AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[clorenc]

Could they have been looking for water? Maybe they saw the horse and figured there must be a trough somewhere.

Or were they attempting to hide/shelter/find water in the barn? Would be interesting to know exactly where the body was found.

Does Kelly have more than one horse?

I’m no gun expert — is it unusual to have not located the bullet? Assuming it would have slowed down a bit passing through the body (and possibly a missing backpack). Could someone have taken it to hide evidence?

I’m having a hard time understanding how BP didn’t locate the body when they searched. I understand the acreage is vast, but it seems Kelly would’ve known the spot where he saw them. And I imagine vegetation is not so dense there, particularly in the winter. Maybe possible — but unlikely — that the body was moved for some reason?

I considered that maybe he didn’t die right away — that he could’ve stumbled around for a bit, tried to hide somewhere. But that doesn’t seem plausible if he was shot with an AK-47 in the back/chest. And I believe a witness (if he’s credible) stated he saw him grab his chest, roll his eyes, and collapse immediately?

I tend to sympathize with *undocumented* immigrants, as I was raised by one. But this is murky. Especially *IF* these migrants were engaged in violent activity.

Why live in a cartel crossing??

 

[shotgun09]

I have my doubts on this being a friend.

He also said he jumped over him to get away from gun fire. This didn’t make sense to me since he says he saw him clutching his chest and he saw his eyes roll back. If he had time to see that why jump over him?

The prosecutor KH did ask where he was in relation to GCB when he got shot. He said that he was behind him. She asked how close? He said ”one step”.

I think I might go back and revisit DDR's testimony. I sort of lost interest and had wandered thoughts during his testimony the first time I watched ( listened....he was not shown in court, there was a blank screen). The translator, the victim/ witness and the DA were all not shown...so you really really had to pay attention. Maybe tomorrow..

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I think I might go back and revisit DDR's testimony. I sort of lost interest and had wandered thoughts during his testimony the first time I watched ( listened....he was not shown in court, there was a blank screen). The translator, the victim/ witness and the DA were all not shown...so you really really had to pay attention. Maybe tomorrow..

I listened up until the lunch break. I need to finish it but not looking forward to that.

It’s hard to follow with the questions in English, then Spanish and the answers in Spanish and then translated to English. It needs ones undivided attention.

 

[Laughing]

Why live in a cartel crossing??

rsbm

The Kelly's bought land & built their home in southern Arizona, near the border. At that time, this was not an area of heavy cartel traffic.

Things have changed.

 

[Cool Cats]

RBBM
Is there a source for this statement about GK? Thanks!

There is a source for LE saying Kelly lied to them:

The detective testified that during an interview, he told Kelly it was time to “come forward with the truth” and that the charge of first-degree murder rested largely on Kelly making “inconsistent statements.”

Judge Rules Arizona Ranch Owner Will Stand Trial for Alleged Shooting Death of Illegal Immigrant

NTD - To uplift and inform society by publishing quality content that embodies integrity, dignity, and the best of humanity.

www.ntd.com

 

[WingsOverTX]

There is a source for LE saying Kelly lied to them:

The detective testified that during an interview, he told Kelly it was time to “come forward with the truth” and that the charge of first-degree murder rested largely on Kelly making “inconsistent statements.”

Judge Rules Arizona Ranch Owner Will Stand Trial for Alleged Shooting Death of Illegal Immigrant

NTD - To uplift and inform society by publishing quality content that embodies integrity, dignity, and the best of humanity.

www.ntd.com

Then the charge was downgraded to 2nd. I wonder what the basis for that was. Perhaps he's still overcharged?

I wonder if this has been picked up by any crime podcasters with uninvolved lawyers weighing in? I would like to hear some independent legal perspectives on this case (realizing, of course, that few of those can be posted here due to TOS).

MOO

 

[clorenc]

I believe this has been touched on previously, but I can’t grasp why, if they were (presumably) inside having lunch, he’d then go OUTSIDE after hearing a gunshot. Would seem counterintuitive to me, rather than stay hidden inside and peer/aim through a window. I don’t think he’d have a great vantage point from his porch, which appears to be ground-level. Clearly I don’t have any shootout experience, but I assume I’d feel exposed.

The Wild West.

 

[Telltale]

I believe this has been touched on previously, but I can’t grasp why, if they were (presumably) inside having lunch, he’d then go OUTSIDE after hearing a gunshot. Would seem counterintuitive to me, rather than stay hidden inside and peer/aim through a window. I don’t think he’d have a great vantage point from his porch, which appears to be ground-level. Clearly I don’t have any shootout experience, but I assume I’d feel exposed.

The Wild West.

I sort of assumed they were taking lunch under their porch, it seems to be a big wrap around one with a seating area from photos. Might be wrong though.

Should go back and examine the progression of his statements to police. There's no doubt there are inconsistencies there and they probably are fairly illuminating.

 

[clorenc]

rsbm

The Kelly's bought land & built their home in southern Arizona, near the border. At that time, this was not an area of heavy cartel traffic.

Things have changed.

Sorry, I meant that more as a rhetorical question. We have cartel activity in my area as well — although admittedly not on a border, and they’re hardly ever physically seen as our terrain is steep and vegetation is dense.

 

[Laughing]

I believe this has been touched on previously, but I can’t grasp why, if they were (presumably) inside having lunch, he’d then go OUTSIDE after hearing a gunshot. Would seem counterintuitive to me, rather than stay hidden inside and peer/aim through a window. I don’t think he’d have a great vantage point from his porch, which appears to be ground-level. Clearly I don’t have any shootout experience, but I assume I’d feel exposed.

The Wild West.

Discussed this a bit up-thread, but my lived experience includes time in Pinal County to the north of this location.

I was told by local LE there to avoid presenting as a victim.

Perhaps Mr. Kelly was given similar advice? Responding to gunfire with hiding -- may embolden the people trespassing on his property. Responding with awareness -- yes I see you, I hear you -- is a different message.

If he doesn't respond, does it seem reasonable that groups could pass closer & closer to the home, claiming more & more of the property?

The idea of 'an easy mark' should be considered. Mr. Kelly did not present as an easy mark.

As explained to me in Pinal County.

 

[worm]

I sort of assumed they were taking lunch under their porch, it seems to be a big wrap around one with a seating area from photos. Might be wrong though.

Should go back and examine the progression of his statements to police. There's no doubt there are inconsistencies there and they probably are fairly illuminating.

I haven’t seen much about how his story was inconsistent. Have they any proof that he was facing 10-15 armed people?

 

[clorenc]

I sort of assumed they were taking lunch under their porch, it seems to be a big wrap around one with a seating area from photos. Might be wrong though.

Should go back and examine the progression of his statements to police. There's no doubt there are inconsistencies there and they probably are fairly illuminating.

I considered that, but I thought I remembered reading that he had told his wife to stay inside as he went outside. But I — or the article — could be mistaken.

 

[clorenc]

Discussed this a bit up-thread, but my lived experience includes time in Pinal County to the north of this location.

I was told by local LE there to avoid presenting as a victim.

Perhaps Mr. Kelly was given similar advice? Responding to gunfire with hiding -- may embolden the people trespassing on his property. Responding with awareness -- yes I see you, I hear you -- is a different message.

If he doesn't respond, does it seem reasonable that groups could pass closer & closer to the home, claiming more & more of the property?

The idea of 'an easy mark' should be considered. Mr. Kelly did not present as an easy mark.

As explained to me in Pinal County.

Could not be me, if I thought I was already being shot at! Whew.

I appreciate your perspective and experience.

 

[clorenc]

This article states that two members of the group later “came forward” to law enforcement.

If that’s accurate, why would they volunteer to cooperate with U.S. LE if they were associated with the cartel? I believe they had already crossed back into Mexico.

I imagine the cartel wouldn’t bat an eye to losing one smuggler, but if they did take issue with it, they might take matters into their own hands instead?

Prosecutor: Arizona border rancher shot at unarmed migrants

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe this has been touched on previously, but I can’t grasp why, if they were (presumably) inside having lunch, he’d then go OUTSIDE after hearing a gunshot. Would seem counterintuitive to me, rather than stay hidden inside and peer/aim through a window. I don’t think he’d have a great vantage point from his porch, which appears to be ground-level. Clearly I don’t have any shootout experience, but I assume I’d feel exposed.

The Wild West.

Imagine hearing gunshots close by and then deliberately stepping onto your back porch and seeing a bunch of intimidating looking guys carrying gear and pointing AK-47's at you. What would be your first instinct?

Would you point a rifle back at them and shoot over their heads? Would you run into your house and hide calling 911? Would you drop your gun and put your hands up?

According to Kelly he pointed his firearm right above them and pulled the trigger, several times.

Is this plausable? Wouldn't you assume if a bunch of AK-47's are pointed directly at you that you might end up being in a hail of gunfire if you shoot at them?

My first instinct would not be to run back in the house because I WOULD STILL BE IN THE HOUSE!
I wouldn't step foot outside if I heard gunshot, in fact I know this because I have heard on rare occasions
what sounded like a gun being shot in my neighborhood. I even stayed away from the windows and just listened to get an idea of how close they were and from what direction.

And if I stepped outside and was faced with loaded rifles pointing at me I would jump back in the house or if necessary, drop my gun and put up my hands and yell "don't shoot!" "I'm unarmed!"

I do not believe that these guys were so close to GK 's house that he was able to clearly see several AK-47's being pointed directly at him. Plus, why even walk up to his house with guns drawn if he was just innocently sitting inside eating lunch - unarmed?

 

[clorenc]

Also, have I missed if it’s been stated anywhere whether LE did or didn’t find other shell casings near where he saw the group, indicating that they had in fact fired their own rifles?

 

[Cool Cats]

Also, have I missed if it’s been stated anywhere whether LE did or didn’t find other shell casings near where he saw the group, indicating that they had in fact fired their own rifles?

Good question.

AK-47 shell casings were found around on the property but they matched GK's gun.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Also, have I missed if it’s been stated anywhere whether LE did or didn’t find other shell casings near where he saw the group, indicating that they had in fact fired their own rifles?

I'm not very impressed with the LE investigation so far. Seems like they didn't like Mr Kelly's statements then one day later they arrested him and charged him with 1st degree murder.

Not sure if they cared to look for any exculpatory evidence. JMO.

 

[clorenc]

Imagine hearing gunshots close by and then deliberately stepping onto your back porch and seeing a bunch of intimidating looking guys carrying gear and pointing AK-47's at you. What would be your first instinct?

Would you point a rifle back at them and shoot over their heads? Would you run into your house and hide calling 911? Would you drop your gun and put your hands up?

According to Kelly he pointed his firearm right above them and pulled the trigger, several times.

Is this plausable? Wouldn't you assume if a bunch of AK-47's are pointed directly at you that you might end up being in a hail of gunfire if you shoot at them?

My first instinct would not be to run back in the house because I WOULD STILL BE IN THE HOUSE!
I wouldn't step foot outside if I heard gunshot, in fact I know this because I have heard on rare occasions
what sounded like a gun being shot in my neighborhood. I even stayed away from the windows and just listened to get an idea of how close they were and from what direction.

And if I stepped outside and was faced with loaded rifles pointing at me I would jump back in the house or if necessary, drop my gun and put up my hands and yell "don't shoot!" "I'm unarmed!"

I do not believe that these guys were so close to GK 's house that he was able to clearly see several AK-47's being pointed at him.

For me personally this would depend on many factors. Whether I was already outside, eating lunch on my patio, or I was inside. If I heard one distant shot, or many nearby shots. Whether I had the time and ability to assess how many guns I could make out. It seems that many of these details and the order of events have not been fully ironed out publicly yet.

I don’t think I’d give a “warning shot” if I saw that I was greatly outnumbered by many rifles pointed at me. I wouldn’t win that one.

But I am not exactly suited for this kind of desert border ranch lifestyle. I’d be living in constant alertness and fear.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Good question.

AK-47 shell casings were found around on the property but they matched GK's gun.

Are you talking about the nine shell casings found on the porch or some other casings from someplace else?