's endorsement. He also developed the criteria for making such evaluations.

¶8 In regard to the Arizona resort, the Kellys apparently planned on funding it themselves, and Alan estimated his initial costs to construct the resort would be $2,405,000. He testified the resort would offer its clients horseback riding, hiking, and astronomy. Given his past experiences, Alan believed his planned ranch would attract similar clients as his Montana lodge because such clients primarily desire a new experience in different surroundings, and the "high-desert country" offered a unique habitat. Alan testified that he could have charged $1,000 per night for each guest, half of which would have been profit. He planned for the resort to accommodate up to twenty-four guests and to operate five days per week for six months of the year. Assuming varying occupancy rates between twenty-five and one-hundred percent between the years 2004 and 2007, Alan thus calculated his operating profits at $3,240,000, for a total of $835,000 in net profits that were never realized from the resort.
this is interesting because I thought that their "house" looked particularly nice and specially landscaped but in the middle of no where... knowing that it was/is a resort model- well, makes sense. IMO
 
  • #485
Your points make sense for "getting rid" of the body. Defense could point out that this was doable.
The much easier plan however, would be to concoct a drug-runner story -- one that he was already familiar with since he detailed these things in his novel. Plus, there are drawbacks to leaving the body there. The smell for one, the dogs etc., and the bones. Does he really want to attract coyotes to his property? What if the neighbor's dog brings home a skull one day, or a thigh bone, and people start asking questions, remembering the sound of gunfire. Maybe he considered it in the hours before making the final call, but no, too risky. It's not like there's nobody around out there. The Border Patrol at the very least is all over the place (I know because for a short while I lived near there, just south of Bisbee and right by the border, on a ranch).

The problem was, however that LE did't believe him. Times are changing in the southwest, and Arizona isn't as anti-immigrant as it was just 10 years ago. JMO.
 
  • #486
The much easier plan however, would be to concoct a drug-runner story -- one that he was already familiar with since he detailed these things in his novel. Plus, there are drawbacks to leaving the body there. The smell for one, the dogs etc., and the bones. Does he really want to attract coyotes to his property? What if the neighbor's dog brings home a skull one day, or a thigh bone, and people start asking questions, remembering the sound of gunfire. Maybe he considered it in the hours before making the final call, but no, too risky. It's not like there's nobody around out there. The Border Patrol at the very least is all over the place (I know because for a short while I lived near there, just south of Bisbee and right by the border, on a ranch).

The problem was, however that LE did't believe him. Times are changing in the southwest, and Arizona isn't as anti-immigrant as it was just 10 years ago. JMO.

They sure didn't believe him. I was shocked they immediately arrested him without an investigation, why?

I think it could be political as to why because politic high drama went through the roof when there was an earlier immigrant shooting by a couple of prominent people.
 
  • #487
The much easier plan however, would be to concoct a drug-runner story -- one that he was already familiar with since he detailed these things in his novel. Plus, there are drawbacks to leaving the body there. The smell for one, the dogs etc., and the bones. Does he really want to attract coyotes to his property? What if the neighbor's dog brings home a skull one day, or a thigh bone, and people start asking questions, remembering the sound of gunfire. Maybe he considered it in the hours before making the final call, but no, too risky. It's not like there's nobody around out there. The Border Patrol at the very least is all over the place (I know because for a short while I lived near there, just south of Bisbee and right by the border, on a ranch).

The problem was, however that LE did't believe him. Times are changing in the southwest, and Arizona isn't as anti-immigrant as it was just 10 years ago. JMO.
RBBM
What has changed is an unwillingness by the federal government to protect Americans from crime & drugs flowing over the border IMO.

I'm glad GK has a good lawyer. He deserves a vigorous defense as does everyone in the path of the heartless people who run the cartels. They value no lives, including those of asylum seeking immigrants. It's all about the $$$.

Whatever happened here is a mere drop in a bucket of a war full of powderkegs that is moving into the border states apace.

This microcosm of what is and is to come needs to be examined closely & the outcome will be very informative re: the willingness of our government to protect its citizens & enforce the law.

God help us all.

MOO & JMO
 
  • #488
They sure didn't believe him. I was shocked they immediately arrested him without an investigation, why?

I think it could be political as to why because politic high drama went through the roof when there was an earlier immigrant shooting by a couple of prominent people.
Yeah, I was surpised too, in Arizona that they would arrest him and charge him so quickly. I do think the rancher did it. I think he did it accidentally, but it was reckless and he is culpable. IMO. They called him a danger to society, and I would bet that this wasn't the first time that he "shot over the heads" of immigrants.
 
  • #489
Yeah, I was surpised too, in Arizona that they would arrest him and charge him so quickly. I do think the rancher did it. I think he did it accidentally, but it was reckless and he is culpable. IMO. They called him a danger to society, and I would bet that this wasn't the first time that he "shot over the heads" of immigrants.

bbm

Danger to society? Does Mr. Kelly have a criminal history in Arizona or any other state?

(The deceased has a Federal record.)
 
  • #490
bbm

Danger to society? Does Mr. Kelly have a criminal history in Arizona or any other state?

(The deceased has a Federal record.)
The deceased has a record of non-violent crime (illegally crossing the border)

I didn't say it, the prosector did. 'This type of unprovoked attack presents a significant danger to the victims and community,' Deputy County Attorney Kimberly Hunley said in the filing."

 
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  • #491
The deceased has a record of non-violent crime (illegally crossing the border)

I didn't say it, the prosector's did.

'This type of unprovoked attack presents a significant danger to the victims and community,' Deputy County Attorney Kimberly Hunley said in the filing.


And the deceased is the victim on WS, not GK.
 
  • #492
The deceased has a record of non-violent crime (illegally crossing the border)

I didn't say it, the prosector's did. 'This type of unprovoked attack presents a significant danger to the victims and community,' Deputy County Attorney Kimberly Hunley said in the filing."


Hhhmmm, haven't read that Society is, um, walking in the Arizona desert on land that Mr. Kelly owns.

We have other threads here in which The Accused or The Victim is considered to be a victim of the system. Mr. Kelly could be in that position as well imho.
 
  • #493
And the deceased is the victim on WS, not GK.

That appears to be true, here at WS. But, thankfully we can have a respectful and alternative 'view' regarding this case, without difficulty.
 
  • #494
bbm

Danger to society? Does Mr. Kelly have a criminal history in Arizona or any other state?

(The deceased has a Federal record.)
some commenters have said this area is dangerous because of the border

Rising crime in dangerous Mexico border town ... - Fox News

https://www.foxnews.com › politics › crime-caused-in-me...




Jan 27, 2022 — Sonora, the state where Nogales is located, is considered one of the most dangerous places in Mexico. Violent crime increased 46.4% in 2020, ...

But it is small:

Kino Springs​

Census-designated place in Arizona


Kino Springs is a census-designated place in Santa Cruz County, Arizona, United States. The population was 136 at the 2010 census. Wikipedia

and other people say itis quiet and they never feel unsafe

so which is it?
 
  • #495
some commenters have said this area is dangerous because of the border

Rising crime in dangerous Mexico border town ... - Fox News

https://www.foxnews.com › politics › crime-caused-in-me...




Jan 27, 2022 — Sonora, the state where Nogales is located, is considered one of the most dangerous places in Mexico. Violent crime increased 46.4% in 2020, ...

But it is small:

Kino Springs​

Census-designated place in Arizona


Kino Springs is a census-designated place in Santa Cruz County, Arizona, United States. The population was 136 at the 2010 census. Wikipedia

and other people say itis quiet and they never feel unsafe

so which is it?
I'm confused by one Kino Springs residents comment. From your link.

“I drive through here everyday,” Castillo says. “Late, early and never encountered anybody, I feel very safe living here in the area.”

She says it’s not unusual to see people who have crossed the border coming and going around the area but she says none have caused any major issues.
First she say's she never encounters anybody and then she say's it's not unusual to see people crossing the border. I don't get it. JMO.
 
  • #496


I wonder if one of the group of migrants panicked when Kelly fired the warning shots and inadvertently shot C-B in the back. JMO.
So how did the casing from an AK-47 end up on the rancher’s porch? Was he shooting an AK-47 too? Did one of the bullets he shot into the air fall down and hit the person? Didn’t he see him fall when the rest of them moved away? Or was the body found in another location? I have a lot of questions. I’ll read the article one more time. If they were trying to sneak them into the country, why were they close to the house? Questions!
 
  • #497
So how did the casing from an AK-47 end up on the rancher’s porch? Was he shooting an AK-47 too? Did one of the bullets he shot into the air fall down and hit the person? Didn’t he see him fall when the rest of them moved away? Or was the body found in another location? I have a lot of questions. I’ll read the article one more time. If they were trying to sneak them into the country, why were they close to the house? Questions!
Bbm
Good question.
Is it possible that the group didn't mean to get that close, but a competing group forced them closer to GK's residence ?
 
  • #498
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  • #499
It is not a stereotype. It would be naïve to think someone wearing tactical equipment who has crossed back and forth across our border multiple times was NOT in a cartel. Cartel members cross back and forth multiple times a day.

Violent cartels completely own the border. With millions crossing it has recently become a multi-BILLION-dollar enterprise for cartels. The cartels are a major force in the Mexico economy. Sex, human, child and drug trafficking, also gun smuggling are huge businesses. A single male with a (trafficked) woman and child gets across our border instantly.

An estimated 60% of Latin American children crossing the border are being trafficked for sex or drugs.

The Mexican state of Tlaxcala has been identified as the biggest source of sex slaves to the US. In 2015, five out of 10 of
Homeland Security's "most wanted" sex traffickers were from Tenancingo, in Tlaxcala. There were estimates that one in 10 people from Tenancingo were involved in trafficking.


20 staggering facts about human trafficking in the US

Smuggling Migrants at the Border Now a Billion-Dollar Business

How Porous Borders Fuel Human Trafficking in the United States

Violent drug organizations use human trafficking to expand profits
Wow! That absolutely horrific.
 
  • #500
So how did the casing from an AK-47 end up on the rancher’s porch? Was he shooting an AK-47 too? Did one of the bullets he shot into the air fall down and hit the person? Didn’t he see him fall when the rest of them moved away? Or was the body found in another location? I have a lot of questions. I’ll read the article one more time. If they were trying to sneak them into the country, why were they close to the house? Questions!
1. BP did not find the dead man the first time they came out... was he there all along?
2. Kelly comes out of his house and fires "warning shots" at 10 armed men? Not sure I would do that IMO.
3. How does anyone know or prove who else was there?
 
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